I don't care if you think abortion is wrong.

[EnemyPartyII]

Most pro-lifers feel its their moral obligation to speak up for those who don't have a voice.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html



http://www.nevadalife.org/life_is_precious.htm



If you were walkin' down the street and seen someone attacking another, which could lead to their death, most would try to make some effort to intervene. Some may just make a phone call, while others do more to try to save a life. The point is when life is threatened its within most of us to want to prevent the death. The dispute usually just comes down to when one believes life begins. Most christians feel not speaking out against abortion is the same as condoning it.

James 4:17 tells us “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”

a foetus isn't a someone. It lacks the things that make-> seen someone attacking another, which could lead to their death, the victim in this scenario a special person worth defending

 

[suzybeezy]

I'll add this personal note. My son was born at 26 weeks - weighing less than 2 pounds. He's almost 8 years old now. At this same gestation, abortions are being performed. I find that outrageous!

 

[Avatar]

a foetus isn't a someone.

Therein lies our fundamental disagreement.

'and never the twain shall meet...'

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'll add this personal note. My son was born at 26 weeks - weighing less than 2 pounds. He's almost 8 years old now. At this same gestation, abortions are being performed. I find that outrageous!

most abortions are performed long before 26 weeks. Thanks for your personal insight.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Therein lies our fundamental disagreement.

'and never the twain shall meet...'

if you are happy to disagree, leave it there.

If you want to convine me, however... explain to me exactly what a first/early second trimester foetus has that makes it the same in terms of personhood as you or I?

 

[suzybeezy]

most abortions are performed long before 26 weeks. Thanks for your personal insight.

Most but unfortunately not all.

 

[Lisa0315]

My gosh, some of that sort of questions makes me forget how naive some people are. Not that there's anything wrong with that. What makes you doubt it? It's common knowledge for people who are not ignorant of sexology. I suppose The Kinsey Report on Female Sexuality might be a good place to start, as would anything by William Masters and Virginia Johnson or a college sophomore gender roles textbook. If you're really interested you could see The Woman's Guide to Anal Sex by Jack Morin or Pucker Up by Tristan Taormino. Taormino also has a video available from Good Vibrations on the subject.

Not good enough. Provide a source that shows statistical data from an established scholarly research journal. A link will do just fine. Thanks.

Lisa

 

[IzzyPop]

Not good enough. Provide a source that shows statistical data from an established scholarly research journal. A link will do just fine. Thanks.

Lisa

You do not even need a study. Common sense and some algebra will do. Sodomy is defined as any non-vaginally penetrative sex. That would include anal and oral sex as well as manual manipulation. If homosexuals make up 10% of the population, then if only 15% of the heterosexual population have any kind of foreplay that involves the genital region, then you have more heterosexuals committing sodomy than you do homosexuals.

 

[Avatar]

if you are happy to disagree, leave it there.

If you want to convine me, however... explain to me exactly what a first/early second trimester foetus has that makes it the same in terms of personhood as you or I?

It is a living human being.

 

[Avatar]

You do not even need a study. Common sense and some algebra will do. Sodomy is defined as any non-vaginally penetrative sex. That would include anal and oral sex as well as manual manipulation. If homosexuals make up 10% of the population, then if only 15% of the heterosexual population have any kind of foreplay that involves the genital region, then you have more heterosexuals committing sodomy than you do homosexuals.

What does this have to do with abortion?

 

[Lisa0315]

You do not even need a study. Common sense and some algebra will do. Sodomy is defined as any non-vaginally penetrative sex. That would include anal and oral sex as well as manual manipulation. If homosexuals make up 10% of the population, then if only 15% of the heterosexual population have any kind of foreplay that involves the genital region, then you have more heterosexuals committing sodomy than you do homosexuals.

Yes, I realize that, and I realized that when she posted that. However, I was trying to get her to define her terms.

You see, I deal with statistics every day of my life. There is quite a bit of difference between saying that heterosexuals being the majority, therefore, have more anal sex than homosexuals. It is quite another to statistically compare the two groups and anal sex. That was what I was getting at.

Second, if you include oral sex, then, of course, you again have the population to deal with which produces a false result.

In order to statistically measure this, you would have to have the same number of heterosexuals and homosexuals and also measure the frequency of non-vaginal penetrative sex in each group. See?

Since heterosexuals would be having vaginal penetrative sex, and homosexuals would not be, statistically, it is impossible for heterosexuals to have more anal and oral sex than homosexuals.

Lisa

 

[EnemyPartyII]

It is a living human being.

but not a sentient one.

Nor does it have the interpersonal connections, or the desire to remain alive that you or I have, which (theoretically) is what would make killing you or I a bad thing

 

[Texas Lynn]

I'll add this personal note. My son was born at 26 weeks - weighing less than 2 pounds. He's almost 8 years old now. At this same gestation, abortions are being performed. I find that outrageous!

Late term abortions are very rare generally done only to protect the life or health of the woman.

 

[Texas Lynn]

It is a living human being.

No more so than an egg is a chicken.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yes, I realize that, and I realized that when she posted that. However, I was trying to get her to define her terms.

You see, I deal with statistics every day of my life. There is quite a bit of difference between saying that heterosexuals being the majority, therefore, have more anal sex than homosexuals. It is quite another to statistically compare the two groups and anal sex. That was what I was getting at.

Second, if you include oral sex, then, of course, you again have the population to deal with which produces a false result.

In order to statistically measure this, you would have to have the same number of heterosexuals and homosexuals and also measure the frequency of non-vaginal penetrative sex in each group. See?

Since heterosexuals would be having vaginal penetrative sex, and homosexuals would not be, statistically, it is impossible for heterosexuals to have more anal and oral sex than homosexuals.

Lisa

No it's entirely true because there are so many more of them.

 

[Avatar]

but not a sentient one.

Why is that the criteria for determining a right to life? Because you say so?

Nor does it have the interpersonal connections, or the desire to remain alive that you or I have, which (theoretically) is what would make killing you or I a bad thing

If there is no desire for life, why does it live? Why do those cells divide, why does the organism build itself into an increasingly more complex being? No conscious desire to live? What does that mean? It certainly wants to live, it devotes all its energy to doing just that. Are you saying its because it hasn't yet attained our level of cognitive awareness? So what? It will. I did and you did.

As for interpersonal connections, that is an amazingly weak argument. Unless you're saying a bum on the street nobody cares about has no right to life. Please tell me you're not saying that.

 

[Avatar]

No more so than an egg is a chicken.

If it's fertilized that's exactly what it is.

 

[suzybeezy]

Late term abortions are very rare generally done only to protect the life or health of the woman.

But that is not always the case.

 

[Lisa0315]

No it's entirely true because there are so many more of them.

Exactly. That is a fallacious statistical argument. I explained that already. It is a meaningless statistic. The only way that it can be meaningful is if you do the study in the manner I described in my previous post.

It is like saying: There are more chocolate chips in chocolate chip cookies because there are more chocolate chip cookies in the cookie jar. This proves that peanut butter cookies do not have chocolate chips.

Do you understand the problem with your reasoning?

Lisa

 

[IzzyPop]

Exactly. That is a fallacious statistical argument. I explained that already. It is a meaningless statistic. The only way that it can be meaningful is if you do the study in the manner I described in my previous post.

It is like saying: There are more chocolate chips in chocolate chip cookies because there are more chocolate chip cookies in the cookie jar. This proves that peanut butter cookies do not have chocolate chips.

Do you understand the problem with your reasoning?

Lisa

Not at all. To use your chocolate chip analogy:


If you have 90 cookies that average 5 chips per cookie and 10 cookies the average 10 chips per cookie it would be a fair statement to say that you have more chocolate chips in the 90 than you do in the ten.

She made no comments about frequency per individual. Only that most sodomy is committed by heterosexuals. Gross numbers carries that one, not statistics.