I don't believe in evolution... (2)

Nathan Poe · May 8, 2011

Lion Hearted Man said:
Hawthorne?

Indeed.

You see, had Zongerfield bothered to ask, he'd have learned something that most of my friends (and one or two foes) would've already known -- I'm a literature professor whose first class was in American Lit.

So of course, when it came time to come up with a screen name, who better to choose from than two great American authors?

Zongerfield · May 8, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
Indeed.

You see, had Zongerfield bothered to ask, he'd have learned something that most of my friends (and one or two foes) would've already known -- I'm a literature professor whose first class was in American Lit.

So of course, when it came time to come up with a screen name, who better to choose from than two great American authors?

I chose West because you seemed cut from the same cloth. Hawthorne is too serious, too darkly romantic when juxtaposed with your positions, although, looking at your avatar is somewhat of a giveaway... Also, West was a Jew, and you seem to have the same values of some of the Jewish intellectuals I know and associate with.

If i were to chose two (or more) American authors to construct an alias it wouldn't be Nathan Poe, it would be, John David Barthelme...

But that's just my taste. Also, what grade do you teach, 11th or 12th?

Lion Hearted Man · May 8, 2011

Zongerfield said:
I chose West because you seemed cut from the same cloth. Hawthorne is too serious, too darkly romantic when juxtaposed with your positions, although, looking at your avatar is somewhat of a giveaway... Also, West was a Jew, and you seem to have the same values of some of the Jewish intellectuals I know and associate with.

If i were to chose two (or more) American authors to construct an alias it wouldn't be Nathan Poe, it would be, John David Barthelme...

But that's just my taste. Also, what grade do you teach, 11th or 12th?

Well Nathanael West spells his name differently

And we can all appreciate or admire authors without having to be "cut from the same cloth". I don't have to hide in obscurity my whole life to enjoy JD Salinger, and I don't have to grow a huge beard in order to enjoy Alan Moore's work.

Maybe sometimes there isn't a deeper meaning to someone's username. For crying out loud, my name is based on a Bee Gees song that was playing in the coffee shop where I signed up this account. You seem to be trying really hard to read Nathan's personality based on your brief encounters with him and his username.

Nathan Poe · May 9, 2011

Lion Hearted Man said:
You seem to be trying really hard to read Nathan's personality based on your brief encounters with him and his username.

And isn't it telling that in all his failures, he hasn't once asked for forgivness -- from me or from God -- for the offense he may or may not have caused?

Zongerfield · May 9, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
And isn't it telling that in all his failures, he hasn't once asked for forgivness -- from me or from God -- for the offense he may or may not have caused?

We are friends, were I to offend you I would hope that you would tell me yourself, in which case, I could give you the proper comeuppance.

We are building a friendship. I am trying to get to know you, but you haven't been that forthcoming so I am left to speculate.

Are you really an English professor? If so, what grades do you teach?

And, another question, why do you attend parties with individuals who enjoy using illicit drugs, engaging in premarital relations, and consuming alcohol till all hours of the night? This seems odd to me... that an English professor would spend his weekends around those types of people.

You are better than those people Poe. You really are. How do I know this?

Because you are here, on Christian forums, seeking the truth. You can see the light glimmering from those individuals who have God in their lives and you are curious to know what that feels like. I don't blame you, I encourage your curiosity.

You have a lot in common with my friend Walt. He had a similar curiosity which ultimately led him to Christ. He also was an avid reader. In prison he said he read over 3,000 books. His favorite writer was Melville, who he claimed was the best American writer of all time. We would talk about literature and books for hours. That's one of the ways we were able to connect. It's funny, because when you announced your love for stories, I knew exactly what you meant because Walt had that same passion. Walt's favorite story was "Bartlby the Scrivener."

Do you remember how that story ends? It ends with the narrator talking about Bartleby's last job, as a clerk looking at a bunch of dead letters. Letters that never made it to their addressee, letters that never fulfilled their purpose, letters that were written in vain... Poe, think critically about those letters. Are those letters symbolic for something?

Walt had a breakthrough when we talked about those dead letters, and we prayed in the pre-dawn hours of that morning.

We can be friends. Therein lies the truth.

TheReasoner · May 9, 2011

This is getting really weird.

And NOT a good kind of weird.

TheReasoner · May 9, 2011

clirus said:
All of the five thousand that Jesus fed were showing faith by following and listening to Jesus.

faith guardian: my position is not consistent with your definition of God, but I believe your understanding of God to be incomplete.

A good understanding of God is as a God of Love, but the best understanding of God is as a God of Love and Righteousness.

Your interpretation is not solid Clirus. Jesus was a guy a lot of people had heard about and would want to hear, regardless of faith. The pharisees showed up to hear him, and they were people Jesus criticized very very harshly

You're a social darwinist, the bible says that to care for the poor is to know God. It says that what we do to the least among us we do to Jesus, you'd kill them or leave them to die.
The bible says to love your enemies, you would have us kill them.

If you're right, why does no church, no theologian, nor any consistent reading of the bible agree with you?

Nathan Poe · May 9, 2011

Zongerfield said:
We are friends, were I to offend you I would hope that you would tell me yourself, in which case, I could give you the proper comeuppance.

"Comeuppance" -- interesting choice of words; very telling.

We are building a friendship. I am trying to get to know you, but you haven't been that forthcoming so I am left to speculate.

I haven't been forthcoming because you haven't shown any interest in asking up until now.

Are you really an English professor? If so, what grades do you teach?

I currently teach basic composition on a college level, but I used to teach literature and composition on a high school level -- in fact, most people here already know (and appreciate the irony) that I spent nine years teaching in various Catholoc high schools.

And, another question, why do you attend parties with individuals who enjoy using illicit drugs, engaging in premarital relations, and consuming alcohol till all hours of the night? This seems odd to me... that an English professor would spend his weekends around those types of people.

Seriously -- you need to ask?

You are better than those people Poe. You really are. How do I know this?

Just as you're better than us, Zongerfield?

Because you are here, on Christian forums, seeking the truth. You can see the light glimmering from those individuals who have God in their lives and you are curious to know what that feels like. I don't blame you, I encourage your curiosity.

Assume for a moment that you're correct -- why, then, are you here? You have no interest whatsoever in seeking the "truth" -- you vainly believe you already have it, and have taken it upon yourself to spread your truth to the audience you crave.

I don't blame you -- I pity your hubris, as I know that, much like Oedipus, it will lead you to grief.

You have a lot in common with my friend Walt. He had a similar curiosity which ultimately led him to Christ. He also was an avid reader. In prison he said he read over 3,000 books. His favorite writer was Melville, who he claimed was the best American writer of all time. We would talk about literature and books for hours. That's one of the ways we were able to connect. It's funny, because when you announced your love for stories, I knew exactly what you meant because Walt had that same passion. Walt's favorite story was "Bartlby the Scrivener."

Melville is overrated -- although I'm starting to see how Walt got to you.

Speaking of stories, have you noticed how you always come back to Walt? You really want us to admire your success story with him, don't you? Could it be that he's your only success, or is it (as I suspect) that Walt is a prouduct of your vanity, and you won't stop until we congratulate you for him?

I have no doubt that had I mentioned a love of Mark Twain, Walt's favorite story would be Huckleberry Finn.

Do you remember how that story ends? It ends with the narrator talking about Bartleby's last job, as a clerk looking at a bunch of dead letters. Letters that never made it to their addressee, letters that never fulfilled their purpose, letters that were written in vain... Poe, think critically about those letters. Are those letters symbolic for something?

But of course -- now complete the metaphor; what does that make Bartleby?

Walt had a breakthrough when we talked about those dead letters, and we prayed in the pre-dawn hours of that morning.

Again -- you'll never stop patting yourself on the back over "Walt," will you? You need his success story to impress us with.

We can be friends. Therein lies the truth.

We can be -- if that's what you wanted.

Alas, your words and attitude have already made your intentions abundantly clear -- you don't want to be anyone's "friend" -- you want to be their mentor, just as you are with Walt.

Give it up, Zong -- you have your reward.

Nathan Poe · May 9, 2011

clirus said:
All of the five thousand that Jesus fed were showing faith by following and listening to Jesus.

And they got a free lunch out of the deal.

faith guardian: my position is not consistent with your definition of God, but I believe your understanding of God to be incomplete.

And he believes your understanding of God to be twisted.

He's not the only one.

A good understanding of God is as a God of Love, but the best understanding of God is as a God of Love and Righteousness.

And a poor understanding of God is as a reflection of one's own self-righteousness.

tulc · May 9, 2011

Zongerfield said:
And, another question, why do you attend parties with individuals who enjoy using illicit drugs, engaging in premarital relations, and consuming alcohol till all hours of the night? This seems odd to me... that an English professor would spend his weekends around those types of people.

Sounds familiar:

Matt. 9:10-13 said:
10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

tulc(just sayn')

Zongerfield · May 9, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
"Comeuppance" -- interesting choice of words; very telling.

What's wrong with my word choice?

I haven't been forthcoming because you haven't shown any interest in asking up until now.

No, you've been coy all along. But I feel now we are getting somewhere.

I currently teach basic composition on a college level, but I used to teach literature and composition on a high school level -- in fact, most people here already know (and appreciate the irony) that I spent nine years teaching in various Catholoc high schools.

This not ironic. Most English teachers and pseudo-intellectuals that work in schools, both parochial schools and public schools, are atheists. There are very view Jesuits and Nuns still teaching college and high school.

Seriously -- you need to ask?

I suppose that lifestyle appeals to you. But you are better than those people.

Just as you're better than us, Zongerfield?

No, we are all cracked vessels.

Assume for a moment that you're correct -- why, then, are you here? You have no interest whatsoever in seeking the "truth" -- you vainly believe you already have it, and have taken it upon yourself to spread your trtuh to the audience you crave.

I am here to make friends, to profess my covenant with the Lord, to bear witness to his love, to assist others in their quest to find the Lord.

Plus, I am lonely. Despite my friends at church and my community, I've made some poor decisions in my early life which has left me a very lonely person. I have God and Scripture, which is really all I need, but sometimes when I am at home, by myself, I am lonely.

I don't blame you -- I pity your hubris, as I know that, much like Oedipus, it will lead you to grief.

Pride comes before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall... I don't believe I have the hubris you believe I do. Despite my convictions about the Lord, which form an unshakable foundation, I have many insecurities about my looks, and health, etc.

Melville is overrated -- although I'm starting to see how Walt got to you.

Maybe, but if you recall Shiloh, he had keen insight:

Foemen at morn, but friends at eve
Fame or country least their care:
What like a bullet can undeceive!

We all face the same fate, and when we are lying on our death beds, foes or friends we are all the same, except for those who have the Grace and the Love of the Lord on their side. Bullets or death can undeceive and turn enemies into friends, but the Love of the Lord can save!

Speaking of stories, have you noticed how you always come back to Walt? You really want us to admire your success story with him, don't you? Could it be that he's your only success, or is it (as I suspect) that Walt is a prouduct of your vanity, and you won't stop until we congratulate you for him?

Yes, he is probably my most successful story. I would like you and others to acknowledge how the Lord helped to turn his life around. But he is not my only success story. There are others. I talk about him because he is the only one I have mentioned thus far.

I have no doubt that had I mentioned a love of Mark Twain, Walt's favorite story would be Huckleberry Finn.

No, Walt never liked Mark Twain. He didn't approve of Twain's lifestyle.

But of course -- now complete the metaphor; what does that make Bartleby?

That is left for you to consider. But I will give you some scripture to help guide you in your reflection:

For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

Again -- you'll never stop patting yourself on the back over "Walt," will you? You need his success story to impress us with.

It speaks to the power and glory of God.

We can be -- if that's what you wanted.

Alas, your words and attitude have already made your intentions abundantly clear -- you don't want to be anyone's "friend" -- you want to be their mentor, just as you are with Walt.

Give it up, Zong -- you have your reward.

I am no one's mentor. Just a wise friend.

Zongerfield · May 9, 2011

tulc said:
Sounds familiar:
tulc(just sayn')

No, indirection and passive aggressiveness are difficult for me to understand. Say what you mean, plainly and directly. Don't leave me to interpret your meaning, it's bad form.

But I forgive you and I will pray for you.

HosannaHM · May 9, 2011

I really feel like I'm watching how NOT to witness to someone

Nathan Poe · May 9, 2011

Zongerfield said:
What's wrong with my word choice?

come·up·pance
   http://app.dictionary.com/signup/po...lbackAction=addToFav&domaindest=reference.com/ˌkʌmˈʌp əns/

Show Spelled[kuhm-uhp-uh ns]

Show IPA
noun Informal . deserved reward or just desserts, usually unpleasant: He finally got his comeuppance for his misbehavior.

So -- am I to understand that I am to receive "comeuppance" for correcting you?

No, you've been coy all along. But I feel now we are getting somewhere.

Not if you continue to be patronizing and insulting.

This not ironic. Most English teachers and pseudo-intellectuals that work in schools, both parochial schools and public schools, are atheists. There are very view Jesuits and Nuns still teaching college and high school.

Couldn't resist another insult, could you?

I suppose that lifestyle appeals to you. But you are better than those people.

Actually, no, I'm not.

They are all decent and honest people who enjoy playing hard on weekends after long weeks of working hard.

You, on the other hand, have tried to relegate them as inferiors without bothering to know anything about them, and are trying to insinuate yourself into my "friendship" by insulting my current friends.

No, we are all cracked vessels.

Indeed -- you might want to look to your own cracks before presuming to try to repair other people's.

I am here to make friends, to profess my covenant with the Lord, to bear witness to his love, to assist others in their quest to find the Lord.

Have these conversations given you any insight as to why you've failed in all of these tasks?

Plus, I am lonely. Despite my friends at church and my community, I've made some poor decisions in my early life which has left me a very lonely person. I have God and Scripture, which is really all I need, but sometimes when I am at home, by myself, I am lonely.

Then obviously you need more. There is no shame in admitting that -- but you need to approach the human condition on an equal footing, not from a position of (self-perceived) superiority.

In short, try talking to people, not down to them.

Nobody blames you -- it's not your fault you're this way.

Pride comes before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall... I don't believe I have the hubris you believe I do.

And yet you've demonstrated it repeatedly -- just now you tried to get me to look down on my friends just like you were.

What is it besides pride and contempt that compels you to spit on people you don't know?

Despite my convictions about the Lord, which form an unshakable foundation, I have many insecurities about my looks, and health, etc.

It shows in your attempts to promote yourself according to what you believe to be your one strength -- your "faith."

Alas, you haven't done a very good job at all.

Maybe, but if you recall Shiloh, he had keen insight:

Foemen at morn, but friends at eve
Fame or country least their care:
What like a bullet can undeceive!

We all face the same fate, and when we are lying on our death beds, foes or friends we are all the same, except for those who have the Grace and the Love of the Lord on their side. Bullets or death can undeceive and turn enemies into friends, but the Love of the Lord can save!

Saved from what? A damnation of His own design?

If ever there was anything we needed saving from, the God of the Bible is it.

I find Twain's insight to be rather keen as well:

If I were to construct a God I would furnish Him with some way and qualities and characteristics which the Present lacks. He would not stoop to ask for any man's compliments, praises, flatteries; and He would be far above exacting them. I would have Him as self-respecting as the better sort of man in these regards.
He would not be a merchant, a trader. He would not buy these things. He would not sell, or offer to sell, temporary benefits of the joys of eternity for the product called worship. I would have Him as dignified as the better sort of man in this regard.
He would value no love but the love born of kindnesses conferred; not that born of benevolences contracted for. Repentance in a man's heart for a wrong done would cancel and annul that sin; and no verbal prayers for forgiveness be required or desired or expected of that man.
In His Bible there would be no Unforgiveable Sin. He would recognize in Himself the Author and Inventor of Sin and Author and Inventor of the Vehicle and Appliances for its commission; and would place the whole responsibility where it would of right belong: upon Himself, the only Sinner.
He would not be a jealous God -- a trait so small that even men despise it in each other.
He would not boast.
He would keep private His admirations of Himself; He would regard self-praise as unbecoming the dignity of his position.
He would not have the spirit of vengeance in His heart. Then it would not issue from His lips.
There would not be any hell -- except the one we live in from the cradle to the grave.
There would not be any heaven -- the kind described in the world's Bibles.
He would spend some of His eternities in trying to forgive Himself for making man unhappy when he could have made him happy with the same effort and he would spend the rest of them in studying astronomy.

Yes, he is probably my most successful story.

Trust me -- we've noticed.

I would like you and others to acknowledge how the Lord helped to turn his life around.

How the Lord helped turn his life around? Surely He did all the work, wouldn't you say?

But he is not my only success story. There are others. I talk about him because he is the only one I have mentioned thus far.

I suspect that will change soon.

No, Walt never liked Mark Twain. He didn't approve of Twain's lifestyle.

Now that's ironic.

That is left for you to consider. But I will give you some scripture to help guide you in your reflection:

If you can't figure it out, then you're the one who needs the scripture's help, not me.

It speaks to the power and glory of God.

But of course -- He helped.

I am no one's mentor. Just a wise friend.

Then perhaps I should give you some Scripture:

Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Proverbs 11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

tulc · May 9, 2011

Zongerfield said:
No, indirection and passive aggressiveness are difficult for me to understand. Say what you mean, plainly and directly. Don't leave me to interpret your meaning, it's bad form.

But I forgive you and I will pray for you.

uhmmm...I thought it was pretty obvious what I was saying.
tulc(isn't really indirect or passive aggressive, but thanks you for the (unasked for and not sure why he needs to be forgiven) forgiveness and prayers)

Zongerfield · May 9, 2011

tulc said:
uhmmm...I thought it was pretty obvious what I was saying.
tulc(isn't really indirect or passive aggressive, but thanks you for the (unasked for and not sure why he needs to be forgiven) forgiveness and prayers)

Can you please stop talking in the third person. I find it extremely annoying and insulting: "tulc isn't really indirect..."

Tell me in your own words how you feel about me. It's okay, I can confront criticism, especially if it's constructive.

Nathan Poe · May 9, 2011

Zongerfield said:
No, indirection and passive aggressiveness are difficult for me to understand. Say what you mean, plainly and directly. Don't leave me to interpret your meaning, it's bad form.

But I forgive you and I will pray for you.

Tulc is a friend of mine, Zongerfield.

You insult my real life friends, you insult my forum friends, and you then claim to want my friendship?

Bad form, indeed.

Zongerfield · May 9, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
come·up·pance
   /ˌkʌmˈʌp əns/ Show Spelled[kuhm-uhp-uh ns] Show IPA
noun Informal . deserved reward or just desserts, usually unpleasant: He finally got his comeuppance for his misbehavior.

So -- am I to understand that I am to receive "comeuppance" for correcting you?

When have you corrected me? I understand we disagree about certain things, but when have you corrected me?

Try not to take things so literally. I know that may be difficult due to your profession.

Not if you continue to be patronizing and insulting.

I'm trying to establish a bond, building on those things in which you like. The best way to relate to someone, is talk about those things in which they are passionate about.

Couldn't resist another insult, could you?

Not an insult. Most English teachers I've come across are atheists.

Actually, no, I'm not.

They are all decent and honest people who enjoy playing hard on weekends after long weeks of working hard.

You, on the other hand, have tried to relegate them as inferiors without bothering to know anything about them, and are trying to insinuate yourself into my "friendship" by insulting my current friends.

Good people don't do illicit drugs, have explicit sex with multiple partners, drink vats of alcohol. I'm sorry, but they don't. Now, that doesn't mean they can't change there ways and become Good people, but sinful behavior poisons the soul.

Indeed -- you might want to look to your own cracks before presuming to try to repair other people's.

I do address my cracks with guidance and direction from the Lord our Savor Jesus Christ.

Have these conversations given you any insight as to why you've failed in all of these tasks?

Failure? The only time one fails is when they stop trying, and you won;t see me walking away.

Then obviously you need more. There is no shame in admitting that -- but you need to approach the human condition on an equal footing, not from a position of (self-perceived) superiority.

In short, try talking to people, not down to them.

I don't feel I'm talking down to anyone. If anything, I'm telling people the truth as I see it. Some people mistakenly assume that it's condescension, when in reality it's the unvarnished truth.

And yet you've demonstrated it repeatedly -- just now you tried to get me to look down on my friends just like you were.

What is it besides pride and contempt that compels you to spit on people you don't know?

Vulgarians and druggies and alcoholics are troubled souls, and many of them are beyond the pale. Many of them have no hope and are aligned with the Devil's purposes.

It shows in your attempts to promote yourself according to what you believe to be your one strength -- your "faith."

Alas, you haven't done a very good job at all.

This is your opinion. Others believe otherwise.

How the Lord helped turn his life around? Surely He did all the work, wouldn't you say?

The Lord was an integral part to his reformed lifestyle. And God is the only way in which one can be saved.

Zongerfield · May 9, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
Tulc is a friend of mine, Zongerfield.

You insult my real life friends, you insult my forum friends, and you then claim to want my friendship?

Bad form, indeed.

We're not always going to get along with each other's friends. We need to accept that.

Tulc is very condescending talking in the third person. He does it on purpose to assert his superiority.

tulc · May 9, 2011

Zongerfield said:
Can you please stop talking in the third person. I find it extremely annoying and insulting: "tulc isn't really indirect..."

No, I really can't. I'm sorry you find it annoying and insulting. I'm not really sure why you would but since I only only do it when I'm closing my post perhaps you should just stop reading when you see my name at the end?

Tell me in your own words how you feel about me.

uhmmm that particular post wasn't about you, it was addressing a question you had asked Nathan Poe about. That would be why I only posted that portion of the original post.

It's okay, I can confront criticism, especially if it's constructive.

I have to be honest here: you really don't seem able to take it very well, heck when people weren't even talking about you, you started having a hard time. You were claiming being persecuted and reviled in a thread that was one of the more polite threads on CF. You then started passing out forgiveness for "sins against you" where none had occurred. And when that was pointed out you got even more worked up about it. So I'm going to have to say, you really don't (if this thread is used as evidence) take even "barely there, not even real criticism" very well.
tulc(Zongerfield, stop reading now: could really use another cup of coffee)

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