I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[rydog32]

ok... when you feel pain, you have two levels of response... the instinctive, reaction, to remove yourself from the source of pain, and also a sentient response, where you say to yourself, "ow, I'm in pain".

Below a certain neral threshold, organisms only have the first response. So if you hurt a fly, it will respond instinctively to remove itself from the pain, but it won't be aware of the pain, in the same sense that you would be.

what evidence is there in that?
i mean besides the insect cannot talk. But what about things like bee's where when attacked they release scents so other bees are like "oh gotta go hurt something", now i mean i don't see how anything unconcience would just go "attack" something

 

[EnemyPartyII]

what evidence is there in that?
i mean besides the insect cannot talk. But what about things like bee's where when attacked they release scents so other bees are like "oh gotta go hurt something", now i mean i don't see how anything unconcience would just go "attack" something

If you are really interested, I can only suggest your read up about neuroscience... I'm not an expert, by any means, but I can give you some links if you are interested?

 

[rydog32]

actually yes i would love that.
im pro science. just got bored of saying why abortions are ok.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

actually yes i would love that.
im pro science. just got bored of saying why abortions are ok.

first an easy one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

more detail
http://www.d.umn.edu/~dcole/sense5.html

havn't read this one, but looks interesting
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?t=11012&view=previous&sid=713f816fdc65ce41931506e06229bd10

 

[Lisa0315]

ultimately, because they aren't the ones carrying it... but I would sincerely hope, and indeed, imagine in many cases, that the fgather and grandparents are indeed consulted, and further, that many abortions occur for precisely the reason that the potential mother does NOT recieve help and support from these sectors.

On this we agree...I think that education, opportunity, and options are the best ways to eliminate abortion.

Don't get me wrong. I would celebrate if abortion was banned in this country. However, I do not think it ever will be. I would just like to see women in these situations given other alternatives, and make those alternatives more attractive than abortion.

There are just too many couples out there who would do anything to have a child. It seems so senseless to me.

In fact, going back to an earlier point, there is no way that ANY of these babies are unwanted by SOMEONE.

Lisa

 

[EnemyPartyII]

On this we agree...I think that education, opportunity, and options are the best ways to eliminate abortion.

Don't get me wrong. I would celebrate if abortion was banned in this country. However, I do not think it ever will be. I would just like to see women in these situations given other alternatives, and make those alternatives more attractive than abortion.

There are just too many couples out there who would do anything to have a child. It seems so senseless to me.

In fact, going back to an earlier point, there is no way that ANY of these babies are unwanted by SOMEONE.

Lisa

I'd love to see an end to abortion as well.

But I'd like to see this through improved childcare, subsidised healthcare, and universally available free contraception, rather than just banning it. If these steps were taken, banning abortion wouldn't be necesary, because no one would be having them anyway

 

[rydog32]

I'd love to see an end to abortion as well.

But I'd like to see this through improved childcare, subsidised healthcare, and universally available free contraception, rather than just banning it. If these steps were taken, banning abortion wouldn't be necesary, because no one would be having them anyway

I amen that, good articles btw, i should of just went to wiki and searched it myself.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I amen that, good articles btw, i should of just went to wiki and searched it myself.

glad ya liked 'em

 

[Lisa0315]

I'd love to see an end to abortion as well.

But I'd like to see this through improved childcare, subsidised healthcare, and universally available free contraception, rather than just banning it. If these steps were taken, banning abortion wouldn't be necesary, because no one would be having them anyway

I would like to see the same. I would also like to see harsher laws regarding the responsibility of men.

I don't think it would eliminate abortion entirely. If you remember that one thread in which the married woman who was financially comfortable, still chose to have an abortion because it would cause their lifestyle to change.

That kind of thing makes my blood boil. I do not feel sorry for women like that. I do feel compassion for women who are in horrible situations and feel that they have no other choice. I want to see them have other choices.

Lisa

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I would like to see the same. I would also like to see harsher laws regarding the responsibility of men.

I don't think it would eliminate abortion entirely. If you remember that one thread in which the married woman who was financially comfortable, still chose to have an abortion because it would cause their lifestyle to change.

That kind of thing makes my blood boil. I do not feel sorry for women like that. I do feel compassion for women who are in horrible situations and feel that they have no other choice. I want to see them have other choices.

Lisa

well, thats why I advocate universal contraceptive implants to everyone who agrees to have them

 

[Texas Lynn]

Why is that the criteria for determining a right to life? Because you say so?

The antiabortion people manufactured a "right" out of thin air. A fetus has never been considered to be a person by the vast majority and only in the last 30 years has a significant minority thought so. The assertion of this is not based on anything except emotionalism and a desire to control the sexuality of women.

 

[Lisa0315]

well, thats why I advocate universal contraceptive implants to everyone who agrees to have them

That wouldn't work for Catholics and other religious groups, but then, most Catholics would not have an abortion either.

I don't think contraception is the way to go. I think we need a healthcare system and an adoption system that will provide the care for the mothers and the placement of babies that the mothers cannot care for under whatever circumstances.

The problem is that there will be times when nothing will work. Crack babies are unlikely to be adopted.

It is a serious problem and no easy solution. I just think that abortion is also too easy, and the abortion providers do not offer information as they should. I think most women are scarred by the abortion and it will cause more harm to them in the long run. These women need to be made aware of how difficult their lives are going to become, the guilt and the pain that they will endure for the rest of their lives.

Lisa

 

[Texas Lynn]

But that is not always the case.

I suppose not; not every report of child and spouse abuse is a valid one either. There are always exceptions. But in medical and surgical abortions, doctors and physician's assistants determine which procedure will be performed. I'm more confident of ethical behavior on the part of those professionals than I am of such on the part of politicians, especially corrupt individuals and organizations like the Religious Right. The determination is best left to the medical professionals nad kept away from the politicians.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Exactly. That is a fallacious statistical argument. I explained that already. It is a meaningless statistic. The only way that it can be meaningful is if you do the study in the manner I described in my previous post.

It is like saying: There are more chocolate chips in chocolate chip cookies because there are more chocolate chip cookies in the cookie jar. This proves that peanut butter cookies do not have chocolate chips.

Do you understand the problem with your reasoning?

Lisa

The problem is the heterosexists engage in prurient discussion of sexual acts engaged in by LGBTs while revealing their noncognizance of the sexual practices of heterosexuals. I would not have stated the "statistic" I did had this not occurred a priori.

At the base, both the issue of abortion and of sexual orientation is basically about sex: those who are ignorant or seek control of normal human sexuality seek to deny a woman's right to choose and seek to penalize LGBTs.

 

[Lisa0315]

The problem is the heterosexists engage in prurient discussion of sexual acts engaged in by LGBTs while revealing their noncognizance of the sexual practices of heterosexuals. I would not have stated the "statistic" I did had this not occurred a priori.

At the base, both the issue of abortion and of sexual orientation is basically about sex: those who are ignorant or seek control of normal human sexuality seek to deny a woman's right to choose and seek to penalize LGBTs.

Yes, I agree. I think that the church needs to clean up their own sexual impurities before going into the world and condemning others. Homosexuality is no worse a sin than Adultery. All sex outside of marriage is a sin, but we need to get our act together before taking it on the road.

Lisa

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Been there. I've always been pro-choice, but I didn't want to have an abortion. I didn't clap my hands in glee and say, "Oh, goodie, my birth control failed and now, since my life's a wreck and I can't take care of myself, much less a child, I get to have an abortion! Wheeee!"

No, for weeks I cried and prayed and tried to think of any way I could support myself waiting tables for the next nine months while I was pregnant so I could at least consider adoption. Abortion was the last resort for me, but it was the right decision.

The same goes for a woman facing a pregnancy that puts her health at risk and she aborts so that her living children will have a mother. Or a girl molested by a relative who aborts because she can barely keep her own health and sanity together much less an unborn child's. Or a woman who gets pregnant by an abusive partner and she aborts to spare a child a slow death by torture and neglect.

There are all kinds of reasons to have an abortion, and none of them have anything to do with thinking abortion is a great thing to have to do. In the meantime, the last thing a woman in that position needs is someone shoving their religious condemnation in her face.

this is a true american tragedy. I honestly would have sent you all of the money I normally tithe to the church to support the life of you through your pregnancy. I believe we as christians need to do a better job reaching out to people in these situations. we also need legislation protecting the rights of the unborn, but we need to do a better job supporting people in similiar situations.

 

[Lisa0315]

this is a true american tragedy. I honestly would have sent you all of the money I normally tithe to the church to support the life of you through your pregnancy. I believe we as christians need to do a better job reaching out to people in these situations. we also need legislation protecting the rights of the unborn, but we need to do a better job supporting people in similiar situations.

Amen!

Lisa

 

[LonesomeTexan]

mark my words. someday I will start a private charity group strictly for women who wouldn't be able to financially support themselves through their pregnancy. I'd take donations from all sorts of people and try to coordinate pro life doctors to deliver children free or at a reduced cost to the mother. this isn't a job for uncle sam. this is something that falls on the shoulders of true followers of Christ. If Christians and churches around the country truly united, we'd never have to see a woman go through an abortion again because she couldn't support herself through the pregnancy.

 

[Westvleteren]

mark my words. someday I will start a private charity group strickly for women who wouldn't be able to financially support themselves through their pregnancy. I'd take donations from all sorts of people and try to coordinate pro life doctors to deliver children free or at a reduced cost to the mother. this isn't a job for uncle sam. this is something that falls on the shoulders of true followers of Christ. If Christians and churches around the country truly united, we'd never have to see a woman go through an abortion again because she couldn't support herself through the pregnancy.

If you want to reduce abortions, I think you're on the right track with the idea of fighting with compassion rather than condemnation.

And I agree it's no job for the government. Nothing you want done right is.

But it's not just after fertilization that a girl needs the support of her faith community and her family -- it's long, long before. She needs access to reliable information about sex and birth control -- because not everyone believes consensual sex is a sin, and even believing that it is won't always stop them. She needs someone to turn to and a place to run if she's being molested, or pressured into sex, or abused by her partner. Girls need a sense of self-worth to have the strength to say "no" when they're not ready for sex, but they also need a healthy enough attitude toward sex that when it does happen, they have the confidence to insist on protection rather than going about it guilty and frightened.

The best way to stop abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with. There's no arguing with that. But it will take a sea-change in our behavior to do it.

(And sometimes, like me, you can do everything right and still end up pregnant. That's when a compassionate and nonjudgmental place to turn would have helped. It might not have changed my mind, but my decision would not have been based on fear and desperation.)

 

[Lisa0315]

mark my words. someday I will start a private charity group strickly for women who wouldn't be able to financially support themselves through their pregnancy. I'd take donations from all sorts of people and try to coordinate pro life doctors to deliver children free or at a reduced cost to the mother. this isn't a job for uncle sam. this is something that falls on the shoulders of true followers of Christ. If Christians and churches around the country truly united, we'd never have to see a woman go through an abortion again because she couldn't support herself through the pregnancy.

I think this is one of the greatest missionary works we could do in this country, and all over the world. I hope you do it. In fact, I would like to help.

A major organization that is an alternative to Family Planning that is focused on adoption or aiding the mother to keep the child. What a concept!

Srsly, if you ever do this, I want you to contact me. I will send a PM to you with my information. I cannot contribute anything financially, but I can contribute my Accounting knowledge and help you get set up as a non-profit organization.

Lisa