I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[Romanseight2005]

Then why is it possible for unmarried couples to get pregnant?

Also, why don't female humans go into heat, like cats? Why do we have sex when there is no chance of getting pregnant? If sex was only "designed" for procreation, why doesn't it result in new life every time we have it? Either you are wrong, or God made a mistake (wonder which?).

First of all he is not saying that sex is only for childbearing, but that childbearing can always come from sex, and should always be expected as a great possibility. Why is it possible for unmarried persons to have sex? For the same reason it is possible for people to commit murder. It's called free choice. We do have the choice to do the wrong thing. Having the choice to do the wrong thing does not give us the choice to get out of the consequences of that wrong choice though.

 

[livingword26]

Prove it.

I don't have to prove your post wrong. It is up to you to prove the opinions you post are factual. Links are common in such cases. Otherwise, its just a load.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Actually, it is pretty darn important to our society. Women have been able to leave the home, get advanced educations and go to work, contributing to the economy and to the advancement of the professions in general. (What woman would have gone through law school or medical school knowing that the day she became sexually active her career was on borrowed time?)

Not to mention that women have been able to demand to be treated as citizens equal to men now that they have some control over their reproductive lives and their value to society is no longer measured by how great a percentage of their adult life they can be barefoot and pregnant.

(And some people find that so threatening...)

Sorry, but sex-for-fun takes a back seat to vaccinations for polio.

 

[WatersMoon110]

First of all he is not saying that sex is only for childbearing, but that childbearing can always come from sex, and should always be expected as a great possibility. Why is it possible for unmarried persons to have sex? For the same reason it is possible for people to commit murder. It's called free choice. We do have the choice to do the wrong thing.

Well, that does make more sense, but that isn't what was said:

Sex is designed to create a baby, in the sanctity of marriage.

I just don't believe this to be true (though, to be fair, I also don't believe sex to be "designed").

Having the choice to do the wrong thing does not give us the choice to get out of the consequences of that wrong choice though.

Are you saying that raising children should be viewed as a "consequence"? I thought that pregnancy was supposed to be a gift, not a punishment?

 

[Romanseight2005]

It is a gift not a punishment, but it is the fruit of sex. This should be looked upon as a reward, but whether you see pregnancy as a consequence or a reward, it is the fruit of the choice. The reason I used the term consequence was to relate it to the bigger picture that you were bringing into this conversation. It seemed to me that you were basically saying that we should not be able to do anything that we shouldn't do, and I was simply showing that we can do a lot of things that we shouldn't do. When we do things we shouldn't do, there are consequences. Having sex outside of marriage can have lots of consequences such as diseases including ones that lead to death. Getting pregnant when the people involved are not ready for the responsibilities of parenthood, is going to have consequences with it. The child will be a wonderful blessing, but raising that child will be so much more difficult. Getting an abortion is simply a way to not have to deal with the consequences of raising a child while you are not ready to do so, or dealing with going through with the pregnancy, then giving the child up for adoption. See the child is still a blessing either way, but there are still consequences from making bad choices.

 

[Renton405]

btw, I believe pregnancy is more detrimental to a woman's body than abortion.

Maybe they shouldnt get pregnant then? That way a child dosen't have to suffer because of someones irresponsibility..Why should another child have to suffer because of someones irresponsibility? ..a woman who gets an abortion because of "stretch marks" is absolutely a heartless and selfless woman full of vanity. Imagine killing your own child because of stretch marks..that is bottom of the barrel

lol, were you frothing at the mouth when you typed this?

No, but knowing people like texas lynn who work in the social community(since her sn says social worker) makes me shudder. People in social work should not be viewing children and pregnancy the way she does. And many people who come to get help from a social worker are in a vulnerable position both mentally and physically..A woman who is pregnant needs real help and understanding, not being told that her pregnancy is a parasite and she needs to get an abortion right away..

 

[Electric Skeptic]

It is a gift not a punishment, but it is the fruit of sex. This should be looked upon as a reward, but whether you see pregnancy as a consequence or a reward, it is the fruit of the choice. The reason I used the term consequence was to relate it to the bigger picture that you were bringing into this conversation. It seemed to me that you were basically saying that we should not be able to do anything that we shouldn't do, and I was simply showing that we can do a lot of things that we shouldn't do. When we do things we shouldn't do, there are consequences. Having sex outside of marriage can have lots of consequences such as diseases including ones that lead to death. Getting pregnant when the people involved are not ready for the responsibilities of parenthood, is going to have consequences with it. The child will be a wonderful blessing, but raising that child will be so much more difficult. Getting an abortion is simply a way to not have to deal with the consequences of raising a child while you are not ready to do so, or dealing with going through with the pregnancy, then giving the child up for adoption. See the child is still a blessing either way, but there are still consequences from making bad choices.

And you haven't evidenced that having sex is a 'bad choice'.

Any sex act, contracepted or not, can, of course, lead to a pregnancy. Anyone who doesn't know and accept that is an idiot. However, that's not the issue. Everyone does know and accept that. The problem lies in how people deal with unwanted pregnancies. Abortion is a method of dealing with that consequence. It might be a method you don't approve of, but it's still a method. So saying it's just avoiding dealing with the consequences is false.

It's obvious you're firmly against abortion - may I ask, what is your position on sex education to children and on availability of contraception?

 

[Romanseight2005]

Sex education is not telling them to go out have have sex, which is what handing out contraception is. They absolutely should be educated, but they should be educated about the full realities with sex, and why we need to learn self control, as well as why it should be reserved for marriage.

Your description of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy is akin to murder being a solution for an annoying neighbor.

The bad choice is in doing something that you know has a high probability of creating a pregnancy, and not being prepared for that pregnancy.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Sex education is not telling them to go out have have sex, which is what handing out contraception is. They absolutely should be educated, but they should be educated about the full realities with sex, and why we need to learn self control, as well as why it should be reserved for marriage.

'Educated' about what? How to practise safe sex (including instructions about such things as condom use, IUD use, etc) as well as other aspects of sex?

I've seen nobody advocate "handing out contraception". Making contraception easily available is vastly different. Do you support that?

Your description of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy is akin to murder being a solution for an annoying neighbor.

No, it's not, since in an abortion nobody is being murdered and an annoying neighbour isn't biologically a parasite.

The bad choice is in doing something that you know has a high probability of creating a pregnancy, and not being prepared for that pregnancy.

Except that (a) sex with adequate contraception has a very low probability of creating a preganancy and (b) if you are prepared to deal with a pregnancy (including by aborting it) then you are prepared for that pregnancy.

 

[Renton405]

No, it's not, since in an abortion nobody is being murdered and an annoying neighbour isn't biologically a parasite.

And cows produce orange juice..

 

[Electric Skeptic]

And cows produce orange juice..

No, they do not.

 

[Romanseight2005]

'Educated' about what? How to practise safe sex (including instructions about such things as condom use, IUD use, etc) as well as other aspects of sex?

Educated on the realities of the consequences of sex outside of marriage, and the purpose of, value in, and how to have, and live a life characterized by self control.

I've seen nobody advocate "handing out contraception". Making contraception easily available is vastly different. Do you support that?

Moot point since they are easily available.

No, it's not, since in an abortion nobody is being murdered and an annoying neighbour isn't biologically a parasite.

It is a perfect analogy since the reason for getting the abortion would be the same.(The pregnancy is seen as an annoyance) Also, abortion is murder. It is very scary indeed when we start calling humans, parasites. Many dangerous people have called people parasites and committed mass genocide. To call one's own offspring a parasite is unfathomable.


Except that (a) sex with adequate contraception has a very low probability of creating a preganancy and (b) if you are prepared to deal with a pregnancy (including by aborting it) then you are prepared for that pregnancy.[/quote]

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Educated on the realities of the consequences of sex outside of marriage, and the purpose of, value in, and how to have, and live a life characterized by self control.

So you don't support comprehensive sex education?

Moot point since they are easily available.

No, they're not. Do you support their free distribution to students through schools?

It is a perfect analogy since the reason for getting the abortion would be the same.(The pregnancy is seen as an annoyance)

It's not a perfect analogy even if the reason for getting the abortion was the same (about which you can't make a statement; women get abortions for any number of reasons). It takes more than one similarity to make an analogy apt.

Also, abortion is murder.

No, it's not. Not in any jurisdiction where it's legal, which covers most of the western world, incluiding the US.

It is very scary indeed when we start calling humans, parasites.

Is it? It doesn't scare me to correctly label something.

Many dangerous people have called people parasites and committed mass genocide.

Have they? Can you cite a couple? And then show some evidence that there's a causal relationship? And then show that calling a fetus a parasite is likely to lead to such? Because if you can't, then your claim is pretty useless.

To call one's own offspring a parasite is unfathomable.

It is? Not to me. To call a fetus, biologically speaking, a parasite, is simply correct, whether it's one's own or someone else's. Why would that be unfathomable?

 

[Renton405]

It is? Not to me. To call a fetus, biologically speaking, a parasite, is simply correct, whether it's one's own or someone else's. Why would that be unfathomable?

because it shows how you respect life and ones own child. For someone to even think that their unborn child is a "parasite' obviously has a great hatred of children and a cold heart.. A true wife and husband nutures and loves their own unborn child..A pshycological connection is immediatly created between the unborn child and their parents(the parents hearing the baby kick, the mother and father reading stories off to the mothers belly, etc).. Anything to "dull" or nullify that phsycological connection is obviously cold and cruel hearted. It also objectifies the baby and makes him the fault for a "crime" he hasn't even commited..

 

[Electric Skeptic]

because it shows how you respect life and ones own child. For someone to even think that their unborn child is a "parasite' obviously has a great hatred of children and a cold heart.. A true wife and husband nutures and loves their own unborn child..A pshycological connection is immediatly created between the unborn child and their parents(the parents hearing the baby kick, the mother and father reading stories off to the mothers belly, etc).. Anything to "dull" or nullify that phsycological connection is obviously cold and cruel hearted. It also objectifies the baby and makes him the fault for a "crime" he hasn't even commited..

I'm sorry, but the above is complete nonsense. Biologically, the fetus is a parasite. To recognise that fact says absolutely nothing about how you respect life or how you feel about your child. Recognising that a fetus is a parasite neither dulls or nulifys any connection, nor does it objectify the baby or make him at fault for any 'crime', real or imagined. It doesn't stop anyone from nurturing and loving it, nor does it impact any psychological connection.

In short, it's merely a scientifically accurate label which, apparently, you don't like. Sorry, but that doesn't stop it from being accurate, and it doesn't mean any of what you claim above.

Tell me, do other scientifically accurate terms like 'zygote', 'blastocyst', and 'fetus' also draw the same ire from you?

 

[Texas Lynn]

What about sex done for both reasons (not that I have that kind - we're too young for "teh babies")? Would that be L+R or L-R for enjoyment? *wink*

The Mrs. Grundys of the world would hold that in askance even if done in the missionary position.

 

[Texas Lynn]

..the ONLY solution is that BOTH sides work together to offer alternatives to abortion.

This has been proposed time and time again and shot down by anti-abortion forces every time.

Pro Choicers need to stop pretending that a legal definition of life will alleviate the guilt of ending your child's life regardless of how desperate the situation. ...Pro Lifers need to do more than shout down how sinful and wrong it is, and start coming up with some concrete ways to help these women. That means digging into your pockets. If we have tens of millions of babies aborted every year, then, we need to be prepared to financially support these women, or we need to be prepared to adopt these children ourselves.

Very easy to talk about how bad abortion is.

If antiabortion people did not stigmatize the woman and seek to deny her dignity guilt would be minimal.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Here's some good new for pro-lifers:
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2007/10/11/index.html

It's not bad news for pro-choicers either. None of the reduction was due to legal proscription.

FYI, the Alan Guttmacher Institute is the research arm of Planned Parenthood.

 

[Lisa0315]

This has been proposed time and time again and shot down by anti-abortion forces every time.



If antiabortion people did not stigmatize the woman and seek to deny her dignity guilt would be minimal.

I don't believe that. The guilt is internal not external.

Lisa

 

[LonesomeTexan]

biologically, we are all parasites. we cannot survive without other preying on other organisms. we leech off God's green earth everyday. that blows the fetuses are parasites arguement right out of the water.

next, as far as sex education goes, it's really simple. leave it up to the parents. any half way responsible parent should tell their kid that no contraception is 100% effective and if you aren't willing to deal with the chance of pregnancy, you shouldn't be having sex.

I'm sorry, but I don't see my lord and savior handing out contraceptives just because "kids are going to have sex anyways". I see him telling people to turn from their sin and telling people just how wonderful waiting until marriage truly is.