I don't believe in evolution... (2)

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by faith guardian http://www.christianforums.com/t7548635-post57410565/#post57410565
He could have given help only to the faithful, like you suggest. Instead He said: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." (
excerpted from Matthew 9:12)
And what's more Clirus, His disciples offered and gave help even to those who were not believers.

Clirus response
All are sick until they accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Please quote where disciples offered and gave help even to those who were not believers.

Clirus, how about a scripture that proves that Jesus helped those that were not Christians? See below
Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Boy



LUKE 9

37 The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him. 38 A man in the crowd called out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39 A spirit seizes him and he suddenly screams; it throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It scarcely ever leaves him and is destroying him. 40 I begged your disciples to drive it out, but they could not.”

41 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Bring your son here.”

42 Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the impure spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father. 43 And they were all amazed at the greatness of God.


Clirus, how about you quote a scripture that backs up your statement that Jesus only helps Christians

 

[Zongerfield]

Does it matter which time we pray?

For you, no. Because you are not going to pray at all. You've made your antipathy for the Lord clear.

He still loves you though. When you're, he'll be waiting for you.

 

[TheReasoner]

For you, no. Because you are not going to pray at all. You've made your antipathy for the Lord clear.

He still loves you though. When you're, he'll be waiting for you.

Well Zongerfield... I don't subscribe to the notion that time is the same to God as it is to us. And I'm not sure precisely what you want us to pray for. I said so before, I would like to be your friend, but I'm not so sure you're mine. I mean, you know I'm extremely far left politically, am I not a "liberal wastrel" in your eyes?
And I'm still a little unclear if you want me to be put in prison for that, Mac-Arthy style political imprisonment. Or if you want me dead for it, like Clirus does.

So... I don't know Zongerfield. When you've spoken to me and others here it's been mostly derogatory. And as you continued after you were asked to stop and presented with the reason why I can't help but wonder if your proposal is friendly or if I should be expecting a dagger in the back.

Poe:
Correct me if I'm wrong Poe, but what you've made clear, or so it seems to me, is your dislike for Clirus' and Zongerfields' portrayal and representation of Christianity, and their presentation of Christian ideals?

Is that roughly right?

Zongerfield What if Nathan decided to DO pray? And now you've just smacked him one in the proverbial gob with an assumption and an accusation. Maybe it's right. Nathan will have to answer that, but regardless. Odd behavior for one who would call himself one's friend, Z.

 

[Nathan Poe]

For you, no. Because you are not going to pray at all. You've made your antipathy for the Lord clear.

First you invited me to pray with you -- now you insult me. Very odd.

Nobody blames you, Zongerfield -- it's not your fault that you're this way.

He still loves you though. When you're, he'll be waiting for you.

Tell you what -- I'll pray at exactly 6:23 P.M. Eastern Time -- if you'd like to join me and be a part of my prayer group, you may.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Poe:
Correct me if I'm wrong Poe, but what you've made clear, or so it seems to me, is your dislike for Clirus' and Zongerfields' portrayal and representation of Christianity, and their presentation of Christian ideals?

Is that roughly right?

That's about it -- which is precisely why Zongerfield didn't answer my question, and why he will refuse my offer -- folks like Zong and clirus don't want Christian fellowship -- they want power.

Zongerfield only wants us to pray as long as we do it at a time and circumstance of his own choosing; that way he can feel like he's in charge.

Zongerfield What if Nathan decided to DO pray? And now you've just smacked him one in the proverbial gob with an assumption and an accusation. Maybe it's right. Nathan will have to answer that, but regardless. Odd behavior for one who would call himself one's friend, Z.

Once it became clear that I was not going to give Zongerfield the deference he thinks he's entitled to, he was no longer interested in my "friendship."

 

[Zongerfield]

That's about it -- which is precisely why Zongerfield didn't answer my question, and why he will refuse my offer -- folks like Zong and clirus don't want Christian fellowship -- they want power.

Zongerfield only wants us to pray as long as we do it at a time and circumstance of his own choosing; that way he can feel like he's in charge.

Once it became clear that I was not going to give Zongerfield the deference he thinks he's entitled to, he was no longer interested in my "friendship."

You are my friend [period]. Which is why I don't pull punches with you or others I disagree with (like Charlie about his father). I don't want you to like me for an unctuous persona that isn't me (like some Christians do to hide their true beliefs), I'd rather give it to you straight, and let you like me for who I am, rather than who others would like me to be.

I am a Christian, and you are a anti-theist. Our friendship doesn't make sense on paper, but I see hope for you and I respect your insights and opinions. And, I don't want to see you burn in the hearth of hell.

Let's continue to converse with no expectations regarding what our friendship should or shouldn't be. And if you decide to pray, at whatever time, I will pray with you.

Bless you. I forgive you and I will pray for you.

 

[TerranceL]

For you, no. Because you are not going to pray at all. You've made your antipathy for the Lord clear.

He still loves you though. When you're, he'll be waiting for you.

Unless you die first, then you go to hell.

But he still loves you.

....

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

You are my friend [period]. Which is why I don't pull punches with you or others I disagree with (like Charlie about his father). I don't want you to like me for an unctuous persona that isn't me (like some Christians do to hide their true beliefs), I'd rather give it to you straight, and let you like me for who I am, rather than who others would like me to be.

I am a Christian, and you are a anti-theist. Our friendship doesn't make sense on paper, but I see hope for you and I respect your insights and opinions. And, I don't want to see you burn in the hearth of hell.

Let's continue to converse with no expectations regarding what our friendship should or shouldn't be. And if you decide to pray, at whatever time, I will pray with you.

Bless you. I forgive you and I will pray for you.

I don't want to speak for Nathan, but I'm beginning to think that this "friendship" is one-sided.

 

[Zongerfield]

I don't want to speak for Nathan, but I'm beginning to think that this "friendship" is one-sided.

No, definitely not. We are friends. He's told me about parties he attends and other personal stuff. Although he seems cynical at times, and has a rather wry sense of humor, we are friends.

 

[Nathan Poe]

You are my friend [period]. Which is why I don't pull punches with you or others I disagree with (like Charlie about his father). I don't want you to like me for an unctuous persona that isn't me (like some Christians do to hide their true beliefs), I'd rather give it to you straight, and let you like me for who I am, rather than who others would like me to be.

I can't wait for you to begin -- this current persona of yours is quickly growing tedious.

I am a Christian, and you are a anti-theist.

Not necessarily so -- I am more of an anti-people who use theism as a means to prop themselves above their fellow man.

clirus has long since proven herself to be such a person -- you've accomplished the same goal in a relatively short time.

It's really a kind of hypocrisy, if you think about it -- for all the talk of meritocracy, what exactly does the fundamentalist produce that makes them deserving of the deference and respect they think they're entitled to?

And when a true meritocracy -- for example, the publish-or-perish world of scientific research -- endorses something you personally disagree with, you've got no problems with completely ignoring its work (such as the mountains of evidence supporting evolutionary theory) in favor of... what, exactly?

Our friendship doesn't make sense on paper, but I see hope for you and I respect your insights and opinions.

I do wish I could say likewise, but these conversations have just been all sorts of disappointing from the get-go.

And, I don't want to see you burn in the hearth of hell.

Have no fear -- I won't be burning in anybody's hell.

Let's continue to converse with no expectations regarding what our friendship should or shouldn't be. And if you decide to pray, at whatever time, I will pray with you.

A pity you missed out on the last offer. It may be some time before the mood strikes me again.

Bless you. I forgive you and I will pray for you.

One of these days you're going to have to tell me what it is I keep doing that drives you to "forgive" me -- I'll enjoy doing it so much more if I know what it is.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I don't want to speak for Nathan, but I'm beginning to think that this "friendship" is one-sided.

I suspect that this "friendship" is no-sided -- but at least I'm honest about it.

 

[Zongerfield]

I suspect that this "friendship" is no-sided -- but at least I'm honest about it.

I've already stated we're friends. If you want to publicly renounce our friendship, you can do it and I will oblige.

But I thought we were friends. You don't spend 100s of posts conversing with someone and not walk away with a friendship, at least that's what I believe.

I'm a little disappointed you're being so prickly about this. And, I probably shouldn't have come down on you so hard about praying. However, I hope you understand where I am coming from, I've seen miracles answered through prayer, and I get excited about the prospect of a non-Christian praying to God. I've seen people convert this way. All it takes is 1 prayer, sometimes.

Bless you for your continued friendship.

 

[Ampersand]

This is really depressing. Entertaining, but depressing.

 

[TheReasoner]

I've already stated we're friends. If you want to publicly renounce our friendship, you can do it and I will oblige.

But I thought we were friends. You don't spend 100s of posts conversing with someone and not walk away with a friendship, at least that's what I believe.

I'm a little disappointed you're being so prickly about this. And, I probably shouldn't have come down on you so hard about praying. However, I hope you understand where I am coming from, I've seen miracles answered through prayer, and I get excited about the prospect of a non-Christian praying to God. I've seen people convert this way. All it takes is 1 prayer, sometimes.

Bless you for your continued friendship.

Okay. Tell you what Zongerfield, if you want we can pray together. I'd really like us to pray for you though. It seems to me you struggle a little with relating to other people and some perspective issues. And that's okay, but it can ruin a lot of relationships. So it's best to be rid of it.

Like you, I've seen miracles happen in response to prayer so if you're honestly willing to pray with me and honestly wanting Poe and myself as friends let's make that our prayer focus. What do you say?

 

[Ampersand]

Because he is desperate, and would try anything.

 

[TheReasoner]

Because he is desperate, and would try anything.

Why would the man say “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child.", if they man did not have faith that Jesus could heal is son?

Ampersand is right. The same was bound to be the case for many of the people mentioned in Acts 5, too. And what about when Jesus fed the five thousand Clirus? All of them can't have been believers. Far from it. Yet Jesus fed them.

And the Samaritan, he helped someone he far more than merely likely knew would hold him in disregard, and even discriminate him and his fellow Samaritans. Yet Jesus chose to use him, an outcast, as the protagonist. FURTHERMORE: Jesus also told us to love our enemies and to do good to those who persecute us.

Clirus: your position is antithetical to Christ's teachings.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I've already stated we're friends. If you want to publicly renounce our friendship, you can do it and I will oblige.

Perhaps someday you'll learn that it takes two people to form a friendship -- it will help clear up some of your confusion.

But I thought we were friends. You don't spend 100s of posts conversing with someone and not walk away with a friendship, at least that's what I believe.

Egad, you are new to the internet, aren't you?

I'm a little disappointed you're being so prickly about this. And, I probably shouldn't have come down on you so hard about praying. However, I hope you understand where I am coming from, I've seen miracles answered through prayer, and I get excited about the prospect of a non-Christian praying to God. I've seen people convert this way. All it takes is 1 prayer, sometimes.

And you had your chance to make a sincere and non-patronizing offer -- you blew it, since it's power, not friendship, you're after.

Bless you for your continued friendship.

Nobody blames you; it's not your fault that you're this way.

 

[Zongerfield]

Okay. Tell you what Zongerfield, if you want we can pray together. I'd really like us to pray for you though. It seems to me you struggle a little with relating to other people and some perspective issues. And that's okay, but it can ruin a lot of relationships. So it's best to be rid of it.

Like you, I've seen miracles happen in response to prayer so if you're honestly willing to pray with me and honestly wanting Poe and myself as friends let's make that our prayer focus. What do you say?

Let Poe make that call, I feel disaffected by his continued efforts to shut me down. I feel as though he may be getting tired of my attempts to pray with him. I think if anything we need a cessation of prayers until he comes around to the idea that God loves him despite his attitude toward him and the people that believe in him.

It looks as though some people think I am bullying Poe around. Maybe they're right. So in an effort to reach out to him, I started rereading Edgar Alan Poe's short stories as well as Nathanial West's "Miss Lonelyhearts." I feel as though these individuals have influenced him, so I should revisit their work to see what inspires him.

Poe is largely considered the best-worst American writer for his "genre" fiction and West is, of course, a great satirist and black humorist. I see why Poe is inspired by these two.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Let Poe make that call, I feel disaffected by his continued efforts to shut me down. I feel as though he may be getting tired of my attempts to pray with him.

And yet when I offered you a chance to pray with me, you refused -- why is that?

I think if anything we need a cessation of prayers until he comes around to the idea that God loves him despite his attitude toward him and the people that believe in him.

Why a cessation, Zong? Surely nobody's stopping you from praying, and the prayer itself cannot hurt -- only the vainglorious announcements of prayer.

Or is it the announcement, and not the prayers themselves, that are the reason you're here? It's clearly not the "friendship."

It looks as though some people think I am bullying Poe around. Maybe they're right.

Well, there's you; that's one person -- any others?

So in an effort to reach out to him, I started rereading Edgar Alan Poe's short stories as well as Nathanial West's "Miss Lonelyhearts." I feel as though these individuals have influenced him, so I should revisit their work to see what inspires him.

OR... rather than try to impress us all with your detective work, you could've actually tried asking about my influences, and risked learning something.

I might further suggest that if you bothered to talk to people as equals, as opposed to offering bogus "forgiveness" from on high, your agenda probably wouldn't have been exposed so quickly.

Poe is largely considered the best-worst American writer for his "genre" fiction and West is, of course, a great satirist and black humorist. I see why Poe is inspired by these two.

Sorry -- right Poe, wrong Nathaniel.

Here's a hint: I'm not the first one to find religious fundamentalists to be an antagonist and an embarassment.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Sorry -- right Poe, wrong Nathaniel.

Here's a hint: I'm not the first one to find religious fundamentalists to be an antagonist and an embarassment.

Hawthorne?