I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[Lion Hearted Man]

Kinda like a Pharisee Aye?

Exactly

 

[Zongerfield]

I don't care if you pray for me. I appreciate, to some extent, that you. Just don't tell me on a public forum that you're praying for me, because what does that do other than broadcast how holy you are to everyone? Even if you just PM'd people to tell them you were praying for them it would be better. Because no matter how sincere you are, when you post on a public forum "I'm praying for you" it can look like the most insincere, self-gratifying, and patronizing holy-roller lingo out there.

Thank you everyone for the kind words. I'm happy you are starting to see clearly what my intentions are.

As for this post, I wanted to explain my position further. Part of the reason why I joined this forum was to learn how to express myself to new people, to people outside my church, to people outside my sphere of influence. Also, interacting on the Internet is somewhat new for me, so I'm still learning the etiquette, the standard of what is "acceptable" and what is not. Along with learning the Internet comes the Internet lingo and abbreviations - LOL, etc.

But one thing I cannot do is hide my feelings, my beliefs, in the corner so that others are not offended. I am a Christian, I love the Lord, I am unapologetic about this. If I wish to express love, or hope, or good-will I will not shroud that in a PM so that others are not offended by my words, and thoughts, and actions.

I believe that it if I were to say something critical about someone, that should be sent via a PM, but a prayer, or a sincere apology, or a sincere acceptance of an apology should be made public so that everyone can see that I am a person of faith, a person of forgiveness, and a person of love. If people are offended by this, I'm sorry, but I will not change.

Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

-Corinthians 13:10

 

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by Lion Hearted Man
I don't care if you pray for me. I appreciate, to some extent, that you. Just don't tell me on a public forum that you're praying for me, because what does that do other than broadcast how holy you are to everyone? Even if you just PM'd people to tell them you were praying for them it would be better. Because no matter how sincere you are, when you post on a public forum "I'm praying for you" it can look like the most insincere, self-gratifying, and patronizing holy-roller lingo out there.

Reply by Zongerfield
I believe that it if I were to say something critical about someone, that should be sent via a PM, but a prayer, or a sincere apology, or a sincere acceptance of an apology should be made public so that everyone can see that I am a person of faith, a person of forgiveness, and a person of love. If people are offended by this, I'm sorry, but I will not change.

Zongerfield
You maybe trying to help but I do not think that you are using much wisdom.
Lion Hearted Man has told you what he wants from you. If you really want to help Lion Hearted Man then a least honor his request. Your style is irritating him and he sees you as self-righteous.

Do you see that you are putting your interest above him? You stated that a prayer

“should be made public so that everyone can see that I am a person of faith”

You are not going to help Lion Hearted Man when you are irritating him. Trying to show everyone that you are a person of faith is putting the focus on you. Lion Hearted Man was brave enough to tell of his disappointing experience in seeking God and you wanting to show everyone that you are a person of faith is not any help to him in fact it irritates him.

Sometimes we Christians think that we are going to “SAVE” someone. We can not save anyone. God directs the joining of spirits and does the saving so unless I get a direct and unmistakable guidance from God I do not try to play like the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that God will never use anyone to help another person feel His presence but let God do the leading or be quite or at least do not irate the man seeking God.

Zongerfield you may have the right heart but your approach on this forum seems to agitate rather than encourage.

 

[Charlie V]

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

 

[TheReasoner]

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I'll have to echo this.

I don't doubt Zs intentions, but... Z: This is a verse I would like to point in your direction as well

Keep up the well-wishes and good luck on learning new/more communication skills. Good on ya for working on it

 

[Woden84]

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Bah, you stole my reply Seems to me doing this on the internet would be an even worse infraction than doing it on a street corner, a lot more people can "hear" you that way. But on the other hand, how would Zongerfield's pride be served if everyone didn't know he is "a person of faith, a person of forgiveness, and a person of love."?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Bah, you stole my reply Seems to me doing this on the internet would be an even worse infraction than doing it on a street corner, a lot more people can "hear" you that way. But on the other hand, how would Zongerfield's pride be served if everyone didn't know he is "a person of faith, a person of forgiveness, and a person of love."?

And what purpose does telling the person you're "praying" for serve besides telling them "I pity you, and hope you become more like me"?

 

[TheReasoner]

Bah, you stole my reply Seems to me doing this on the internet would be an even worse infraction than doing it on a street corner, a lot more people can "hear" you that way. But on the other hand, how would Zongerfield's pride be served if everyone didn't know he is "a person of faith, a person of forgiveness, and a person of love."?

Well... Zongerfield has defended a poster who openly advocates genocide, total annihilation of an entire enemy nation's population with as efficient means as possible during war time and the killing of children (unruly ones) to mention a few tidbits.
Also he has published his intent to pray for people and that he forgives them.

Yeah. I agree, it looks rather bad. And it is worthy of criticism, I think, to defend such a person. BUT at the same time I think I might get a little of where Z is coming from. I do not think he consciously attempted to seem 'holier than thou' or that he even thought about that it could be seen that way. In many Christian groups/congregations it is common as a smiley would be on-line to say such things many times. I don't like it, and I avoid it, but I know many people who use that lingo and mean nothing by it. I think Z is using the terms that way.

As for defending Clirus... I honestly doubt Zongerfield really understands what Clirus is advocating. Z is new here and has not really encountered Clirus' bloodthirst. I think he is probably distraught that we would criticize her as harshly as we do, because let's face it, if Clirus had been a person who simply worded herself appallingly poorly and not someone who openly and consistently advocated killing millions of people in war and gas chambers (or whatever method she decides to implement. Starvation perhaps?) the criticism would have been too harsh and defending Clirus as a person from misinterpretations of her apalling communication skills would have been commendable.

However: Clirus is advocating the aforementioned. There is no doubt that it is not a case of severe miscommunication, but actual honest and true advocacy.

So: I think Z's poor reception here might in fact be due to a couple of unfortunate occurrences:
1: He used lingo which works fine in a subculture but has utterly different meanings to people outside said subculture.
2: He has not actually realized what Clirus is advocating.

And what purpose does telling the person you're "praying" for serve besides telling them "I pity you, and hope you become more like me"?

It depends on the cultural connotation. In a congregation I used to belong to - I left as I found it rather reminiscent of Matthew 23:27 - such lingo was often applied. I think many congregation members did want to appear holy, and did it for that reason. Some however used such statements much as others would say "Hi! Hope you're having a good day!" - or something to that effect.

I'm not saying this is the case for Z. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt until he can respond. Don't forget, Nathan, that people in extremist or closed societies can have a very very hard time adjusting to societies unlike their own. At times a transition can be very very tough indeed. So, if that IS the case maybe Z is a good guy who didn't intend to be understood that way, but was nevertheless.

I could be wrong here. And you know I have criticized Z severely on earlier occasions. I think he deserved that criticism, and what you have given, too. But at the same time I think this could be the result of nothing more than a cultural collision. At least I hope so and try to see possibilities in that direction.

 

[Zongerfield]

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42

Truly, I say to you, We say that of which we have knowledge; we give witness of what we have seen; and you do not take our witness to be true. - John 3:11

 

[Zongerfield]

And what purpose does telling the person you're "praying" for serve besides telling them "I pity you, and hope you become more like me"?

I am reaching out to them in friendship, in solidarity with the Lord, in an effort to come together about those things which we find sacred and important.

I've always found that when I treat people with kindest and respect, they tend to reciprocate that kindest and respect. It's part of building affinity that ultimately results in friendship. But for one reason or another, anytime I try to bring people together on these forums, or build affinity with others, they seem to rebuke me, and label me "haughty," "aloof," a "genocidal supporter" - I don't know, but where I am from, if someone said, "I will pray for you" - you wouldn't call them a "genocidal supporter."

The Internet is a different place with different people. People that I shall pray for, only in secrecy to appease their demands.

 

[TheReasoner]

I am reaching out to them in friendship, in solidarity with the Lord, in an effort to come together about those things which we find sacred and important.

I've always found that when I treat people with kindest and respect, they tend to reciprocate that kindest and respect. It's part of building affinity that ultimately results in friendship. But for one reason or another, anytime I try to bring people together on these forums, or build affinity with others, they seem to rebuke me, and label me "haughty," "aloof," a "genocidal supporter" - I don't know, but where I am from, if someone said, "I will pray for you" - you wouldn't call them a "genocidal supporter."

That's not what has happened Zongerfield. People here have called you a genocidal supporter because you defended Clirus, who herself is a strong advocate of genocide.
Maybe that was a mistake on your part. I hope so, and I think it is. No problem there, we all make mistakes. But saying 'I'll pray for you' alone will certainly not trigger such a label. In conjunction with saying that Clirus views are valid however, it gets scary.

You see Z, what can and often is interpreted by that conjunction is: "I'll pray for you, so that you may realize how wrong you are for opposing total annihilation of millions of innocent civilians in the name of Jesus Christ"

See how that rubs people the wrong way? That's pretty much how I interpreted you when you started defending her. I've spoken to Clirus for years, and listened to her just as long. There is very little doubt in my mind that she needs help. And much of it.


It's nothing personal when I said you come across as aloof Z. Just a pointer at a place where you might want to alter your communication to be better understood.

All in all, as for your intentions, what I will say is:
Wonderful!
Problem is, that's not how you've been interpreted by Nathan, and others. I think I know where you're from and would just like to echo Paul's words: "To the greeks I became a greek".

The Internet is a different place with different people. People that I shall pray for, only in secrecy to appease their demands.

Do that. But I hope you realize that unintentional though it probably was you came across poorly. Don't see this as a demand upon your actions, see it more as a cultural collision. Have you ever experienced that? It's like when I came home to Norway after Ecuador and I wanted to greet a girl, being a proper latino I leaned in to kiss her on the cheek, out of courtesy and proper manners. The result was a slap.
In Ecuador such was proper, in Norway it was absolutely not anywhere close to proper. The same thing applies not to your intention but to your actions. Do you see the difference Z? To many here what you did was pretty close to what I did as a returning missionary kid in the late 90s. My intentions were pure and good, but I missed the target (a proper greeting) by a couple of leagues.

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42

Truly, I say to you, We say that of which we have knowledge; we give witness of what we have seen; and you do not take our witness to be true. - John 3:11

Witness, aye. But remember:
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.


There is a big difference between preaching and appearing 'holier than thou'. Sometimes the latter is just a matter of cultural interpretation. Sometimes it's spiritual narcissism. Preaching is one thing, repeating "I'll pray for you" and such can be interpreted not as preaching but as what those verses criticized. It's not something I'd encourage.

If your lingo is commonplace in your church, use it there. But remember that here you're not in your church and a different set of social rules apply.

We won't spread love by speaking and dressing differently, but by behaving in a manner people can understand and relate to while also showing Christ's love as a peer, not someone aloof above them.

 

[HosannaHM]

The Internet is a different place with different people. People that I shall pray for, only in secrecy to appease their demands.

Just like anything else Zonger it's a part of our culture. You must learn to adapt to it in order to carry out the Gospel with the same grace of Jesus Christ.

It's easy to come off as a bigot when you post something boldly, because no one can hear the way your saying it or how you're carrying yourself. Words are taken very bluntly sometimes so just be careful!

Also, just a reminder- telling people you will pray for them ALL THE TIME is not the best way to appeal. I'm def. not claiming to have it all figured out, but you have to take an interest and genuinely care. Don't just say it, LIVE IT!

I don't doubt your intentions are good brother, but take some notes from Faith Guardian and Charlie here, these guys are putting the Word into action.

God Bless!

 

[HosannaHM]

And what purpose does telling the person you're "praying" for serve besides telling them "I pity you, and hope you become more like me"?

It may come off that way sometimes when someone says that to you, but I can honestly say that I never pray for someone to be more like me. That would be some audacity to hear a prayer said like that!

It's cliche, it doesn't seem like it always helps, but trust me if someone says that to you (and actually do it) and they genuinely care great things can happen.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I am reaching out to them in friendship, in solidarity with the Lord, in an effort to come together about those things which we find sacred and important.

The intention may be noble, but I feel sorry for you, and sincerely hope you someday get an education.

^ Doesn't sound very freindly, does it?

And that's the point. Telling people that you'll pray for them is a backhanded insult -- your way of saying to them that they need your prayers because they are in some way deficient.

If you feel the need to pray, then pray -- but don't announce it, especially not to the people you're praying to.

I've always found that when I treat people with kindest and respect, they tend to reciprocate that kindest and respect. It's part of building affinity that ultimately results in friendship.

I hope you're beginning to realize that your attempts are backfiring.

But for one reason or another, anytime I try to bring people together on these forums, or build affinity with others, they seem to rebuke me, and label me "haughty," "aloof," a "genocidal supporter"

It's possible that you're biting off more than you can chew -- behaps it's not for you to try to bring people together, but to introduce yourself, explain your position and why you believe it, and encourage others to do the same.

If you don't mind me saying so, I seem to recall you from the OP of this thread coming out swinging, as it were. You didn't seem all that interested in bringing people together then.

I don't know, but where I am from, if someone said, "I will pray for you" - you wouldn't call them a "genocidal supporter."

That may be part of the problem -- this isn't where you're from.

You're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy -- the rules are different here.

The genocide comes from the company you keep -- clirus may claim noble intentions, but most of us have been debating her dominionist ideas for years, and her past statements aren't about building affinity, they're about subjugating people to her idea of "Christian Principles."

Most of us around here, Christian and non-Christian alike, believe that the root message of Christianity should be one of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and an individual goal of following in His footsteps -- not obedience to a civil government badly made in the image of a fundamentalist ideal.

The Internet is a different place with different people. People that I shall pray for, only in secrecy to appease their demands.

And thus keep your contempt for them secret, which is just good manners anyway.

 

[Zongerfield]

I am not a meek person. I believe strongly in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And, after much thought, it would dishonest of me to attempt to quell my love for our Lord. I cannot be someone who is shunned into keeping quiet to appease those individuals who have a contemptible view of pious individuals like myself. After all, I would ask everyone to consider the context of our dialogue, we are discussing on "Christian Forums" - we are not debating on "Anti-Theist Forums" - people of faith come here to discuss those things they find sacred and important. Of course, there are unbelievers that lurk about who are curious to learn about the faithful (also, those that seek to deride and poke fun at the faithful), but why should I be the one to tame down my Love of the Lord?

I am praying for people, and I am going to forgive them when they insult me. Instead of trying to silence a unique voice, you should embrace it. But perhaps that is asking too much.

 

[variant]

It may come off that way sometimes when someone says that to you, but I can honestly say that I never pray for someone to be more like me. That would be some audacity to hear a prayer said like that!

It's cliche, it doesn't seem like it always helps, but trust me if someone says that to you (and actually do it) and they genuinely care great things can happen.

In the context of having a contentious discussion "I will pray for you" will never come off as anything other than self righteous condescension, and that is exactly how it is meant when Zonger says it in my opinion (see his previous post).

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I chalk that sort of thing up there with the sort of condescension usually used in phrases like "It's a relationship, not a religion." Are there more well intentioned ways of going about it? But chances are usually good it's not well intentioned.

 

[Zongerfield]

In the context of having a contentious discussion "I will pray for you" will never come off as anything other than self righteous condescension, and that is exactly how it is meant when Zonger says it in my opinion (see his previous post).

Really? I think it means the opposite, actually. I forgive you and I will pray for you means that although we disagree, although we don't see eye to eye on certain issues, I mean to give you the due respect I would give to any christian man, woman, or child.

I am not going to allow a political disagreement to come between us. It is my sincere hope that people forgive me if I offend them, also, I love it when people pray for me, as I can use all the positive energy I can get.

But maybe you're right, maybe it is meant to "hate-on" my fellow Christians, to condescend to them because I am "superior" to them, because I know more than everyone else... This type of perverted thinking never crossed my mind until you and others mentioned it.

We live in a dark world. Nevertheless, I forgive you. And I will pray for you.

 

[variant]

Really? I think it means the opposite, actually. I forgive you and I will pray for you means that although we disagree, although we don't see eye to eye on certain issues, I mean to give you the due respect I would give to any christian man, woman, or child.

I am not going to allow a political disagreement to come between us. It is my sincere hope that people forgive me if I offend them, also, I love it when people pray for me, as I can use all the positive energy I can get.

OK, I'm perfectly capable of being wrong, I am just saying that it comes off that way to me. I've never actually had an "I'll pray for you" come at me in an argument where the person I was speaking with was not giving me an underhanded insult.

If you truly want to make an example of your Christian attitudes then I'm not sure why you don't just say something like this post?

Well the first part anyway.

 

[Snow Phoenix]

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. - Acts 10:42

Truly, I say to you, We say that of which we have knowledge; we give witness of what we have seen; and you do not take our witness to be true. - John 3:11

Go ahead, preach to me and try to convince me of the veracity of your tremendous claims. But coming along and ending everything with 'I'll pray for you' just comes across as holier than thou and condescending.