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I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

Lisa0315

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Clean up your own house first. Tell the woman oppressors to stop bearing false witness against us by calling us "the pro-death crowd".


Kettle meet Pot. We are not women oppressors and you are not women emancipators. Stop with the silliness.

There is a problem and SUPPOSEDLY, we are ALL in favor of decreasing the number of abortions. Or, are you saying that you do not care if the number increases from 47 million to 100 million per year.

If you want to be part of the solution, great. If not, you are the problem.

Do we all at least agree that we would like to see the number of abortions decrease significantly? Do we all agree that we need to find alternatives to abortion? If not, there is nothing to discuss.

Lisa
 
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LonesomeTexan

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Interesting, and sad. Not very "pro-life" certainly.

Hun, I'm pro Jesus. I want him to return to set us free from our sin. I want a world of everlasting peace. I want a world free of suffering. I want him to rule the earth as God rules the heavens. I want restored justice. If that doesn't make me pro life, then perhaps you could fill me in on what I'm missing.
 
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Ithinkimightbeanathiest

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A Canadian Prime Minister once said, “The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.” I personally think that summed everything up quite nicely. We can *hope* other people will conform to our morality and we can try to educate them, but we can't force them.
 
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Texas Lynn

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Kettle meet Pot. We are not women oppressors and you are not women emancipators. Stop with the silliness.

There is a problem and SUPPOSEDLY, we are ALL in favor of decreasing the number of abortions. Or, are you saying that you do not care if the number increases from 47 million to 100 million per year.

If you want to be part of the solution, great. If not, you are the problem.

Do we all at least agree that we would like to see the number of abortions decrease significantly? Do we all agree that we need to find alternatives to abortion? If not, there is nothing to discuss.

Lisa

There can be no common ground until seeking to criminalize abortion is off the table permanently.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. End of story.
 
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Texas Lynn

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Hun, I'm pro Jesus. I want him to return to set us free from our sin. I want a world of everlasting peace. I want a world free of suffering. I want him to rule the earth as God rules the heavens. I want restored justice. If that doesn't make me pro life, then perhaps you could fill me in on what I'm missing.

You can have your esoteric theology, but the comment prochoicers make you yearn for that mythological event is offensive. We are no more responsible for evil in the world than you are.

Suppose the concept "Jesus will return to rule in glory" is not metaphorical, what happens then with pregnancies? Magically aborted because that dispensation is over? No more pregnancies? And abortions? Do you envision "Christian Soldiers" (not the wannabe who posts here but real ones with swords) shutting down clinics? If so your Jesus is a fraud, more likely an invader from the Planet Xecuth in disguise than a god.
 
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Lisa0315

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There can be no common ground until seeking to criminalize abortion is off the table permanently.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. End of story.

Oh, how easy. Why didn't we think of that!

Lynn,
That is not a solution but another stubborn mindset that does not resolve the problem.

Life is precious regardless of when it starts, so we need to make sure that women have the tools and education they need to not start life if they are not prepared to nurture it. Then, if a surprise happens, society needs to step up and insure that that baby is loved and cared for in the manner it deserves.

Abortion is not the answer you think it is. The easy way is not always the best way.

Another thing that I always hate about these discussions is the fact that no one ever considers the fathers and families of these babies. Why is the man discriminated against in cases of abortion? He has zero say if she decides for an abortion.

Finally, where is God's will in all of this? While we are so obsessed with whether the mother's rights are infringed or if the baby has rights at all, has anyone considered the will of God for the mother, child and father?

I do not want to hear anymore about the rights of the mother or whether the child is life or not until someone can show me how it is God's will to end a pregnancy.

Seriously, Christians here who are Pro-Choice, please, what is the Bibical stance on this, and please do not say that it is not mentioned so it must be just fine and dandy. Apply some Spiritual Discernment here, if you please.

I would like to see one argument from a Bibical pov that can allow for abortion.

Lisa
 
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levi501

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Since no one has provided a medical source that the fetus is a parasite, why don't we just stop using that word?
Obviously reading comprehension wanes when emotive topics are discussed.

Parasitism. Classical definition - intimate relationship between two organisms in which one (the parasite) lives on, off or at the expense of the other (host).
http://www.aber.ac.uk/parasitology/Edu/Para_ism/PaIsmTxt.html

Biology students often ask whether the developing embryo (and later the fetus) within the uterus is parasitic on its mother. Under a strict definition of symbiosis, the parasite and its host typically belong to different species. However, under a general definition of a parasite, the embryo derives sustentance from the host (mother). Although the mother is not usually harmed, there are cases when the pregnancy causes serious (life threatening) complications. R. N. Nesse and G.C. Williams (Why We Get Sick, 1994) discuss the parasitic nature of the human fetus in their chapter on pregancy (pp. 197-200).
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/lmexer10.htm

American Heritage Dictionary
1. Biology: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

So how about we drop the bull that there aren't other deffinitions that don't require the host to be of a different species. What certainly isn't disputed is that the fetus has a parasitic like interaction with the mother.
 
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WatersMoon110

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Oh, how easy. Why didn't we think of that!
Yeah!

I think that my philosophy professor said it best, does anyone really believe that "well, kicking puppies just isn't for me"? Everyone has things they believe are wrong, and telling someone to just "get over" their objections is not very productive.
...[W]e need to make sure that women have the tools and education they need to not start life if they are not prepared to nurture it.
I completely agree. Proper education, better access to contraceptives, and looking into more effective forms of contraceptive are the way to prevent abortion.
Then, if a surprise happens, society needs to step up and insure that that baby is loved and cared for in the manner it deserves.
While there are some ways to get help for a baby or young when one doesn't have the financial means to care for them, I agree that there need to be more, and more effective ones!
Abortion is not the answer you think it is. The easy way is not always the best way.
Whoever told you that abortion is "the easy way" was mistaken. When it comes to an unintentional pregnancy, no choice is "easy" and all have their drawbacks. Abortion takes a lot of careful thought and is a difficult choice to make - but almost all of the women who make it feel that it was the best choice for them out of many bad options.
Another thing that I always hate about these discussions is the fact that no one ever considers the fathers and families of these babies. Why is the man discriminated against in cases of abortion? He has zero say if she decides for an abortion.
I think (or at least hope) than any women in a non-abusive relationship would talk with her partner before getting an abortion (and, really, they should talk about what they would do with an unintentional pregnancy before they consider having sex).

But, of the two biological parents, only one can have the "final say" when they disagree on what to do with an unintentional pregnancy. Since the unborn human is inside of the pregnant woman, it just makes sense that the final say should be her's.
Finally, where is God's will in all of this? While we are so obsessed with whether the mother's rights are infringed or if the baby has rights at all, has anyone considered the will of God for the mother, child and father?

I do not want to hear anymore about the rights of the mother or whether the child is life or not until someone can show me how it is God's will to end a pregnancy.
If God is all knowing and all powerful, and He does have a plan for everyone, then He can very well prevent a given abortion from happening, if He wants to.

If we are to trust ourselves to God's Plan, then we must understand that everything that happens is part of that Plan, including abortions in my opinion.
Seriously, Christians here who are Pro-Choice, please, what is the Bibical stance on this, and please do not say that it is not mentioned so it must be just fine and dandy. Apply some Spiritual Discernment here, if you please.

I would like to see one argument from a Bibical pov that can allow for abortion.
Sure.

Exodus 21:22-25
"When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
(The New Oxford Annotated Bible - New Revised Standard Version)

I feel that this passage clearly shows that God values unborn humans differently than He values born humans (as the death of the unborn is only worth a fine, but the harm of the born woman results in likewise compensations). Thus, I feel that God does not disagree with abortion in general.

And, given that the Ancient Egyptians had abortions, one would think that He would have said something in the Bible if He disagreed with the practice. But, the Bible is mysteriously silent on this (now) very controversial topic.
 
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Lisa0315

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Obviously reading comprehension wanes when emotive topics are discussed.







So how about we drop the bull that there aren't other deffinitions that don't require the host to be of a different species. What certainly isn't disputed is that the fetus has a parasitic like interaction with the mother.

Yes, reading comprehension is a problem. I said from a medical source, please.

I mean any idiot can define any word that he likes but that does not mean it is going to carry weight with anyone.

Lisa
 
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levi501

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Yes, reading comprehension is a problem. I said from a medical source, please.

I mean any idiot can define any word that he likes but that does not mean it is going to carry weight with anyone.

Lisa
parasite(par
sprime.gif
sabreve.gif
-s
simacr.gif
t)
  1. <LI type=1 value=1>An organism that lives on or in another and draws its nourishment therefrom.
  2. In the case of a fetal inclusion or conjoined twins, the usually incomplete twin that derives its support from the more nearly normal autosite.
http://www.stedmans.com/section.cfm/45

1. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/parasite


How we doing now girlfriend?
 
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Electric Skeptic

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Why should I apologize what is true.. You obviously do not have respect for the life of an unborn child and his right to life.
You are a liar. I have nowhere stated or implied this, and have repeatedly stated that the fact that the fetus is a parasite has no implications as to its worth.

And your attempts to "de-value" the child are both unscientific(since you can provide no info on your claim) and ignorant(because of your objectifying of the unborn child).
I have nowhere attempted to devalue the fetus or objectify it. Again you lie.

Your statement is obviously not fact, even if you think your claim is true, it still dosen't make it fact.. Since no medical or science book claims a fetus is a parasite. And as usual you have provided ZERO info on your outrageous claim..
That's nice.

A couple of highlights from the threads that Levi501 graciously linked to (and that Renton405 apparently falsely claimed to have read):

More on the fact that in medical terms, a pregnancy qualifies as a form of parasitism can be seen here in the the pre-eminent Obs/Gyn textbook in North America, Williams Obstetrics, from in Chapter 1 (2):
Quote:
In pregnant women with profound iron-deficiency anemia, for example, the iron stores of the fetus are normal; in pregnant women with severe folic acid deficiency causing severe anemia, the fetal hematocrit is normal. Fetal villious syncytiotrophoblast is remarkably efficient in extracting and sequestering essential nutrients from maternal circulation. The fetus is a demanding and efficient parasite! Thus..the demands of the embryo are met at whatever cost to the maternal organism.
I don't know how to link to a post in another thread, or I would, to Gladiatrix' excellent post 30 in the thread http://christianforums.com/t2174081-...-parasite.html

Or, from another thread:

Stedmans Medical Dictionary
Fifth Edition
ISBN 0-7817-4426-1

Parasite
1. an organism that lives on or in another and draws its nourishment therefrom.
2. In the case of a fetal inclusion or conjoined twins, the usually incomplete twin that derives its support from the more nearly normal autosite.
 
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LonesomeTexan

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parasite(par
sprime.gif
sabreve.gif
-s
simacr.gif
t)
  1. <LI type=1 value=1>An organism that lives on or in another and draws its nourishment therefrom.
  2. In the case of a fetal inclusion or conjoined twins, the usually incomplete twin that derives its support from the more nearly normal autosite.
http://www.stedmans.com/section.cfm/45

1. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/parasite


How we doing now girlfriend?
what makes your parasitic existance on this earth any more important than a human fetus? who are you to deny life to a human fetus?

this thread is going no where. only a fool would continue discussion with the godless.
 
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levi501

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what makes your parasitic existance on this earth any more important than a human fetus? who are you to deny life to a human fetus?
I believe only the mother has the choice because her right to bodily integrity supercedes the life of the unborn human.

this thread is going no where. only a fool would continue discussion with the godless.
...and yet you posted so what does that tell you?
 
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Texas Lynn

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Oh, how easy. Why didn't we think of that!

Lynn,
That is not a solution but another stubborn mindset that does not resolve the problem.

Life is precious regardless of when it starts, so we need to make sure that women have the tools and education they need to not start life if they are not prepared to nurture it. Then, if a surprise happens, society needs to step up and insure that that baby is loved and cared for in the manner it deserves.

Abortion is not the answer you think it is. The easy way is not always the best way.

Another thing that I always hate about these discussions is the fact that no one ever considers the fathers and families of these babies. Why is the man discriminated against in cases of abortion? He has zero say if she decides for an abortion.

Finally, where is God's will in all of this? While we are so obsessed with whether the mother's rights are infringed or if the baby has rights at all, has anyone considered the will of God for the mother, child and father?

I do not want to hear anymore about the rights of the mother or whether the child is life or not until someone can show me how it is God's will to end a pregnancy.

Seriously, Christians here who are Pro-Choice, please, what is the Bibical stance on this, and please do not say that it is not mentioned so it must be just fine and dandy. Apply some Spiritual Discernment here, if you please.

I would like to see one argument from a Bibical pov that can allow for abortion.

Lisa

Abortion has always existed and was never condemned in the Bible.
 
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LonesomeTexan

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I believe only the mother has the choice because her right to bodily integrity supercedes the life of the unborn human.


...and yet you posted so what does that tell you?
proverbs 26:4

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. (NIV)

I've been a fool by continuing to debate with people that don't seem to see the value in the lives of the unborn. Good bye and God bless.
 
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