I don’t even know what to think anymore

Dogheaded

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Also, calling Russia a dictatorship means little in reference to the increasing totalitarianism of the West. The EU might make this forum a place where we can't discuss things like this as early as 2024. And as of August 25, this discussion won't be legal on all major platforms in the EU.

Similarly again to the Biden Administration's big tech censorship of both COVID and Ukraine.

 
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Dogheaded

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Turns out marching blindly into minefields under heavy fire doesn't work very well. So, why did the West recommend it?

 
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prodromos

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Nick1000

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Russians strike Orthodox Cathedral in Kherson.

Last week, Russians strike Orthodox Cathedral in Odesa.

Russian shelling hits a landmark church in the Ukrainian city of Kherson​


 
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Dewi Sant

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under who's jurisdiction was the church in Kherson?
From what I saw, the cathedral in Odesa was under Moscow, which is somewhat confusing.

I don't know what's happening in church politics over in Ukraine, but is this to do with Moscow professing its frustration at the Orthodox Church of Ukraine claiming buildings which are formerly Moscow Patriarchate?
The fog of war is so annoying, we may not know the truth till the dust has settled, and even then, not likely within our lifetime till official secrets acts expire.

The cause of the attack on the cathedral in Odesa still baffles me.
It could have been accidental or intentional attack from Russia. Lowering morale, a story which could be spun as propaganda to enthuse the Russian supporters. Or collateral from crossfire either from Russian or Ukranian forces.
Oddly enough, I didn't see any report in RT about the Odesa cathedral, at least not in the English language outlet.

(reason for editing: I note the English spelling of Odesa has changed from Odessa to reflect the Ukrainian spelling)
 
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Dorothea

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I suspect that Russia is bent on destroying Ukraine's culture (hence the cathedral attack) and breadbasket. "If we can't have it, no one can".
Really? I've seen for months on end and since last year that Ukraine has blotted out everything Russian, including Russian writers like Dostoyevsky.
 
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Dewi Sant

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Really? I've seen for months on end and since last year that Ukraine has blotted out everything Russian, including Russian writers like Dostoyevsky.
Not just in Ukraine. As a sign of solidarity, British universities gained media attention by excluding Dostoyevsky from the required reading on literature courses.
I saw that the church in Kherson is indeed Patriarchate of Moscow, and as the above mentioned article states, Potemkin's remains were removed prior to the attack.

In years to come all sides will wake up from the horrors of this conflict to see the damage done and mourn the loss. Until then, it rages on with the energy only adrenaline can supply.

'In war, whichever side may call itself the victor, there are no winners, but all are losers.' - N. Chamberlain
 
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Dorothea

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Not just in Ukraine. As a sign of solidarity, British universities gained media attention by excluding Dostoyevsky from the required reading on literature courses.
I saw that the church in Kherson is indeed Patriarchate of Moscow, and as the above mentioned article states, Potemkin's remains were removed prior to the attack.

In years to come all sides will wake up from the horrors of this conflict to see the damage done and mourn the loss. Until then, it rages on with the energy only adrenaline can supply.

'In war, whichever side may call itself the victor, there are no winners, but all are losers.' - N. Chamberlain
Oh, I'd forgotten about that -- the EU/West in that area also banning Russian literature. I consider this stupid. No classic literature from any countries should be banned. It's ridiculous.
I haven't seen the news today on the church in Kherson, but it's highly unlikely the Russians would strike their own churches.
 
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prodromos

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I suspect that Russia is bent on destroying Ukraine's culture (hence the cathedral attack) and breadbasket. "If we can't have it, no one can".
I expect that you don't believe the Ukrainians have been using hospitals and schools as shields for their military.
 
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rusmeister

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under who's jurisdiction was the church in Kherson?
From what I saw, the cathedral in Odesa was under Moscow, which is somewhat confusing.

I don't know what's happening in church politics over in Ukraine, but is this to do with Moscow professing its frustration at the Orthodox Church of Ukraine claiming buildings which are formerly Moscow Patriarchate?
The fog of war is so annoying, we may not know the truth till the dust has settled, and even then, not likely within our lifetime till official secrets acts expire.

The cause of the attack on the cathedral in Odesa still baffles me.
It could have been accidental or intentional attack from Russia. Lowering morale, a story which could be spun as propaganda to enthuse the Russian supporters. Or collateral from crossfire either from Russian or Ukranian forces.
Oddly enough, I didn't see any report in RT about the Odesa cathedral, at least not in the English language outlet.

(reason for editing: I note the English spelling of Odesa has changed from Odessa to reflect the Ukrainian spelling)
Language guy here: Changing the spelling of foreign place names established by centuries of English convention is political and illegitimate. You are bowing down to partisan political hacks without knowing it when you compliantly change the spelling because “the media told you to”. The spelling was not established or determined by Russians, even if our ancestors did use Russian Cyrillic to decide how to spell the Ukrainian names. Our English and American ancestors agreed to the spelling for centuries. THEY are the people you have to “blame”, not Russians.

If people who do this were consistent, they would insist that we talk, not about Rome, but about Roma. It would be forbidden to say “Moscow”; we would have to say “Moskva”. And so on. So please don’t change established spelling to unwittingly serve a political agenda.

Well, now that that’s established, is anyone hungry? I hear they’re serving Chicken Kyiv at the Taverna...
 
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Justin-H.S.

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Language guy here: Changing the spelling of foreign place names established by centuries of English convention is political and illegitimate. You are bowing down to partisan political hacks without knowing it when you compliantly change the spelling because “the media told you to”. The spelling was not established or determined by Russians, even if our ancestors did use Russian Cyrillic to decide how to spell the Ukrainian names. Our English and American ancestors agreed to the spelling for centuries. THEY are the people you have to “blame”, not Russians.

If people who do this were consistent, they would insist that we talk, not about Rome, but about Roma. It would be forbidden to say “Moscow”; we would have to say “Moskva”. And so on. So please don’t change esablished spelling to unwittingly serve a political agenda.

Well, now that that’s established, is anyone hungry? I hear they’re serving Chicken Kyiv at the Taverna...
I suppose we ought to start calling Japan "Nihon/Nippon" now since that's what Japanese (or Nipponese) people call their country.
 
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Dewi Sant

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Language guy here: Changing the spelling of foreign place names established by centuries of English convention is political and illegitimate. You are bowing down to partisan political hacks without knowing it when you compliantly change the spelling because “the media told you to”. The spelling was not established or determined by Russians, even if our ancestors did use Russian Cyrillic to decide how to spell the Ukrainian names. Our English and American ancestors agreed to the spelling for centuries. THEY are the people you have to “blame”, not Russians.

If people who do this were consistent, they would insist that we talk, not about Rome, but about Roma. It would be forbidden to say “Moscow”; we would have to say “Moskva”. And so on. So please don’t change esablished spelling to unwittingly serve a political agenda.

Well, now that that’s established, is anyone hungry? I hear they’re serving Chicken Kyiv at the Taverna...
precisely!
I have no issue with using the established forms of placenames in English.
My Englishness overtook me in fear of offending folk

I lived in Suzhou, PRC for a year, and upon returning, an old friend of mine (a military major who lived there when there was a British presence) would correct me, "Soochow"
An Anglo-Indian friend of mine insists his home town being called 'Bombay', rather than Mumbai
And yes, Kiev. When I hear BBC journalists and such pronounce the name of that town, they over-emphasise it as "Kee-eev", which I am fairly certain is far removed from the way the locals call it.
Oh, and I utterly detest hearing 'Paree' (Paris), or 'Romah' (Rome).


In like manner to the politically pedant, I insist on people using the correct noun case when referring to Greek placenames ;)

edit: and Valencia being rendered as 'ValenTHeea'. Yikes (same for 'Bar-THel-own-ar' [Barcelona])
 
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prodromos

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Well, now that that’s established, is anyone hungry? I hear they’re serving Chicken Kyiv at the Taverna...
Alas, some of us are already on the Dormition fast. Maybe in a couple of weeks :oldthumbsup:
Edit:
Not thinking. In a couple of weeks the rest of us will be fasting. How about a month :sorry:
 
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Dogheaded

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Can't read the article. Are you able to post an excerpt?
"The first several weeks of Ukraine’s long-awaited counteroffensive have not been kind to the Ukrainian troops who were trained and armed by the United States and its allies.

Equipped with advanced American weapons and heralded as the vanguard of a major assault, the troops became bogged down in dense Russian minefields under constant fire from artillery and helicopter gunships. Units got lost. One unit delayed a nighttime attack until dawn, losing its advantage. Another fared so badly that commanders yanked it off the battlefield altogether.

Now the Western-trained Ukrainian brigades are trying to turn things around, U.S. officials and independent analysts say. Ukrainian military commanders have changed tactics, focusing on wearing down the Russian forces with artillery and long-range missiles instead of plunging into minefields under fire. A troop surge is underway in the country’s south, with a second wave of Western-trained forces launching mostly small-scale attacks to punch through Russian lines.

Ukraine’s decision to change tactics is a clear signal that NATO’s hopes for large advances made by Ukrainian formations armed with new weapons, new training and an injection of artillery ammunition have failed to materialize, at least for now."

It raises questions about the quality of the training the Ukrainians received from the West and about whether tens of billions of dollars’ worth of weapons, including nearly $44 billion worth from the Biden administration, have been successful in transforming the Ukrainian military into a NATO-standard fighting force.

“The counteroffensive itself hasn’t failed; it will drag on for several months into the fall,” said Michael Kofman, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who recently visited the front lines. “Arguably, the problem was in the assumption that with a few months of training, Ukrainian units could be converted into fighting more the way American forces might fight, leading the assault against a well-prepared Russian defense, rather than helping Ukrainians fight more the best way they know how.”

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has increasingly signaled that his strategy is to wait out Ukraine and its allies and win the war by exhausting them. American officials are worried that Ukraine’s return to its old tactics risks that it will race through precious ammunition supplies, which could play into Mr. Putin’s hands and disadvantage Ukraine in a war of attrition.

In the first two weeks of the counteroffensive, as much as 20 percent of the weaponry Ukraine sent to the battlefield was damaged or destroyed, according to U.S. and European officials. The toll included some of the formidable Western fighting machines — tanks and armored personnel carriers — that the Ukrainians were counting on to beat back the Russians.

President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine acknowledged in late July that his country’s counteroffensive against dug-in Russian troops was advancing more slowly than expected.

“We did have plans to start it in the spring, but we didn’t because, frankly, we had not enough munitions and armaments and not enough properly trained brigades — I mean, properly trained in these weapons,” Mr. Zelensky said via video link at the Aspen Security Forum, an annual national-security conference.

He added that “because we started it a bit late,” Russia had “time to mine all of our lands and build several lines of defense.”

Ukraine may well return to the American way of warfare if it breaks through dug-in Russian defenses, some military experts said. But offense is harder than defense, as Russia demonstrated last year when it abandoned its initial plans to advance to Kyiv.

“I do not think they’re abandoning combined arms tactics,” Philip M. Breedlove, a retired four-star Air Force general who was NATO’s supreme allied commander for Europe, said in an interview. “If they were to get through the first, second or third lines of defense, I think you’re going to see the definition of combined arms.”

But analysts question whether this second wave, relying on attacks by smaller units, will generate enough combat power and momentum to allow Ukrainian troops to push through Russian defenses.

Gian Luca Capovin and Alexander Stronell, analysts with the British security intelligence firm Janes, said that the small-unit attack strategy “is extremely likely to result in mass casualties, equipment loss and minimal territorial gains” for Ukraine."
 
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prodromos

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"The first several weeks of Ukraine’s long-awaited counteroffensive have not been kind to the Ukrainian troops who were trained and armed by the United States and its allies.

Equipped with advanced American weapons and heralded as the vanguard of a major assault, the troops became bogged down in dense Russian minefields under constant fire from artillery and helicopter gunships. Units got lost. One unit delayed a nighttime attack until dawn, losing its advantage. Another fared so badly that commanders yanked it off the battlefield altogether.

Now the Western-trained Ukrainian brigades are trying to turn things around, U.S. officials and independent analysts say. Ukrainian military commanders have changed tactics, focusing on wearing down the Russian forces with artillery and long-range missiles instead of plunging into minefields under fire. A troop surge is underway in the country’s south, with a second wave of Western-trained forces launching mostly small-scale attacks to punch through Russian lines.

Ukraine’s decision to change tactics is a clear signal that NATO’s hopes for large advances made by Ukrainian formations armed with new weapons, new training and an injection of artillery ammunition have failed to materialize, at least for now."

It raises questions about the quality of the training the Ukrainians received from the West and about whether tens of billions of dollars’ worth of weapons, including nearly $44 billion worth from the Biden administration, have been successful in transforming the Ukrainian military into a NATO-standard fighting force.

“The counteroffensive itself hasn’t failed; it will drag on for several months into the fall,” said Michael Kofman, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who recently visited the front lines. “Arguably, the problem was in the assumption that with a few months of training, Ukrainian units could be converted into fighting more the way American forces might fight, leading the assault against a well-prepared Russian defense, rather than helping Ukrainians fight more the best way they know how.”

President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has increasingly signaled that his strategy is to wait out Ukraine and its allies and win the war by exhausting them. American officials are worried that Ukraine’s return to its old tactics risks that it will race through precious ammunition supplies, which could play into Mr. Putin’s hands and disadvantage Ukraine in a war of attrition.

In the first two weeks of the counteroffensive, as much as 20 percent of the weaponry Ukraine sent to the battlefield was damaged or destroyed, according to U.S. and European officials. The toll included some of the formidable Western fighting machines — tanks and armored personnel carriers — that the Ukrainians were counting on to beat back the Russians.

President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine acknowledged in late July that his country’s counteroffensive against dug-in Russian troops was advancing more slowly than expected.

“We did have plans to start it in the spring, but we didn’t because, frankly, we had not enough munitions and armaments and not enough properly trained brigades — I mean, properly trained in these weapons,” Mr. Zelensky said via video link at the Aspen Security Forum, an annual national-security conference.

He added that “because we started it a bit late,” Russia had “time to mine all of our lands and build several lines of defense.”

Ukraine may well return to the American way of warfare if it breaks through dug-in Russian defenses, some military experts said. But offense is harder than defense, as Russia demonstrated last year when it abandoned its initial plans to advance to Kyiv.

“I do not think they’re abandoning combined arms tactics,” Philip M. Breedlove, a retired four-star Air Force general who was NATO’s supreme allied commander for Europe, said in an interview. “If they were to get through the first, second or third lines of defense, I think you’re going to see the definition of combined arms.”

But analysts question whether this second wave, relying on attacks by smaller units, will generate enough combat power and momentum to allow Ukrainian troops to push through Russian defenses.

Gian Luca Capovin and Alexander Stronell, analysts with the British security intelligence firm Janes, said that the small-unit attack strategy “is extremely likely to result in mass casualties, equipment loss and minimal territorial gains” for Ukraine."
Thank you
 
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Lukaris

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In some respects it seems amazing that Ukraine can even launch a counteroffensive. They appear to be outnumbered over 2:1 even by the lowest estimates; they may even be outnumbered over 3:1.


 
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Nick1000

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The assertion that the Ukrainians are struggling in a very difficult and overwhelming scenario is valid and 100% true.

However, the assertion in the article that somehow western training has not served the Ukrainians well and they are having to find other tactics- rather than western approaches is completely and totally bogus.

The success of Ukraine against Russia- in a clearly David and Goliath scenario- confirms beyond doubt that the combination of western training and western equipment with western leaning/receptive troops has been very powerful. The problem is not in the "western methods not working". The problem is that the Ukrainians do not have the equipment needed to carry out what the western approach would be if not constrained. The Americans and/or NATO would not spend a minute trying to clear a minefield without air support and would use long range missiles to take out Russia's air support and ammo depots well into Russia before it reached the front lines. Ukraine does it but is limited to Ukraine. Ukraine is not attempting other ,methods because western ones do not work. They are doing it cause they do not have air power and long range missiles to go with the methods. Subject to change.

Further, it should be noted, that the Russians have also been trying to carry out counteroffensives themselves in the areas they lost in winter, and have not gained an inch. And they are about to lose Bakmut before the month is over. So even though they have the overwhelming advantage in troop numbers, air power, artillery, they are making no progressive with counteroffense either. They are doing well on defense because they are dug in and heavily mined. And that is what it is and I don't try to pretty that up. But if Ukraine breaks through to the land bridge and then they dig in and set mines to defend the land that severs the land bridge while the Ukrainians take down the Crimea/Kersh Bridge, then they will be the ones with the problem.

Ask the Ukrainians what they want and they say they want air cover and long range missiles to do exactly what NATO would do, Not to abandon western training and approach but to carry it out. The west is sending in the newer tanks and has lost quite a few but the Americans/NATO would not even think of or train any Ukrainians to deploy tanks without air cover. As in any war, the militaries fight with what they are given to work with. This is true for both sides.

More to come. Subject to change from week to week. Ukraine is developing more and more home grown drones and long range missiles with each week that goes home. Let's just say,, they are not all as home grown as is represented but if they look like they were developed in Ukraine then it gets NATO off the hook. Similarly, as a colony of China now, Russia is importing supplies from China that they don't want to talk about in the light of day.

One of the countries has invaded a sovereign country as part of their war of choice. The other is a sovereign country fighting and defending their homeland. The one that is fighting a war of choice, should go home, and send a check for one trillion (Usd, not rubles) for a start on reparations.
 
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E.C.

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Really? I've seen for months on end and since last year that Ukraine has blotted out everything Russian, including Russian writers like Dostoyevsky.
They're both erasing each other. One side erasing the other's history does not automatically mean the other isn't doing it either.