I don’t even know what to think anymore

[E.C.]

Unfortunately, this is also very common among Russian Orthodox Christians. Many of them consider themselves better Orthodox than Orthodox Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians, even better than Ukrainian Orthodox and even better than American and other Western Orthodox. Jesus Christ said that the Jews should not boast about their ancestor Abraham. The apostle Paul spoke about the grafted branch (from the Gentiles), that if God did not spare the natural branch (Jews), then He will not spare the grafted branch either. But all this was forgotten in Russia and Ukraine.

For Russia and Ukraine, the state has become higher than Jesus Christ. And this is the tragedy of our peoples. I think that this is why our nations are dying.

This, is why I as an America convert, can never in good conscious be a part of ROCOR nor the Russian Church's diocese in America.

I have been Orthodox since 2006. I was sixteen at the time. I have experienced what I call "Orthodox racism" since a few years after my conversion. What is Orthodox racism in this context? The attitudes that supposedly "Orthodox ethnic groups"; Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians, Arabs, etc; are somehow better than everyone else simply for being from a traditionally Orthodox people. The first time I experienced it was from a Palestinian girl who said, "I will never date you because you are not Arab and I will only date Arabs". Forget the fact that, at the time, I spoke better Levantine Arabic than at least 75% of the Arab-Americans in her parish. But, the worst that I've experienced it from has been Russians. The worst Russians I have experienced it from are 2nd-3rd generation Russian-Americans.

Russians who fled here from Communism, in my experience, have not been racist. They are usually surprised to know that an American is not only Orthodox, but an altar server as well. Usually they want to hear my story and then I am accepted and treated as an equal.

But Diaspora White Russian-Americans are the worst. They have not accepted that the Empire is long gone and believe that going back to it will magically make all the world's problems go away. They think being of Russian descent makes them "more Orthodox" than anyone else. ROCOR has propagandized them into believing that they are the only remnant of "real Orthodoxy" so badly that they would rather go into schism than visit another Orthodox parish that isn't ROCOR. I had an opportunity to serve a hierarchical Liturgy alongside Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA for the first time last year. I invited all of my ROCOR friends. None came. I attend an Antiochian mission in the worst neighborhood of Washington DC and the parents of my goddaughter won't even visit. ROCOR has been brainwashed so effectively that their laity seem to be believe that wishing someone "Merry Christmas, Christ is Born" on December 25th will excommunicate them. I was once even turned away from Communion by a ROCOR priest because I am what he called a, "dirty American convert".

Valeriy, thank you for bringing up this point. I do not like this war, but I do not feel sorry for Russia. Those who fled from Communism in the last half of the Soviet Union were some of the most wonderful people I've met. Unfortunately they White Russian Diaspora that refuses to call itself American, even after 70+ years of being here, and supports Putin never learned that lesson.

This kind of fell off my radar after my earlier posts about false and evil language that we have been taught to repeat unawares.

I think both Dogheaded and Valeriy, for example, have expressed truths even in their disagreement. I think the chief mistake, where anyone makes it, is in ignoring or dismissing a statement by the “other side” that has some justice.

Rus, I'm sorry that I can not properly respond to your post. Unfortunately our reasonable discussion will be lost in the further continued rhetoric here. Before I bow out of this thread I want to highlight your statement here.

It is very easy to accuse the other side of doing wrong. It is even harder to admit when your own side has done wrong. Russia is wrong for waging a stupid war in the 21st century trying to disguise it as an anti-Nazi war when Putin's Russia is a swastika and Roman salute away from being a Fourth Reich. Putting the three-bar cross as the face of it won't make it kosher either. Conversely Ukraine is wrong for alienating, demonizing, and scapegoating the pre-war 18% of their population. Making a deal with schismatics and Constantinople isn't the solution either; there is a proper way to bring schismatics back into the Church and the way they did it was not it.


They both suck. They are both wrong. And not matter the outcome at the end of the fighting, they will both have lost. There are no winners in this war. Neither Russia or Ukraine nor Constantinople have the monopoly on Orthodoxy. None of them are the "pope" of Orthodoxy whom everyone else must follow. As we say in the Divine Liturgy, "Put not your trust in princes or sons of man in whom there is no salvation". Perhaps that is why the Russian Church will never use the Russian language: if the people understood that line and took it to hard we likely may not have been put into this mess.

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

This, is why I as an America convert, can never in good conscious be a part of ROCOR nor the Russian Church's diocese in America.

I have been Orthodox since 2006. I was sixteen at the time. I have experienced what I call "Orthodox racism" since a few years after my conversion. What is Orthodox racism in this context? The attitudes that supposedly "Orthodox ethnic groups"; Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians, Arabs, etc; are somehow better than everyone else simply for being from a traditionally Orthodox people. The first time I experienced it was from a Palestinian girl who said, "I will never date you because you are not Arab and I will only date Arabs". Forget the fact that, at the time, I spoke better Levantine Arabic than at least 75% of the Arab-Americans in her parish. But, the worst that I've experienced it from has been Russians. The worst Russians I have experienced it from are 2nd-3rd generation Russian-Americans.

Russians who fled here from Communism, in my experience, have not been racist. They are usually surprised to know that an American is not only Orthodox, but an altar server as well. Usually they want to hear my story and then I am accepted and treated as an equal.

But Diaspora White Russian-Americans are the worst. They have not accepted that the Empire is long gone and believe that going back to it will magically make all the world's problems go away. They think being of Russian descent makes them "more Orthodox" than anyone else. ROCOR has propagandized them into believing that they are the only remnant of "real Orthodoxy" so badly that they would rather go into schism than visit another Orthodox parish that isn't ROCOR. I had an opportunity to serve a hierarchical Liturgy alongside Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA for the first time last year. I invited all of my ROCOR friends. None came. I attend an Antiochian mission in the worst neighborhood of Washington DC and the parents of my goddaughter won't even visit. ROCOR has been brainwashed so effectively that their laity seem to be believe that wishing someone "Merry Christmas, Christ is Born" on December 25th will excommunicate them. I was once even turned away from Communion by a ROCOR priest because I am what he called a, "dirty American convert".

Valeriy, thank you for bringing up this point. I do not like this war, but I do not feel sorry for Russia. Those who fled from Communism in the last half of the Soviet Union were some of the most wonderful people I've met. Unfortunately they White Russian Diaspora that refuses to call itself American, even after 70+ years of being here, and supports Putin never learned that lesson.


Rus, I'm sorry that I can not properly respond to your post. Unfortunately our reasonable discussion will be lost in the further continued rhetoric here. Before I bow out of this fight I want to highlight your statement here.

It is very easy to accuse the other side of doing wrong. It is even harder to admit when your own side has done wrong. Russia is wrong for waging a stupid war in the 21st century trying to disguise it as an anti-Nazi war when Putin's Russia is a swastika and Roman salute away from being a Fourth Reich. Putting the three-bar cross as the face of it won't make it kosher either. Conversely Ukraine is wrong for alienating, demonizing, and scapegoating the pre-war 18% of their population. Making a deal with schismatics and Constantinople isn't the solution either; there is a proper way to bring schismatics back into the Church and the way they did it was not it.


They both suck. They are both wrong. And not matter the outcome at the end of the fighting, they will both have lost. There are no winners in this war. Neither Russia or Ukraine nor Constantinople have the monopoly on Orthodoxy. None of them are the "pope" of Orthodoxy whom everyone else must follow. As we say in the Divine Liturgy, "Put not your trust in princes or sons of man in whom there is no salvation". Perhaps that is why the Russian Church will never use the Russian language: if the people understood that line and took it to hard we likely may not have been put into this mess.

Oh wow being turned away…Lord have mercy!

 

[Dorothea]

Russia is wrong for waging a stupid war in the 21st century trying to disguise it as an anti-Nazi war when Putin's Russia is a swastika and Roman salute away from being a Fourth Reich. Putting the three-bar cross as the face of it won't make it kosher either. Conversely Ukraine is wrong for alienating, demonizing, and scapegoating the pre-war 18% of their population. Making a deal with schismatics and Constantinople isn't the solution either; there is a proper way to bring schismatics back into the Church and the way they did it was not it.


They are both wrong. And not matter the outcome at the end of the fighting, they will both have lost. There are no winners in this war. As we say in the Divine Liturgy, "Put not your trust in princes or sons of man in whom there is no salvation".

Aside from the Nazi reference. They are present in both Ukraine and Russia.

As to the rest of what you said, I agree. This war is doing nothing but pleasing the evil one by destroying thousands of lives. This war should end, but I don't see it happening. Too much $$ to still be made somehow by the MIC.

In any case, I would like to emphasize that quote of yours here because it is paramount, imo: "And no matter the outcome at the end of the fighting, they will both have lost." - And it is such a tragedy.

 

[Dewi Sant]

Oh wow being turned away…Lord have mercy!

Abbot Tryphon gives a good recollection of how a young man was told to go elsewhere because the parish viewed themselves as gatekeepers to the ethnicity of their church.

I have only felt this once in a church (which I shall not name), but they didn't so much as tell me to leave, as just made me feel very unwelcome. Nothing so much as a 'hi' after liturgy (the entirety of which is in a language other than English [in England]).
I kept attending for a while before leaving conveniently when Covid happened and they didn't do any ministry for over a year (not even zoom or whatever). My faith suffered and it's only just getting back to where it may have been back then.

Generally, wherever I am, I go to the nearest Orthodox church, regardless of the jurisdiction. Great Britain is not Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Romanian etc., so until there is an Orthodox Church of Great Britain*, I give no preference to any.

This has since got a little more complex with the breach in unity between Moscow and Constantinople, but I understand that applies to the clergy and not the laity. Perhaps I am wrong, but regardless, since then I have attended the church of my chrismation, so it's a moot point in personal practice.

*ratified by all jurisdictions as autonomous and having no 'daughterhood' to any, so as to avoid future schisms over communion. Yeah, a fanciful pipe dream, but we can hope haha

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am sorry to hear of such bad experiences. as an OCA priest, I have always felt welcome at ROCOR parishes and monasteries.

 

[rusmeister]

There has been none on display here to criticize. There is only you who is so insecure about his own position that he can't address or cope with what anyone else says.

Hi!
I agree with a lot of the things you say. I think Nick fails to convince because of a hardcore partisan attitude that says “my” side did/will/can do no wrong, whereas the other side consists of demons. There is nothing that can be said on their behalf.”

But I don’t think you succeed, either, because in order to convince, we need to try, hard, to find any right or justice at all in the other’s position, and to criticize as kindly as possible. Electronic communication doesn’t naturally lend itself to that; you have to make a special effort to communicate kindness. Love without truth is simply false love, it isn't love, but truth without love is... well, there’s a Scripture verse for that.

 

[rusmeister]

As for Ukrainization, you don't know history well. Until 1917, the Ukrainian-speaking population lived along the Azov region as far as Taganrog (now Russia). And language is not a problem at all. Ukrainian migrants easily learned English, German, French and Polish in one year. Do you think it was really difficult to learn Ukrainian or Russian, if they are very similar? Language was not a problem at all. When life gets worse and you get insulted for not speaking up, it was unfortunate. But not enough to take up arms. When there is material interest in learning a language, it was easy. I knew civil servants from Crimea (ethnic Russians) who, until 2014, learned the Ukrainian language in order to take positions in the civil service. If a Ukrainian or Russian is materially interested, he will learn any language in 1-2 years. Checked. And even more so, he will not shoot a firearm at people because of his language.

The Ukrainians had only one motivation for taking up arms: armed men were coming at them and shooting. It was necessary to fight back. The Russians, as I understood, had a different motivation: they were deceived. Now ordinary soldiers on both sides no longer want to fight. Only the Kremlin forcibly drives them into this meat grinder.

As I understood, you know the Russian language. Then take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnbuCp4py12SNWCc5TI1RHA

Hi!
I hope you understand by now that there is plenty that I agree with you on. Feb. 24th changed many things. I was always against the war; I had friends of the extreme Russian/Orthodox/Stalinist persuasion approach me and effectively threaten me a couple of months prior, beginning the process that led to my leaving Russia. So I hope you don’t think I in any way advocate against a Ukrainian state as such, or think that I believe the excesses of Russian propaganda.
But I have also said why you don’t convince me altogether, or those who don’t wholeheartedly agree with you. You are dismissive of any observations that suggest that the Ukrainian side ever did anything itself that was provocative in nature. You posit an innocent government. I consider an innocent human government to be at least as remarkable as the claim that Christ is risen from the dead. Now we do believe the latter, but admit that it is remarkable and unique in human history. The same level of credibility is not due to the idea that the Ukrainian government never did anything to anger Russians, but you ask us to believe that. I don’t, and dismissing concerns and charges that do show the Ukrainian side to be at least a little murky, even if the Russian government is ten times as murky. Then you say I don’t know history well. Since I lived through a lot of that personally, and at close range, it’s hard not to see that remark as unreasonably dismissive.

You dismiss the issue of Ukrainization. But it is enough for me to point out to my fellow Americans the sense of outrage if Americans did the same thing to Mexicans and the Spanish language in the United States. I can rest my case on that alone.From that standpoint, Ukrainization was a big mistake, and wildly counterproductive in the end. So was trading a Russian toady, who at least got officially elected, for Western toadies that pretended to offer EU and NATO membership that they never intended to deliver. So was putting an intention to join NATO into the Ukrainian constitution, though it is an incredibly inappropriate thing to put into a national constitution, a determination to join a passing political alliance. It was a mistake to back the schismatic “Church” against the canonical Church, as if the Church was a political creature in its nature. It was a mistake for the government to affiliate itself with the Azov Battalion, giving a grain of truth to the idea that Ukrainians support actual Nazism.

If there had been no Ukrainization, there would have been no separatist movement, no annexing of the Crimea, no shelling in the Donbass, no Orange Revolution, no plundering of the Pecherskaya Lavra and arrest of Church hierarchs, and no war today. There could have been that economic alliance between the three Slavic states that they really did consider, there could have been a very different history. And yes, Ukrainization was a response, albeit an unreasonable one, to past Russian wrongs and oppression of Ukraine. There was an opportunity to leave those wrongs in the past and build a new future, and the Ukrainian government played its role in blowing it.

If you would admit at least some justice (however mistaken you might think me), you might get a little closer to convincing me of something, anyway. I already admit Russian evils that are not mere propaganda but are real and decisively ascertained. I don’t think any side is wholly innocent. I think Russia made a terrible mistake in invading. Its ostensible aim, to warn NATO to come no closer, cannot succeed and is a waste, because the real aim of NATO is no longer legitimate defense of nations, but as a machine to pump trillions of dollars and euros into pockets already far too wealthy for their own good. The invasion certainly failed as a way of achieving unity with Ukrainians. I have PLENTY of criticism of Russia. My objection is that you are not so fair-minded; you see “Ukraine innocent and good, Russia evil and bad”, end of story.

And videos that wholly convince you don’t convince me more than halfway, because they are partisan, and promote that narrative that convinces only those already convinced of it. I say halfway because I say that there IS some truth in them. But only half of the truth.

 

[Not David]

This, is why I as an America convert, can never in good conscious be a part of ROCOR nor the Russian Church's diocese in America.

I have been Orthodox since 2006. I was sixteen at the time. I have experienced what I call "Orthodox racism" since a few years after my conversion. What is Orthodox racism in this context? The attitudes that supposedly "Orthodox ethnic groups"; Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians, Arabs, etc; are somehow better than everyone else simply for being from a traditionally Orthodox people. The first time I experienced it was from a Palestinian girl who said, "I will never date you because you are not Arab and I will only date Arabs". Forget the fact that, at the time, I spoke better Levantine Arabic than at least 75% of the Arab-Americans in her parish. But, the worst that I've experienced it from has been Russians. The worst Russians I have experienced it from are 2nd-3rd generation Russian-Americans.

Russians who fled here from Communism, in my experience, have not been racist. They are usually surprised to know that an American is not only Orthodox, but an altar server as well. Usually they want to hear my story and then I am accepted and treated as an equal.

But Diaspora White Russian-Americans are the worst. They have not accepted that the Empire is long gone and believe that going back to it will magically make all the world's problems go away. They think being of Russian descent makes them "more Orthodox" than anyone else. ROCOR has propagandized them into believing that they are the only remnant of "real Orthodoxy" so badly that they would rather go into schism than visit another Orthodox parish that isn't ROCOR. I had an opportunity to serve a hierarchical Liturgy alongside Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA for the first time last year. I invited all of my ROCOR friends. None came. I attend an Antiochian mission in the worst neighborhood of Washington DC and the parents of my goddaughter won't even visit. ROCOR has been brainwashed so effectively that their laity seem to be believe that wishing someone "Merry Christmas, Christ is Born" on December 25th will excommunicate them. I was once even turned away from Communion by a ROCOR priest because I am what he called a, "dirty American convert".

Valeriy, thank you for bringing up this point. I do not like this war, but I do not feel sorry for Russia. Those who fled from Communism in the last half of the Soviet Union were some of the most wonderful people I've met. Unfortunately they White Russian Diaspora that refuses to call itself American, even after 70+ years of being here, and supports Putin never learned that lesson.


Rus, I'm sorry that I can not properly respond to your post. Unfortunately our reasonable discussion will be lost in the further continued rhetoric here. Before I bow out of this thread I want to highlight your statement here.

It is very easy to accuse the other side of doing wrong. It is even harder to admit when your own side has done wrong. Russia is wrong for waging a stupid war in the 21st century trying to disguise it as an anti-Nazi war when Putin's Russia is a swastika and Roman salute away from being a Fourth Reich. Putting the three-bar cross as the face of it won't make it kosher either. Conversely Ukraine is wrong for alienating, demonizing, and scapegoating the pre-war 18% of their population. Making a deal with schismatics and Constantinople isn't the solution either; there is a proper way to bring schismatics back into the Church and the way they did it was not it.


They both suck. They are both wrong. And not matter the outcome at the end of the fighting, they will both have lost. There are no winners in this war. Neither Russia or Ukraine nor Constantinople have the monopoly on Orthodoxy. None of them are the "pope" of Orthodoxy whom everyone else must follow. As we say in the Divine Liturgy, "Put not your trust in princes or sons of man in whom there is no salvation". Perhaps that is why the Russian Church will never use the Russian language: if the people understood that line and took it to hard we likely may not have been put into this mess.

Never understood the glorification of ROCOR, some parishes also have done things Orthodox accuse Greeks of doing such as closing churches and enforcing masks. Plus, they used to be quick to make new converts priests who latter apostatize, and that's why there is a new rule that you have to be Orthodox for 5 years before becoming a priest.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think in reality you have a canonical Orthodox Church (Russia) now fighting a non-canonical Patriarch Bartholomew-created phony Ukrainian Church headed up by defrocked goons. The canonical clergy in Ukraine are being arrested, tear-gassed, bludgeoned, detained, and battered in an attempt to "root out" real Orthodoxy in the country. It's heart-wrenching to watch the videos of canonical legitimate Orthodox Christians on Sunday being tear-gassed out of their lovely temples.

To be fair, the Ukraine is no innocent Winnie the Pooh here. They had a legitimate president in a legitimate election that was observed and monitored by voter groups and watchdogs in Europe that openly certified it as valid. Yanukovitch. But when Yanukovitch wanted out of the EU process that they had begun to take on seriously and when he declared an alliance with Russia, Victoria Nuland and the U.S. made sure to jump into the water fast. With a nice CIA op, the U.S. made sure the "Revolution of Dignity"/Maidan Revolt kicked in and toppled the legitimate fella in charge. As Russians in Ukraine were being treated like garbage for well over a decade, the West didn't care too much. There was no outcry. As Donbass Orthodox were murdered by Ukrainian paramilitary Nazis and rabble, nobody cared. This war has been a long time coming. McCain, Graham, Mitt, Mitch, Murkowsky, Nancy, Joe, Pencey, and the rest of the Far Left and RINO Republicans were all-in with this coming war well before Putin even started planning his response. The war could've been easily-avoided and, it could be ended right now if NATO and the US sued for peace. When is the last time you saw an American or Ukrainian or Australian or French or English delegation or NATO or UN group meeting with Russia and both sides sitting down to talk about an end to this carnage? It's about hegemony, raw power, establishing a total foothold in the East for the U.S., it's about a globalism that refuses to be deterred. It's about hatred of Russia that is so strong that the West is willing to kill every single solitary Ukrainian to cripple Russia. It's about weakening Holy Orthodoxy and getting Slavs to slaughter Slavs. It's about removing a major obstacle in the new world order and LGBT dominion. Putin, like Trump, doesn't play ball with the WEF anymore. He used to be a part of that cabal, but fell out of it. Maybe God had a hand in that. Who knows? But what is important is we understand this is far more than good guy vs. bad guy Russia. Zelensky is a hypocritical crumb. He controls all media, he arrests religious opposition, has a one-party state (his party) and he's absurdly wealthy. This is a man who used to play a piano with his penis doing stand-up comedy and most of his old comedy acts were about murdering Russians. He played a president on TV in Ukraine and conveniently merged right into the role. People focus on the absolutism and authoritarian side of Putin. Ok. Fair enough. But what about this t-shirt "Winston Churchill" hero that came out of nowhere to lead freedom fighters against the "evil forces" of Russia? A nation that has been steeped in Naziism, white nationalism, rife with corruption and involved in Trump's persecution and scandals, a mob-run nation loaded with human trafficking and the drug trade, bio-labs, and their own oligarchs? How has this corrupt country become the Rebels on Star Wars and Russia the Evil Galactic Empire? The world is never clear-cut black and white anymore. Our media has proven time and again, especially over the past decade, they are NOT to be trusted.....If what you're hearing sounds too good to be true, it likely is.

In September 1872, the synod, chaired by Patriarch Anthimus VI of Constantinople, with Sophronius IV of Alexandria, Hierotheos of Antioch, Sophronios III of Cyprus, and representatives of the Church of Greece participating, issued an official condemnation (excommunication) of what it deemed to be ethnic nationalism within the church, or "ethno-phyletism", as well as its theological argumentation. In condemning "phyletism", the synod in Constantinople had, in fact, defined a basic problem of modern Eastern Orthodoxy.[

In the winter, the Russians declared that they, together with the Muslims (Chechens), were waging a holy war against Ukraine and NATO. As if there are no Orthodox in NATO, and Muslims and Orthodox Christians are already one and the same thing... Before that, Russia waged war against Orthodox Georgia. Before that, Russian Orthodox and Moldovan Orthodox quarreled in Transnistria (Moldova) until bloodshed.

Unfortunately, this is also very common among Russian Orthodox Christians. Many of them consider themselves better Orthodox than Orthodox Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians, even better than Ukrainian Orthodox and even better than American and other Western Orthodox. Jesus Christ said that the Jews should not boast about their ancestor Abraham. The apostle Paul spoke about the grafted branch (from the Gentiles), that if God did not spare the natural branch (Jews), then He will not spare the grafted branch either. But all this was forgotten in Russia and Ukraine.

For Russia and Ukraine, the state has become higher than Jesus Christ. And this is the tragedy of our peoples. I think that this is why our nations are dying.

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Abbot Tryphon gives a good recollection of how a young man was told to go elsewhere because the parish viewed themselves as gatekeepers to the ethnicity of their church.

I have only felt this once in a church (which I shall not name), but they didn't so much as tell me to leave, as just made me feel very unwelcome. Nothing so much as a 'hi' after liturgy (the entirety of which is in a language other than English [in England]).
I kept attending for a while before leaving conveniently when Covid happened and they didn't do any ministry for over a year (not even zoom or whatever). My faith suffered and it's only just getting back to where it may have been back then.

Generally, wherever I am, I go to the nearest Orthodox church, regardless of the jurisdiction. Great Britain is not Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Romanian etc., so until there is an Orthodox Church of Great Britain*, I give no preference to any.

This has since got a little more complex with the breach in unity between Moscow and Constantinople, but I understand that applies to the clergy and not the laity. Perhaps I am wrong, but regardless, since then I have attended the church of my chrismation, so it's a moot point in personal practice.

*ratified by all jurisdictions as autonomous and having no 'daughterhood' to any, so as to avoid future schisms over communion. Yeah, a fanciful pipe dream, but we can hope haha

Lord have mercy!

 

[Nick1000]

As usual the Putin apologists can regurgitate the "Nato threatened me" excuse for Putin, ad nauseum.

Conveniently leaving out the fact that Putin has - for decades- asserted his firm position that Ukraine is part of Russia, is not a sovereign country and is a historical mistake made by both the Soviets and the Bolsheviks. A "historical mistake" that he feels is his destiny to correct and was well on his way to doing it , except it is not going all that well. The notion that Nato and the west are equally responsible along with Russia is absurd. Russia made an imperialist, opportunist move that did not work out. Just like a thug mugging someone in an alley because he thought he could get away with it but ends out being confronted.

The apologists also conveniently fail to not that one of the reasons why NATO increased its forward positions in the region was because Russia had invaded and occupied Crimea- thus confirming that is was on the move.

Putin invaded Ukraine because he has had a decades long plan to do so. And he took a piece of Georgia and paid no price for it. Then he took Crimea and paid no price for it and his idiot advisors Shoigu and Gerasimov advised him that he could take Ukraine in three days, Under Biden, the United States had just had a disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan putting Biden administration weakness and ineptness on full display. Putin figured it was a good time to make his move, since Trump was gone. Or so he thought.

The Russian war against Ukraine was a raw exercise in power. It has devastated Ukraine and the next phase will devastate Russia as well. Just a total disaster. And both parties are not equally responsible. Russia is the aggressor. And they will go until they are stopped. Russia will be lucky to not break into civil war between the various warlords. Such is the greatness of the Russian World these days. All Nato's fault of course, allegedly. Along with Cuba 1964 and the other talking points from the official Putin apologist script.

If Putin were smart he would withdraw to the pre-war lines and agree to some quasi-Minsk negotiations. We know he will declare victory no matter how much he loses so that is a given. If he does not do that, then he is going to lose Crimea as well. And if Crimea begins to go then he edges closer to nuclear war as he continues to become unhinged- which Nato accepts as a possible route that must be dealt with so the saber rattling will not work. The Russian will be more sensitive to all of this as the war advances into Russia in the next year. The days of just watching TV and waving the Russian flag as Ukrainians are slaughtered are over. In the same way that the mobilization brought the war home, and there is more mobilization to come.

Russia also owes Ukraine at least a trillion dollars in reparations for damages in Ukraine. I am talking USD, Rubles not accepted.

Day 510 or so of the 3-Day War.

What a disgrace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As usual the Putin apologists can regurgitate the "Nato threatened me" excuse for Putin, ad nauseum.

Conveniently leaving out the fact that Putin has - for decades- asserted his firm position that Ukraine is part of Russia, is not a sovereign country and is a historical mistake made by both the Soviets and the Bolsheviks. A "historical mistake" that he feels is his destiny to correct and was well on his way to doing it , except it is not going all that well. The notion that Nato and the west are equally responsible along with Russia is absurd. Russia made an imperialist, opportunist move that did not work out. Just like a thug mugging someone in an alley because he thought he could get away with it but ends out being confronted.

The apologists also conveniently fail to not that one of the reasons why NATO increased its forward positions in the region was because Russia had invaded and occupied Crimea- thus confirming that is was on the move.

Putin invaded Ukraine because he has had a decades long plan to do so. And he took a piece of Georgia and paid no price for it. Then he took Crimea and paid no price for it and his idiot advisors Shoigu and Gerasimov advised him that he could take Ukraine in three days, Under Biden, the United States had just had a disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan putting Biden administration weakness and ineptness on full display. Putin figured it was a good time to make his move, since Trump was gone. Or so he thought.

The Russian war against Ukraine was a raw exercise in power. It has devastated Ukraine and the next phase will devastate Russia as well. Just a total disaster. And both parties are not equally responsible. Russia is the aggressor. And they will go until they are stopped. Russia will be lucky to not break into civil war between the various warlords. Such is the greatness of the Russian World these days. All Nato's fault of course, allegedly. Along with Cuba 1964 and the other talking points from the official Putin apologist script.

If Putin were smart he would withdraw to the pre-war lines and agree to some quasi-Minsk negotiations. We know he will declare victory no matter how much he loses so that is a given. If he does not do that, then he is going to lose Crimea as well. And if Crimea begins to go then he edges closer to nuclear war as he continues to become unhinged- which Nato accepts as a possible route that must be dealt with so the saber rattling will not work. The Russian will be more sensitive to all of this as the war advances into Russia in the next year. The days of just watching TV and waving the Russian flag as Ukrainians are slaughtered are over. In the same way that the mobilization brought the war home, and there is more mobilization to come.

Russia also owes Ukraine at least a trillion dollars in reparations for damages in Ukraine. I am talking USD, Rubles not accepted.

Day 510 or so of the 3-Day War.

What a disgrace.

Russia paid all of the Soviet era debts off by herself, including the massive debt Ukraine had amassed. Russia paid Ukraine’s portion, so the Russians would point that out.

Crimea was invaded after the CIA op Maidan revolt and overthrow of a legitimately elected leader. Crimea voted to secede from Ukraine.

You conveniently skip the persecution and butchery of Donbass Russians for years.

You also seem to skip over the Monroe Doctrine and see it as our duty to be world police and enforcers of the LGBT new world order. Ukraine is in Russia’s sphere of influence. None of our business. Leave it to the EU.

But why is America not content to leave it to the EU? Hegemony, power, resources, pipelines, and forced values.

None of our business….

You mention this “Putin apologist script.” I have yet to read one. How about the Zelensky script? You know, the Jewish guy who used to do comedy acts playing the piano with his penis and standup jokes about murdering Russians? The guy who has one state-run media douche and who is arresting, gassing, and persecuting Russian clergy? The guy who played a president on TV who got in good with oligarchs and now owns tens of millions in homes all over the world? The guy who created a one-party country? How about that panhandler?

Also, you seem to know a ton about Putin’s private motives, inner thoughts, and future plans. Do you have a source from inside the Kremlin? He’s going nuclear? Wow!

 

[Dogheaded]

As usual the Putin apologists can regurgitate the "Nato threatened me" excuse for Putin, ad nauseum.

Conveniently leaving out the fact that Putin has - for decades- asserted his firm position that Ukraine is part of Russia, is not a sovereign country and is a historical mistake made by both the Soviets and the Bolsheviks. A "historical mistake" that he feels is his destiny to correct and was well on his way to doing it , except it is not going all that well. The notion that Nato and the west are equally responsible along with Russia is absurd. Russia made an imperialist, opportunist move that did not work out. Just like a thug mugging someone in an alley because he thought he could get away with it but ends out being confronted.

The apologists also conveniently fail to not that one of the reasons why NATO increased its forward positions in the region was because Russia had invaded and occupied Crimea- thus confirming that is was on the move.

Putin invaded Ukraine because he has had a decades long plan to do so. And he took a piece of Georgia and paid no price for it. Then he took Crimea and paid no price for it and his idiot advisors Shoigu and Gerasimov advised him that he could take Ukraine in three days, Under Biden, the United States had just had a disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan putting Biden administration weakness and ineptness on full display. Putin figured it was a good time to make his move, since Trump was gone. Or so he thought.

The Russian war against Ukraine was a raw exercise in power. It has devastated Ukraine and the next phase will devastate Russia as well. Just a total disaster. And both parties are not equally responsible. Russia is the aggressor. And they will go until they are stopped. Russia will be lucky to not break into civil war between the various warlords. Such is the greatness of the Russian World these days. All Nato's fault of course, allegedly. Along with Cuba 1964 and the other talking points from the official Putin apologist script.

If Putin were smart he would withdraw to the pre-war lines and agree to some quasi-Minsk negotiations. We know he will declare victory no matter how much he loses so that is a given. If he does not do that, then he is going to lose Crimea as well. And if Crimea begins to go then he edges closer to nuclear war as he continues to become unhinged- which Nato accepts as a possible route that must be dealt with so the saber rattling will not work. The Russian will be more sensitive to all of this as the war advances into Russia in the next year. The days of just watching TV and waving the Russian flag as Ukrainians are slaughtered are over. In the same way that the mobilization brought the war home, and there is more mobilization to come.

Russia also owes Ukraine at least a trillion dollars in reparations for damages in Ukraine. I am talking USD, Rubles not accepted.

Day 510 or so of the 3-Day War.

What a disgrace.

Look at all the magical thinking required for your position. Just look at it man.

 

[rusmeister]

Give me a break, Tapi. Give me a break. Why aren't you fighting in Ukraine? Why aren't you on the front lines with an AK in your hands in the ditches defending the motherland? I agree with Dot that this war shouldn't be happening at all to begin with! While I wish Russia hadn't invaded, the plan all along was that they would and should and must in the eyes of NATO. NATO won't rest until there are pride parades in St. Petersburg and the Village People music going through speakers in Red Square. This is a war on Orthodoxy or else Mike Pompeo wouldn't have met with the EP in Istanbul to create a phony "church" in Ukraine. We have a weak and dangerous Ecumenical Patriarch whom I find guided by dark powers. The West knows it, and they seized on it. We're in trouble here. Lord have mercy on us. The West wanted to split the Orthodox Faith, and if you look at TAW, it's a microcosm of that steady fracturing and damage done.

Look around you. We have Bishop Elpidophoros baptizing the baby of two sodomites, "ordaining" ladies as "Readers," female altar boys, and talk in the Greek circles that is sympathetic at times to abortion and LGBT sin. The Greeks are very much in trouble. I thank the Lord that I'm in a Serbian parish protected by such holy hierarchs. May God continue to bless these men!!!

Hi again!
I largely agree with you, the only balancing point that I would add is that I am well aware of evils on the Russian side as well, and so cannot embrace a view that completely approves of the things Russia has done in the past year or so, either. I know about torture of prisoners in Russia, the crushing of people exposing the evils committed under Stalin in the Soviet Union, The persecution of priests and Russia by the government and the church in Russia for simply praying for peace rather than for the prescribed (secular) victory. No one is innocent in this conflict. That said, I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I don’t think that the partisans of the West will hear you unless you also admit evils committed by the Russian side, including those committed in the name of the Orthodox Faith.
“The other side” is and will be unable and unwilling to hear us if we only cite our own side as unqualified good, and the other side as unqualified evil.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi again!
I largely agree with you, the only balancing point that I would add is that I am well aware of evils on the Russian side as well, and so cannot embrace a view that completely approves of the things Russia has done in the past year or so, either. I know about torture of prisoners in Russia, the crushing of people exposing the evils committed under Stalin in the Soviet Union, The persecution of priests and Russia by the government and the church in Russia for simply praying for peace rather than for the prescribed (secular) victory. No one is innocent in this conflict. That said, I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I don’t think that the partisans of the West will hear you unless you also admit evils committed by the Russian side, including those committed in the name of the Orthodox Faith.
“The other side” is and will be unable and unwilling to hear us if we only cite our own side as unqualified good, and the other side as unqualified evil.

Agreed, Rus. I don’t plan on proposing Putin for potential sainthood any time soon. I’m not happy with his authoritarian approach, and his imprisonment of Navalny bothers me a great deal. I do think he wants a strong Russia, I do believe God has used him to rebuild Orthodoxy in Russia, and I think the West needs someone to push back against their insanity. But where people mysteriously “falling” out of balconies and Novichok just “appears” in the bloodstream of Putin’s enemies, I maintain no illusions, have no fear.

But I tire of these young social Justice warriors who plaster blue and yellow and have “Slava Ukraini” stickers on their cars and who take to the internet calling anyone like me a “Putinista” or “Putin apologist” for presenting the other side of things.

I’m my mind, both sides, East and West, are dictatorships. In the West the LGBT agenda in itself is a new way to cage us all into playing by the rules of the far left. Freedom of speech is dying. Anti-abortionists are “extremists” and anyone advocating against middle schoolers getting their breasts cut off with hormone-blockers thrown in are “radicals.” I’m tired of race Balkanization and atheism. Everything is sexualized. Elections are rife with fraud now. Vaccine mandates and healthcare hijacking. Globalism is nonsense and climate change another cage for us to be put into.

Putin is pretty obvious and forthright that’s he’s an autocratic ruler. Russia has an awful abortion and divorce rate, and church attendance there is pretty low from what I hear. No, Russia is not a shining city on a hill, but these folks shouting “Oooooh, Putin invaded a sovereign nation!!! He plans on reconstituting the old Soviet Union!” are not compelling to me at all.

These liberals and Slava Ukraini folks seem to present contradictory facts. On one hand, Russia is a joke. Their soldiers are poorly-trained and drunk on vodka. They’re clueless boobs conscripted and are tripping over themselves in incompetence. They’re losing losing losing. Heck, Putin’s army is such a joke, the guy has to draft 65-year-old codgers to go fight his bloody war! They’re out of ammo, relying on drones from Tehran, using tanks from the 1960’s, and their satellite intelligence technology infrastructure is 1960’s Sean Connery 007 era! They’re right where Ernst Stavro Blofeld was circa 1966 with You Only Live Twice! They’re running out of precision-guided missiles and they’re no match for HIMARS! The Russians are losers! They’ve lost 200,000 men! Their country is so low in make population that they’re not going to be able to win this!

Ah, and yet, this “mighty” force is going to steamroll into Poland, Hungary, the Baltic states, Moldova, Romania, and usher in a new era of communism!

Heaven help us all! We’re doomed! (Said in my best C-3PO voice).

Can’t have it both ways. If Mother Russia is this inept and fellas like Shoigu are all the Russians have, how could Russia invade NATO countries? Answer—-They wouldn’t.

This was never about Putin re-creating the USSR and iron curtain. It’s about NATO making themselves needed and relevant again. Trump really exposed just how unnecessary, expensive, and passé NATO was. He was pushing the envelope toward pulling us out of NATO and realigning our interests. NATO and the globalists need a boogeyman. Vlad fits the bill nicely!

At a political level, the globalists win. At a spiritual level, Satan wins—-a divided Orthodoxy and non-canonical graceless churches across Ukraine.

You’re right, Russia isn’t sinless. But the West is the true aggressor and they’re loving every minute of it as the useful idiots of the West cry themselves to sleep blaming Putin.

 

[Nick1000]

Clearly Putin has and is improving Russia to the point where very large numbers of Russians are now living the dream- in another country. He has trashed their future and their children's future. in Russia, along with the fact that a large number of them have been killed- with many more to come. Anyone who thinks the war is going to end soon, the sanctions will be reversed, and best and the brightest will return, and the genie will be put back in the bottle has a rude awakening ahead of them.

If Russians cannot care about Ukraine, then at least start caring about Russia- and stop living your life to fulfill what Putin's legacy requires in his mind. And Americans who are cheering on the slaughter of Ukrainians and Russians because it somehow is a proxy war with the Drag Queens in who are taking over their community in California are not helpful either.

 

[Dogheaded]

Hi again!
I largely agree with you, the only balancing point that I would add is that I am well aware of evils on the Russian side as well, and so cannot embrace a view that completely approves of the things Russia has done in the past year or so, either. I know about torture of prisoners in Russia, the crushing of people exposing the evils committed under Stalin in the Soviet Union, The persecution of priests and Russia by the government and the church in Russia for simply praying for peace rather than for the prescribed (secular) victory. No one is innocent in this conflict. That said, I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I don’t think that the partisans of the West will hear you unless you also admit evils committed by the Russian side, including those committed in the name of the Orthodox Faith.
“The other side” is and will be unable and unwilling to hear us if we only cite our own side as unqualified good, and the other side as unqualified evil.

I certainly don't portray the Russians and an unqualified good. But I know I portray the NATO side is an unqualified evil, but I give my reasons... Like starving African children to death because their governments aren't interested in a distant war.

Clearly Putin has and is improving Russia to the point where very large numbers of Russians are now living the dream- in another country. He has trashed their future and their children's future. in Russia, along with the fact that a large number of them have been killed- with many more to come. Anyone who thinks the war is going to end soon, the sanctions will be reversed, and best and the brightest will return, and the genie will be put back in the bottle has a rude awakening ahead of them.

If Russians cannot care about Ukraine, then at least start caring about Russia- and stop living your life to fulfill what Putin's legacy requires in his mind. And Americans who are cheering on the slaughter of Ukrainians and Russians because it somehow is a proxy war with the Drag Queens in who are taking over their community in California are not helpful either.

Nick, that second paragraph is schizo. The first would be true of America if we had a draft.

 

[Lukaris]

post deleted. stupid paywall hit after I had accessed an article 4 years(!) old.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Clearly Putin has and is improving Russia to the point where very large numbers of Russians are now living the dream- in another country. He has trashed their future and their children's future. in Russia, along with the fact that a large number of them have been killed- with many more to come. Anyone who thinks the war is going to end soon, the sanctions will be reversed, and best and the brightest will return, and the genie will be put back in the bottle has a rude awakening ahead of them.

If Russians cannot care about Ukraine, then at least start caring about Russia- and stop living your life to fulfill what Putin's legacy requires in his mind. And Americans who are cheering on the slaughter of Ukrainians and Russians because it somehow is a proxy war with the Drag Queens in who are taking over their community in California are not helpful either.

I’m not saying I’m “helpful,” and I don’t see your rants about Putin as helpful either. An Orthodox subforum is not going to solve geopolitical problems, and it takes a lot of hubris for any of us to believe it could!

So, how was Mother Russia under Yeltsin? Pretty great! Mafia ran the country, crime through the ceiling, a drunk at the helm, military rusting, economy a disaster, untapped energy sources, the Church still in tatters from 70 years of communism, Western states trying to take advantage of the country, and democracy was all in full force. Most Russians will tell you they don’t believe in democracy because for ten years they had it, and it was the worst ten years since Lenin and the boys were roaming the countryside raising cain with the revolutionary red army.

The hyperbole that anyone here is “cheering on the slaughter of Ukrainians and Russians” is beyond ridiculous. Everyone in our forum, myself included, explicitly prays daily for an end to the Russo-Ukrainian War. Every day! Our parish prays for it. Does my priest support Russia over Ukraine? Sure. So do I. So does our whole parish. But do we cheer on death? Of course not! That’s ghastly talk.

Russias future is shot? Only time will tell. The only thing affecting Russia’s economy is sanctions from the West. And even through sanctions, Russia has hung in there. The Ruble has remained strong, and partnering with India, China, Iran, Cuba, Serbia, Venezuela, and other countries, Russia has had to get creative.

What about our futures? Is sending billions upon billions of our tax dollars over seas to gay up the East worth it? We’re running critically low on ammo. China looks on with a grin. They’re loving this! Our economy will suffer, our military will eventually enter the fray, and our readiness is at risk.

Eventually since our military went woke with a flurry of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and gay recruitment videos and campaigns along with a huge increase in gay soldiers, it won’t be long till our boys quit signing up for Uncle Sam. Dying under a rainbow flag isn’t what most warriors want.

Where were the war criminal charges on W. Bush? He illegally invaded a sovereign nation. Where was the war crime outrage on Obama for having Muslim weddings in Afghanistan drone striked? Where was the outrage when Obama and NATO got involved in the “Arab Spring” and Ghaddafi got his lunch or Arabs bombed or Obama supporting Muslim rebels killing Orthodox Christians in Syria? Or Trump drone bombing Soleimani? On and on. NATO
got to carpet bomb Serbia illegally against UN regulations. We got to nuke Japan twice.

Yep. We Americans have such a righteous, upright, holy history that we can stand here and pontificate! Slava Ukraini!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Something we all need to consider is why isn’t NATO/EU/US suing for peace? Where are the peace envoys? Where is the negotiating table? While I think Trump was exaggerating with his 24 hours claim, an end to this war is possible. If the West, supposedly the takers of the high road, cared about peace and Ukrainian lives, why are there no talks, no discussions, no proposals? We’ve seen India and China make suggestions, but what we see with Zelensky is not only fight to the last man, but actually regain Crimea. Beyond infeasible. Never going to happen.

Could the Donbass be a buffer zone? Could Russia and Ukraine recognize the Donbass republics as independent? Could Ukraine put in writing once and for all that they’ll never join NATO? Could the region become neutral, a demilitarized area? There have to be solutions….

What I see is the West cruelly using Ukrainian soldiers as bodies to hurl into the wood-chipper of war to obtain a foothold in Russias back door. We don’t care how many people die there as long as it’s not us.

We better pray China doesn’t strike Taiwan, or we’re cooked.