I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[Electric Skeptic]

I don't believe that. The guilt is internal not external.

Do you have any independent evidence of the existence of this guilt? The (relatively few, of course) women I know who have had abortions have no guilt.

 

[Lisa0315]

Do you have any independent evidence of the existence of this guilt? The (relatively few, of course) women I know who have had abortions have no guilt.

Well, I do admit when I am wrong. When I went to an unbiased source, it said that a study showed 80% of women do not feel guilt or psychological stress after an abortion. Most feel relief having been stressed from the unwanted pregnancy.

http://www.webmd.com/news/20000822/study-says-most-women-dont-regret-abortion

This study is 8 years old now, so it may not be the end all beat all, but I admit being surprised to read this.

Lisa

 

[LonesomeTexan]

people on the wrong side of this issue truly make me pray that the end is near.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

biologically, we are all parasites. we cannot survive without other preying on other organisms. we leech off God's green earth everyday. that blows the fetuses are parasites arguement right out of the water.

That fetusses are parasites isn't an argument; it's simply a fact.

 

[Texas Lynn]

yeah.

Forget antibiotics.
Forget the light bulb.
Forget landing on the moon.
Forget the internet
Forget the CPU
Forget the television.
Forget brain surgery.

Free sex. That's what it's all about.

That's a mischaracterization. Considering how many women died from excessive childbirth it's nothing to sneeze about. It certainly is a major factor in increased female lifespans. Of course it also improved society as well.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I don't have to prove your post wrong. It is up to you to prove the opinions you post are factual. Links are common in such cases. Otherwise, its just a load.

IOW you have no evidence.

 

[Texas Lynn]

...knowing people like texas lynn who work in the social community(since her sn says social worker) makes me shudder. People in social work should not be viewing children and pregnancy the way she does. And many people who come to get help from a social worker are in a vulnerable position both mentally and physically..A woman who is pregnant needs real help and understanding, not being told that her pregnancy is a parasite and she needs to get an abortion right away..

There is of course no indication I have done as this poster irresponsibly accuses me. The Code of Ethics of the National Association of Social Workers ( www.nasw.org ) states

1.02 Self-Determination

Social workers respect and promote the right of clients to self-determination and assist clients in their efforts to identify and clarify their goals...

I have always adhered to such and the implication I have done otherwise is most unfortunate.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Well, I do admit when I am wrong. When I went to an unbiased source, it said that a study showed 80% of women do not feel guilt or psychological stress after an abortion. Most feel relief having been stressed from the unwanted pregnancy.

http://www.webmd.com/news/20000822/study-says-most-women-dont-regret-abortion

This study is 8 years old now, so it may not be the end all beat all, but I admit being surprised to read this.

Lisa

Among people of your views, you are a delight to communicate with because you are not blinded by ideology.

***

It appears to me such supports the point I made earlier how antiabortion people would better serve by seeking to change conditions desperate women face rather than making things worse by criminalizing abortion.

 

[Texas Lynn]

people on the wrong side of this issue truly make me pray that the end is near.

Interesting, and sad. Not very "pro-life" certainly.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

yeah.

Forget antibiotics.
Forget the light bulb.
Forget landing on the moon.
Forget the internet
Forget the CPU
Forget the television.
Forget brain surgery.

Free sex. That's what it's all about.

The light bulb is from the 19th century ya silly!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Interesting, and sad. Not very "pro-life" certainly.

yet another of the "abortion is murder!(but secretly, pregnancy is punishment)" crowd.

 

[Renton405]

I'm sorry, but the above is complete nonsense. Biologically, the fetus is a parasite. To recognise that fact says absolutely nothing about how you respect life or how you feel about your child. Recognising that a fetus is a parasite neither dulls or nulifys any connection, nor does it objectify the baby or make him at fault for any 'crime', real or imagined. It doesn't stop anyone from nurturing and loving it, nor does it impact any psychological connection.

In short, it's merely a scientifically accurate label which, apparently, you don't like. Sorry, but that doesn't stop it from being accurate, and it doesn't mean any of what you claim above.

Tell me, do other scientifically accurate terms like 'zygote', 'blastocyst', and 'fetus' also draw the same ire from you?

where does it say that a fetus is a parasite?? There is no scientific label that is fetus is a parasite. the time it is used, is by the pro-death group.. A parasite by definition is something that lives off a host from a DIFFERENT SPECIES. Tapeworm, fleas, and hookworms are examples of parasites, not an unborn child. And nowhere does it say in a science book that a fetus is a parasite..

The only reason why you like to conclude that a child is a "parasite" is to justify the murdering of the child through abortion. Unfortunatly the moral consequence will always be staring at you in the face, no matter how much you try to nullify it..

1. a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
   
   b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

1. a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
   b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.
2. a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite. b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.
3. a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.). b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.
4. a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human). b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.
5. a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.) b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.
6. a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce. b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.
7. a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives). b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

A parasite is an organism that associates with the host in a negative, unhealthy and nonessential (nonessential to the host) manner which will often damage the host and detrimentally affect the procreative capacity of the host (and species).
A human embryo or fetus is a human being that associates with the mother in a positive,healthful essential manner necessary for the procreation of the species.

[This data was compiled by Thomas L. Johnson, Professor of Biology, Mary Washington College, Fredericksburg, VA. Professor Johnson teaches Chordate Embryology and Parasitology. This is reprinted, with the author's permission, from the National Right to Life News, April-May, 1974. It also appears in "The Position of Modern Science on the Beginning of Human Life," by Scientists for Life. $1.75 plus postage for two ounces for each copy to: Sun Life, 2399 Cool Springs Road, Thaxton, VA 24174, 540/586-4898.]
Note: When some people claim preborn children are parasites, they mean "parasite" in its pejorative, that is, in its social-ethical sense. Prof. Johnson's article addresses only the biological meaning of "parasite." Libertarians for Life responds to the pejorative sense in other articles. Briefly, as libertarians, we strongly agree that women as well as men have the right to control their own bodies. Nonetheless, we hold that under principles of individual liberty, parents have the obligation to support their dependent children. Our children have a right to our support, whether they are in the crib or in the womb.




its funny people can't tell the difference between a tapeworm and an unborn child. but such people exist I guess..Whether either its you being uneducated, ignorant, or just hateful of children I do not know. but you have an obvious character flaw when it involves the respect to human life..

 

[Electric Skeptic]

where does it say that a fetus is a parasite??

In the definition of 'parasite'. There's an old thread in here discussing that very point. Dig it up if you like. I'm not really interested in a discussion on whether or not the fetus is a parasite.

the time it is used, is by the pro-death group.

There is no 'pro-death' group.

A parasite by definition is something that lives off a host.

The mother is the host; the fetus is the parasite.

The only reason why you like to conclude that a child is a "parasite" is to justify the murdering of the child through abortion.

Wrong, since the fact that it is a parasite in no way says anything about any moral issues. You seem to think the fact that it's a parasite means something other than what it means. It doesn't.

Oh, and abortion isn't murder.

Unfortunatly the moral consequence will always be staring at you in the face, no matter how much you try to nullify it..

Yes, but not the moral consequence you believe.

1. a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
   
   b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

1. a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
   b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.
2. a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite. b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.
3. a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.). b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.
4. a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human). b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.
5. a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.) b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.
6. a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce. b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.
7. a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives). b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

A parasite is an organism that associates with the host in a negative, unhealthy and nonessential (nonessential to the host) manner which will often damage the host and detrimentally affect the procreative capacity of the host (and species).
A human embryo or fetus is a human being that associates with the mother in a positive,healthful essential manner necessary for the procreation of the species.

I'm aware of all of the above. The fetus is a parasite in every way. The only common criteria in which it fails is that it is of the same species as the host. However, a bit of digging will get you plenty of biological references which state that that is usual, but not a requirement. But hey, if you want to say that the fetus is exactly like a parasite in every way except that it's of the same species as the host, go right ahead.

The fetus is frequently damaging to the host's health, it is nonessential to the host, it procures nourishment directly from the host, is metabolically dependent upon the host, and so forth.

Note: When some people claim preborn children are parasites, they mean "parasite" in its pejorative, that is, in its social-ethical sense.

Do they? Not in my experience. The fetus is, biologically, a parasite.

...under principles of individual liberty, parents have the obligation to support their dependent children. Our children have a right to our support, whether they are in the crib or in the womb.

By definition, a child is born. There are no children 'in the womb'. Using inaccurate but emotive language like this helps nobody.

its funny people can't tell the difference between a tapeworm and an unborn child. but such people exist I guess.

Do they? None that I've ever encountered.

Whether either its you being uneducated, ignorant, or just hateful of children I do not know.

You seem to think that I can't tell the difference between a tapeworm and an 'unborn child' (a contradiction in terms by which I guess you mean fetus). You are wrong. The fact that a tapeworm and a fetus are both biologically parasites says nothing about how I feel about children, but your pathetic insult is noted.

but you have an obvious character flaw when it involves the respect to human life..

No, I do not. Again, however, your pathetic insult is noted. It's sad that you have to resort to insulting someone when you can't convince them of something.

 

[Renton405]

In the definition of 'parasite'. There's an old thread in here discussing that very point. Dig it up if you like. I'm not really interested in a discussion on whether or not the fetus is a parasite.


There is no 'pro-death' group.


The mother is the host; the fetus is the parasite.


Wrong, since the fact that it is a parasite in no way says anything about any moral issues. You seem to think the fact that it's a parasite means something other than what it means. It doesn't.

Oh, and abortion isn't murder.


Yes, but not the moral consequence you believe.

I'm aware of all of the above. The fetus is a parasite in every way. The only common criteria in which it fails is that it is of the same species as the host. However, a bit of digging will get you plenty of biological references which state that that is usual, but not a requirement. But hey, if you want to say that the fetus is exactly like a parasite in every way except that it's of the same species as the host, go right ahead.

The fetus is frequently damaging to the host's health, it is nonessential to the host, it procures nourishment directly from the host, is metabolically dependent upon the host, and so forth.


Do they? Not in my experience. The fetus is, biologically, a parasite.


By definition, a child is born. There are no children 'in the womb'. Using inaccurate but emotive language like this helps nobody.


Do they? None that I've ever encountered.


You seem to think that I can't tell the difference between a tapeworm and an 'unborn child' (a contradiction in terms by which I guess you mean fetus). You are wrong. The fact that a tapeworm and a fetus are both biologically parasites says nothing about how I feel about children, but your pathetic insult is noted.


No, I do not. Again, however, your pathetic insult is noted. It's sad that you have to resort to insulting someone when you can't convince them of something.

By definition a fetus is not classified as a parasite. There are a list of organisms that are parasites, and a fetus is not in that list. So you conclusion is uneducated and ignorant(as well as disrespectful to human life)

And by your thinking, then everything is a parasite. You yourself are a parasite then, because you consume resources, emit waste(which increases disease), deplete surplus, spread bacteria, consume oil, and are dependant corporatly.

Should you be killed , electric? Because you are a parasite to this world based on your definition? Since you base humanity on age, an 80 year old would be justified in killing you because you are a parasite to this world..

Why don't you preach what you practice electric?? if your so concerned about the parasitic nature of humans why don't you take yourself out??

 

[Electric Skeptic]

By definition a fetus is not classified as a parasite. There are a list of organisms that are parasites, and a fetus is not in that list. So you conclusion is uneducated and ignorant(as well as disrespectful to human life)

False. Chase up the old thread if you want; I don't care whether you accept the fact or not.

And by your thinking, then everything is a parasite. You yourself are a parasite then, because you consume resources, emit waste(which increases disease), deplete surplus, spread bacteria, consume oil, and are dependant corporatly.

Umm...no. Parasites are parasitic on another organism.

Should you be killed , electric? Because you are a parasite to this world based on your definition? Since you base humanity on age, a 80 year old would be justified in killing you because you are a parasite to this world..

This is just idiotic. How many times do I need to say that the fact that the fetus is a parasite says nothing at all about its worth or any moral issues? Point out anywhere that I have said or implied that because the fetus is a parasite, it can or should be aborted.

Why don't you preach what you practice electric?? if your so concerned about the parasitic nature of humans why don't you take yourself out??

Strawman again. I'm not in the least "concerned" about the parasitic nature of humans which you imagine; I'm not even "concerned" about the fact that fetusses are parasites. And I have nowhere stated or implied that because fetusses are parasites they can or should be aborted.

 

[Renton405]

False. Chase up the old thread if you want; I don't care whether you accept the fact or not.


Umm...no. Parasites are parasitic on another organism.


This is just idiotic. How many times do I need to say that the fact that the fetus is a parasite says nothing at all about its worth or any moral issues? Point out anywhere that I have said or implied that because the fetus is a parasite, it can or should be aborted.


Strawman again. I'm not in the least "concerned" about the parasitic nature of humans which you imagine; I'm not even "concerned" about the fact that fetusses are parasites. And I have nowhere stated or implied that because fetusses are parasites they can or should be aborted.

food, air, oil are all mirco-organisms that you are dependant on.. instead of yelling strawman at every statement you can't answer why don't you really think about it. Think about how you can call an unborn child a parasite when you are just as much a parasite to the surplus of this world as a baby to the surplus of her/his mother(which is alot less than you take)..

And since both species are the same an unborn child is not a parasite by definition. So you are just making stuff up by your own evil imagination. You cannot force definitions in a science book my friend..No matter how hard you try to justify..

it dosen't matter whether you think they should be aborted or not. You are trying to devalue the unborn child in order to take away the sting of guilt that abortion has. You speak only to justify, and nothing else. Scientifically and morally you are lacking in every way..

 

[IzzyPop]

food, air, oil are all mirco-organisms that you are dependant on.. instead of yelling strawman at every statement you can't answer why don't you really think about it. Think about how you can call an unborn child a parasite when you are just as much a parasite to the surplus of this world as a baby to the surplus of her/his mother(which is alot less than you take)..

The reason being is that you are not making sound arguments. You are twisting words and creating fallacious arguments and expecting people to respond to them. Try discussing something rationally and you will find people are a lot more likely to go along than when you rant, foam at the mouth, and insult them.

And since both species are the same an unborn child is not a parasite by definition. So you are just making stuff up by your own evil imagination.

I find it funny that you insist on calling abortion murdering children when it is neither one, but have this problem with a definition of parasite. If you get to redefine words, why can't someone else?

it dosen't matter whether you think they should be aborted or not.

Same goes for you.

You are trying to devalue the unborn child in order to take away the sting of guilt that abortion has. You speak only to justify, and nothing else. Scientifically and morally you are lacking in every way..

And the same can be said for you. You are devaluing the women in order to justify your own twisted moral values.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

food, air, oil are all mirco-organisms that you are dependant on.. instead of yelling strawman at every statement you can't answer why don't you really think about it. Think about how you can call an unborn child a parasite when you are just as much a parasite to the surplus of this world as a baby to the surplus of her/his mother(which is alot less than you take).

Parasites are parasitic on another organism. A fetus is; I am not.

And since both species are the same an unborn child is not a parasite by definition. So you are just making stuff up by your own evil imagination. You cannot force definitions in a science book my friend..No matter how hard you try to justify..

Chase up the old thread if you want to. As I say, I don't care if you accept the fact or not.

it dosen't matter whether you think they should be aborted or not. You are trying to devalue the unborn child in order to take away the sting of guilt that abortion has.

You lie. You have no basis for making any statement as to why I make my statement, particularly as I have said repeatedly that the fact that the fetus is a parasite does not devalue it. Nor does any 'sting' you imagine need to be taken away.

You speak only to justify, and nothing else. Scientifically and morally you are lacking in every way..

You have no basis whatsoever for drawing any conclusions about my morals from anything I have stated on this issue.

First you had to resort to insulting me, now you have to resort to making false accusations as to my motives? How sad for you.

 

[Renton405]

Parasites are parasitic on another organism. A fetus is; I am not.


Chase up the old thread if you want to. As I say, I don't care if you accept the fact or not.


You lie. You have no basis for making any statement as to why I make my statement, particularly as I have said repeatedly that the fact that the fetus is a parasite does not devalue it. Nor does any 'sting' you imagine need to be taken away.


You have no basis whatsoever for drawing any conclusions about my morals from anything I have stated on this issue.

First you had to resort to insulting me, now you have to resort to making false accusations as to my motives? How sad for you.

Find one science or medical book where it says a fetus is a parasite..

Go .. run along..

P.S. - I find it ironic how you deny your "parasitic" nature to this world. Yet are so quick to call others "parasites".. A good sign of your hypocrisy and how you truely don't practice what you preach..

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Find one science or medical book where it says a fetus is a parasite..

See the other thread for further arguments on the subject. I don't care whether you accept the fact or not.

P.S. - I find it ironic how you deny your "parasitic" nature to this world. Yet are so quick to call others "parasites".. A good sign of your hypocrisy and how you truely don't practice what you preach..

I've stated twice why born humans aren't biologically parasites; if you want to ignore the reason, feel free.

I do, however, note that once again you have to resort to insulting me because you can't make your point otherwise. That's several insults, a false accusation, and failed attempts to tell me my motives. You really should stick to discussing the issues, rather than getting angry and attacking those who refuse to disagree with you.