I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[EnemyPartyII]

It is an actual person! Why you (plural) don't see that is beyond me.

because I don't think something that isn't aware of itself, and doesn't have interpersonal relationships, as a person.

Utterly irrelevant, measuring a person's worth by what others think of them.

Sorry to break it to you, but thats the big reason murder is seen as so bad... a. because you wouldn't like it, and b. because your associates wouldn't like it. If you could kill someone and no one would care, including the victim, I would contend that its not immoral.

The negative effect is that you are killing a human being when he or she is most helpless.

But WHO CARES? Who feels the harm being done? No one.

 

[rydog32]

Dude, that is a lousy argument. Sorry, just is.

Lisa

Meh, id agree normally but i'm just too open minded for some. I mean people believe in god yet i don't see or have ever heard his conscience. Unless you consider going to church and following the rules of a book something worthy of conscience.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If that is the case, then, your argument for sentienceyis out the window, or at least, you must add a second criteria.

So, now, we have the following:

We may kill life if it is not yet sentinent and it has no future value.

Uh oh, how do you know that babe doesn't have future value?

Lisa

I'm sorry... you're kind of going off at a tangent here... I think intentionally destroying an endangered turtle egg for no reason would be wrong... but I ALSO think killing a foetus for no good reason is wrong too...

Its just that, in both cases, I don't consider killing a turtle egg to be as bad as killing a turtle, just the same as I don't consider killing a foetus to be as bad as killing a person

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Meh, id agree normally but i'm just too open minded for some. I mean people believe in god yet i don't see or have ever heard his conscience. Unless you consider going to church and following the rules of a book something worthy of conscience.

different discussion for a different thread mate

 

[Avatar]

because I don't think something that isn't aware of itself, and doesn't have interpersonal relationships, as a person.Sorry to break it to you, but thats the big reason murder is seen as so bad... a. because you wouldn't like it, and b. because your associates wouldn't like it. If you could kill someone and no one would care, including the victim, I would contend that its not immoral.But WHO CARES? Who feels the harm being done? No one.

I have no idea what to say to you.

 

[rydog32]

This is whats called the "hard question"... when does a bunch of nbeural cells stop acting on instinct and start acting conciously?

Best answer we have is "common consensus". What can I tell ya? More research is needed.

BUT! while the limit of conciousness isn't very well understood (humans are concious, but are chimps? dolphins? dogs? rats? sparrows? lizards? frogs? and so on down the chain, no one is really sure where to draw the upper line) we certainly know that bellow a certain point things definately are NOT concious... crabs, insects, clams... and so on. So... when a foetus has fewer neural cells than a clam or crab, it is really, REALLY unlikely to be concious.

Well you do have a point. But it doesn't mean it cant feel pain or feel hunger or anything else. I mean if those creatures didn't feel those emotions, they would be extinct as well as everything and everyone.

 

[rydog32]

different discussion for a different thread mate

Yes agreed. Just needed to put my two cents in for someone.

 

[Lisa0315]

Why is it that a fetus can be "murdered" by a husband, boyfriend or stranger, but can be legally aborted by the mother?

Lisa

 

[rydog32]

Why is it that a fetus can be "murdered" by a husband, boyfriend or stranger, but can be legally aborted by the mother?

Lisa

duh because the mother is carrying the baby.

its like liposuction but you lose more weight

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I have no idea what to say to you.

explain to me why you consider it wrong to kill something that doesn't care?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Well you do have a point. But it doesn't mean it cant feel pain or feel hunger or anything else. I mean if those creatures didn't feel those emotions, they would be extinct as well as everything and everyone.

difference between feeling pain in the sense that you or I do, and a stimulus reaction in the sense that moths fly towards a flame though

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Why is it that a fetus can be "murdered" by a husband, boyfriend or stranger, but can be legally aborted by the mother?

Lisa

well, that depends what jurisdiction you are in... and most places I'm pretty sure that its only a murder if the mother is murdered as well.

Like I say, its all about peoples inter-relationships.

Murder is bad because it hurts you AND THE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT YOU... so if a foetus has people that care about it, and you kill it against the will of those people, then that is really wrong... but if you kill it and no one cares about it, then it isn't as bad

 

[rydog32]

difference between feeling pain in the sense that you or I do, and a stimulus reaction in the sense that moths fly towards a flame though

could you rewrite that you lost me.

 

[Avatar]

explain to me why you consider it wrong to kill something that doesn't care?

I've tried. Obviously without success. Maybe I have to rethink my arguments and my presentation of them. It's crystal clear to me but I seem unable to convince folks in the opposite camp. My take on you is that you have a fearsome intelligence and are indeed open to rethinking any held belief (given convincing contrary reasoning). That I've failed is entirely my failing.

 

[Lisa0315]

well, that depends what jurisdiction you are in... and most places I'm pretty sure that its only a murder if the mother is murdered as well.

Like I say, its all about peoples inter-relationships.

Murder is bad because it hurts you AND THE PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT YOU... so if a foetus has people that care about it, and you kill it against the will of those people, then that is really wrong... but if you kill it and no one cares about it, then it isn't as bad

Then, why isn't the father consulted, or the grandparents who may care about that fetus that the woman is about to abort?

Lisa

 

[EnemyPartyII]

could you rewrite that you lost me.

ok... when you feel pain, you have two levels of response... the instinctive, reaction, to remove yourself from the source of pain, and also a sentient response, where you say to yourself, "ow, I'm in pain".

Below a certain neral threshold, organisms only have the first response. So if you hurt a fly, it will respond instinctively to remove itself from the pain, but it won't be aware of the pain, in the same sense that you would be.

 

[Renton405]

but if you kill it and no one cares about it, then it isn't as bad

wow, how compassionate you pro-choicers are..

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I've tried. Obviously without success. Maybe I have to rethink my arguments and my presentation of them. It's crystal clear to me but I seem unable to convince folks in the opposite camp. My take on you is that you have a fearsome intelligence and are indeed open to rethinking any held belief (given convincing contrary reasoning). That I've failed is entirely my failing.

My take on you is that you have a fearsome intelligence and are indeed open to rethinking any held belief

Now I'm blushing bright red and my co-workers are throwing things at me

I'd look forward to you having another go at explaining your reasoning to me anytime, and I appreciate that, even though we have differences of opinion, you always seem polite and friendly. I really like that.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Then, why isn't the father consulted, or the grandparents who may care about that fetus that the woman is about to abort?

Lisa

ultimately, because they aren't the ones carrying it... but I would sincerely hope, and indeed, imagine in many cases, that the fgather and grandparents are indeed consulted, and further, that many abortions occur for precisely the reason that the potential mother does NOT recieve help and support from these sectors.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

wow, how compassionate you pro-choicers are..

I'm compasionate. I'm pro-life.

I just don't;
a. Think my personal views are necesarily a sound basis for dictating what other people do with their bodies
b. think killing something that isn't aware of it, is as bad as killing something that IS aware of it.