• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I desperately need valid proof of creationism.

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
There is good evidence out there for Creation. One of my favs is Creation.com.
Yes there are many Creationist "ministries" online; Creation.com, Answers in Genesis, Creation Research International, and a host of lesser Creation ministries headed by "scientists" with fraudulent credentials like Karl Baugh and Kent Hovind. My objection to them is that they systematically misrepresent conventional science, creating a "straw man" to convince the faithful that scientists, out of ignorance or wickedness, are promoting an easily disprovable theory. Be careful of those sites. If you read something like, "The theory of evolution requires..."or, "Atheistic science says..." you can pretty much bet the ranch that what follows will be a fib.
 
Upvote 0

AvgJoe

Member since 2005
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2005
2,749
1,099
Texas
✟377,816.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I would avoid anything from Creation.com. The stuff there includes easily debunked stuff and outright falsehoods, both of which make one's argument for creationism look pathetic.

Just looking at the above, picking the last one and randomly jumping into it, I come to the Supernova remnants at 16:00. This argument has been debunked for decades, because anyone with a calculator can see that the remnants should be too dispersed to be visible quickly, so of course there are no old SNR.

and so on.

In Christ-

Papias

I'm no astronomer, please provide a link/s to evidence that backs up your statement.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I'm no astronomer, please provide a link/s to evidence that backs up your statement.

Yep, it's always fair to ask for a source - sorry for not giving one initially. It's especially helpful and honest to recognize that experts in a field know a lot more than your or I (I'm not an astronomer either.

So, here is a source. It's part of a larger discussion of supernova remnants and other astronomical claims of creationists.

"As for the supernova remnants, Keith Davies (self taught astronomer; his degree is in education) assumes that supernova remnants (SNR) should be visible for millions of years (wrong), that we see all or most of the ones it is possible to see (wrong again), and so derives from these very bad assumptions a very large number of SNRs in various states that we "should see" but don't.

Obviously, Davies never went SNR hunting in a galactic environment, but I have. For one thing, an SNR becomes essentially invisible, even in a non-crowded environment, within 1,000,000 year tops, maybe less, depending on the specifics of the supernova and environment. But in practice they become essentially invisible long before."

By:
Tim Thompson
NASA/JPL Terrestrial Science Research element
Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer.
Atmospheric Corrections Team - Scientific Programmer.​

Link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/supernova/snrfab.html

In fact, I would encourage use of the index. It's by scientists - and often scientists who are Christians. It honestly gives the facts by the experts, and is endorsed by many scientific societies (which, again, contain many Christians).

As a first check - only a place to start, but a good place to start - one can take any claim by a profit-driven "ministry" like creation.com, and just look it up, by topic, in the index here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

For instance, one could hear their claim at 44:40 in the "cornerstones" video you gave, that there are no ape/human fossils - all are either fully ape or fully human. This can be looked up in the index above, in the paleontology section, to CC050, to see that we have plenty of transitional ape/human fossils, and that they clearly aren't "fully ape" or "fully human", as can be seen in the skulls themselves (linked to at cc050).
hominids2_big.jpg


Skull "A" is a modern chimp. You can see that skull "B" is very similar - pretty much an ancient ape. The rest of the skulls are transitional, each being younger than the one before it, up to modern humans. C is a little more human, D, a little more human, etc. Skull N is a modern human.

in Christ-

Papias
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

AvgJoe

Member since 2005
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2005
2,749
1,099
Texas
✟377,816.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Yep, it's always fair to ask for a source - sorry for not giving one initially. It's especially helpful and honest to recognize that experts in a field know a lot more than your or I (I'm not an astronomer either.

So, here is a source. It's part of a larger discussion of supernova remnants and other astronomical claims of creationists.

"As for the supernova remnants, Keith Davies (self taught astronomer; his degree is in education) assumes that supernova remnants (SNR) should be visible for millions of years (wrong), that we see all or most of the ones it is possible to see (wrong again), and so derives from these very bad assumptions a very large number of SNRs in various states that we "should see" but don't.

Obviously, Davies never went SNR hunting in a galactic environment, but I have. For one thing, an SNR becomes essentially invisible, even in a non-crowded environment, within 1,000,000 year tops, maybe less, depending on the specifics of the supernova and environment. But in practice they become essentially invisible long before."

By:
Tim Thompson
NASA/JPL Terrestrial Science Research element
Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer.
Atmospheric Corrections Team - Scientific Programmer.​

Link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/supernova/snrfab.html

In fact, I would encourage use of the index. It's by scientists - and often scientists who are Christians. It honestly gives the facts by the experts, and is endorsed by many scientific societies (which, again, contain many Christians).

As a first check - only a place to start, but a good place to start - one can take any claim by a profit-driven "ministry" like creation.com, and just look it up, by topic, in the index here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

For instance, one could hear their claim at 44:40 in the "cornerstones" video you gave, that there are no ape/human fossils - all are either fully ape or fully human. This can be looked up in the index above, in the paleontology section, to CC050, to see that we have plenty of transitional ape/human fossils, and that they clearly aren't "fully ape" or "fully human", as can be seen in the skulls themselves (linked to at cc050).
hominids2_big.jpg


Skull "A" is a modern chimp. You can see that skull "B" is very similar - pretty much an ancient ape. The rest of the skulls are transitional, each being younger than the one before it, up to modern humans. C is a little more human, D, a little more human, etc. Skull N is a modern human.

in Christ-

Papias

Thanks for the links. There's a lot to read there.

Concerning the SNRs, looking at the chart on the video, it gives reference to pages 46-49 of the 19th volume, 3rd issue of their Creation magazine (June 1997), as the source of the information, here~~~> http://creation.com/exploding-stars-point-to-a-young-universe , where reference number 1, of the article, says that the article is based on a paper by Keith Davies, Distribution of Supernova Remnants in the Galaxy, Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, ed. E. Walsh, pp. 175–184, 1994. I made a small attempt to see if this Keith Davies paper is online, didn't see it, so I don't know if it has anything to do with what you posted, but quite frankly, I've exhausted all of the available time that I have, at the moment.

Myself, I've been a Christian for along time but have only recently began an in depth study of origins and Creation. I'd never thought much about the age of the earth but I've never believed in evolution. I believe that every word of the Bible is true, that Genesis should be taken just as it is written, as history, and I believe when Genesis 2:7 says that God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into him the breath of life, and Adam became a living being, that that is how it happened, which excludes Darwinian evolution altogether.

A lot of Christian theology is based on the historical accuracy of the Genesis account. The concept of marriage comes right out of the creation account (Genesis 2:24) and is referenced by Jesus in all three Synoptic Gospels. Our Lord Himself acknowledges that man was created male and female “from the beginning of creation” (Matthew 19:4). These statements, to be comprehensible, rely on the historical accuracy of the Genesis creation account. Most importantly, the doctrine of salvation depends on the existence of a literal person named Adam. Twice in the Pauline Epistles (Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15), Paul links our salvation in Christ with our identification in Adam. Without a literal Adam, there is no literal sin and no need for a literal Savior.

Creation.com probably doesn't have everything right, as I don't believe any person/group does have it all right, but they are light years closer to where I'm at, than those on the other side of the aisle. I do try to investigate both sides of an issue, and if my current understanding is proven wrong, then I have a new understanding. But above all else, God's Word is always right.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for the links. There's a lot to read there.

Concerning the SNRs, looking at the chart on the video,

Yep, as shown above, their SNR article is simply false. As with the claim that there are no transitional fossils, we can both see that it's simply a lie.

I believe that every word of the Bible is true.

Oh, absolutely.

Thanks for the links. ......that Genesis should be taken just as it is written, as history, and I believe when Genesis 2:7 says that God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into him the breath of life, and Adam became a living being, that that is how it happened, which excludes Darwinian evolution altogether......

But that's just your human interpretation. Genesis 1 shows the reflexive poetry structure common in Hebrew poetry, and there are plenty of indications that this isn't intended as literal history, such as Hebrew puns. For example, the Hebrew word for dirt is "Adama". So God form a human out of dirt and named him "dirt".

You can see examples throughout scripture were a literal reading is not intended. For instance, right in the middle of the historical exodus account, God says he flew the Jews out of Egypt using eagles (Ex 19). Of course that's not literally true.

Plenty of Christians as far back as the early Christians in 250 AD, recognized that the Genesis account was figurative poetry. After all, why else would God write about making plants when there was no sunlight?

A lot of Christian theology is based on the historical accuracy of the Genesis account. The concept of marriage comes right out of the creation account (Genesis 2:24) and is referenced by Jesus in all three Synoptic Gospels.

No, a lot of Christian theology is based on the symbolism in Genesis. Heck, the marriage concept is a great example of that - God holds up Adam and Eve as symbols of marriage. If it were literal, and not a symbol, then we'd be expected to change our names to Adam and Eve when we got married, etc.

Our Lord Himself acknowledges that man was created male and female “from the beginning of creation” (Matthew 19:4).

Which agrees with evolution, not a literal reading. Evolution says that our ancestors were male and female from before there were humans, so the first humans were male and female. Note that a literal reading of Genesis actually contradicts what Jesus said, since in the beginning, God only made a male human, (Adam), and it wasn't until later that he made a female (eve) as an afterthought.

This is one of the places where evolution sheds additional light on scripture. After all, being God, Jesus would certainly have known if evolution had been used to create - hence his statement about "male and female" supporting evolution.

Most importantly, the doctrine of salvation depends on the existence of a literal person named Adam. Twice in the Pauline Epistles (Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15), Paul links our salvation in Christ with our identification in Adam. Without a literal Adam, there is no literal sin and no need for a literal Savior.

There can be a literal Adam in evolution. I (and millions of other Christians, including many leaders) see the scripture, Jesus, and Paul telling us that Adam was a transitional form - the first to cross the line to be human. Thus, he realized he could rebel against God, and the fall happened - giving us literal sin and a need for a literal savior.

Creation.com probably doesn't have everything right, as I don't believe any person/group does have it all right,

That's like saying that "the flat earthers may not have everything right, and the astronomers at NASA may not have everything right, so they are equally likely to be true. " Practically all the experts (including those who are Christians) agree that evolution is right. We've already seen two lies from creation.com, and there are plenty more.

....... they are light years closer to where I'm at, than those on the other side of the aisle. .......

but isn't that deciding something based on what want to be true, and not on the evidence or the experts? I mean, I would love to think that cancer doesn't exist, but - just like in any other case where we decide something based on our own wishes instead of evidence and experts - that would be wishful thinking.

..... if my current understanding is proven wrong, then I have a new understanding. But above all else, God's Word is always right.

Yep. And I don't think that it's a salvation issue either way. I'm sure that whichever is correct - if God did use evolution to create, or if He used some other method (like molding dirt), then there will be many Christians who accept either one who are equally saved.

And yes - God's Word is always right. : )

My thoughts, anyway.

Papias[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
  • Winner
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
As a first check - only a place to start, (. . . ) one could hear their claim at 44:40 in the "cornerstones" video you gave, that there are no ape/human fossils - all are either fully ape or fully human. This can be looked up in the index above, in the paleontology section, to CC050, to see that we have plenty of transitional ape/human fossils, and that they clearly aren't "fully ape" or "fully human", as can be seen in the skulls themselves (linked to at cc050).
hominids2_big.jpg


Skull "A" is a modern chimp. You can see that skull "B" is very similar - pretty much an ancient ape. The rest of the skulls are transitional, each being younger than the one before it, up to modern humans. C is a little more human, D, a little more human, etc. Skull N is a modern human.

Papias

This kind of evidence is utterly inconclusive. Similar morphology in the living species is never considered the basis for descent between them. It's far more complicated than that.

So let's tackle the issues one at a time, good-diagnostics style.

First and easiest is the skull morphology alone, without regard for the dating issues. By analogy we could use any of a host of animals or plants, either current or fossilized examples, or both. And if we include fossils at all in comparison, then we can best see the problem of your logic by looking at any of the far more numerous fossils of some plant that still exists today.

But, for the interest of a wise diagnostic, let's first just stick with plants or animals that are current.

"But", your logic still hums along in the background, "Many plants and animals are empirically known to have changed over time. For example, look at the change wrought in the canidae in just a few hundred years."

Right. Yet, I am unaware of any claim that a species of, say, dandelion has been breeded into becoming a rose, or of a wolf into becoming a puma. You may say this is immaterial and ridiculous, but you will have missed the point. The point is not genetic macro-morphology, as you assume. It is a complex issue, not one that takes its cue from a single, and conceptually very generalized, phenomenon.

But, you are trained to think that a very little sampling of skull morphology, combined with a little dating claims, establishes beyond doubt that some population of "ape-like" apes in the past evolved into what now are any-and-all modern humans.

Yet the primates (including humans) are more complex than roses, and thus they are not just their skulls. So, even if gradual-and-random genetic progressive evolution were real, there is not even enough time in the past universe for apes to have evolved into humans.

According to your simple logic, all we need to establish that some modern humans are (d)evolving into apes is to find some modern human who, because of some disease, has his skull deformed in a way that makes it look more like that of some present ape's than like that of the average European.

There are some modern breeds of dogs that look more like cats than like wolves. But I don't hear a single professional biologist claim this proves that the canids are the product of the evolution of non-canids. Such an evolution is believed, but on what basis?

You are trained merely to jump to the particular conclusion that you already assume. The question is why you keep assuming it, or, more importantly, why you have adopted it in the first place. That, too, is a complex issue.


.
 
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
And I don't think that it's a salvation issue either way. I'm sure that whichever is correct - if God did use evolution to create, or if He used some other method (like molding dirt), then there will be many Christians who accept either one who are equally saved. Papias

Indeed, but what say we care for the lost, and for the skeptic, and for wisdom?
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
This kind of evidence is utterly inconclusive.

Which is why practically all scientists, including those who are Christian, accept evolution?

But, you are trained to think ....

That's silly. I'm not "trained" for any such conclusion, or any other conclusion.

.....a very little sampling of skull morphology, combined with a little dating claims, establishes beyond doubt that some population of "ape-like" apes in the past evolved into what now are any-and-all modern humans.

Um, you are aware, I hope, that many different lines of evidence show the fact that humans evolved from earlier apes, right? Just a few include pelvis/leg shape and age (from literally hundreds of fossils), DNA (from both ancient and modern samples), many different dating methods that confirm each other, comparative anatomy, histoprotein chemistry, geography of fossils, skull morphology and many transitional fossils, endogenous retrovirii, nested features, atavisms (like humans born with tails), vestigial organs, vestigial DNA, poor "designs", and more.

So, even if gradual-and-random genetic progressive evolution were real, there is not even enough time in the past universe for apes to have evolved into humans.

Of course there is. Dozens of dating methods have established the geologic time scale beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm happy to provide an example of these, but first must ask if you have any support for your claim that there is "not even enough time in the past universe for apes to have evolved into humans.". Do you?

Such an evolution is believed, but on what basis?

The reality of evolution is an awfully big topic. I recommend taking a biology course at a University for starters. If you want an overview, a good overview is here: 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

You are trained merely to jump to the particular conclusion that you already assume. The question is why you keep assuming it, or, more importantly, why you have adopted it in the first place. That, too, is a complex issue.

That's like if I said you are "just trained" to "jump to the conclusion" that things are made of atoms or that diseases are caused by germs. You are ducking the reality that practically all experts in those fields accept those realities (germs, evolution, atoms...) based on evidence and millions of person-years of research. To oppose all that work and evidence, you offer trash talk about "assumptions". It's not very convincing.

Indeed, but what say we care for the lost, and for the skeptic, and for wisdom?

All of them are best served by Christians who bring a gospel free from outdated, incorrect, human interpretations of scripture, and instead show the glory of God's creation in our modern world.

In Christ-

Papias
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The reality of evolution is an awfully big topic.

Don't you mean to say that the set of evidences from which both (a) metaphysical naturalism and (b) ...the Christian thing draw is an awfully big topic. You make it sound too much like atheism is steamrolling your own Christianity, and leaving the Bible to pick up its own pieces after your out-of-the-way Christian hamlet has been decimated by this 'reality of evolution'.

And, do I assume correctly that you are perfectly aware that every one of the 'evidences' of evolution you cite have ongoing back-and-forth rebuttals and counter-rebuttals between evolutionists and creationists?

practically all scientists, including those who are Christian, accept evolution

Do I assume correctly that your use of 'practically' there is not meant to steamroll anyone? You make it sound like anyone who knows anything would and should just assent to your 'reality' of mice-to-men evolution. Surely, that is not what you intend to do here, is it? Make everyone hand over their minds to that 'reality' without a second thought, without any healthy remnant of skepticism?

Just because you've bought it hook line and sinker doesn't mean others should just forget the actual debate. I feel sure you know it exists. What I am not sure of is whether you have dealt with the case-by-case counters to that 'practically' of yours. If such cases exist, you must ask why they exist. They started out believing as you do, and, then, for some reason (was it a newfound preference for self-deception on their parts?), they began seeing that the pro-evolution 'evidences' didn't stack up.

.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Don't you mean to say that the set of evidences from which both (a) metaphysical naturalism and (b) ...the Christian thing draw is an awfully big topic. You make it sound too much like atheism is steamrolling your own Christianity, and leaving the Bible to pick up its own pieces after your out-of-the-way Christian hamlet has been decimated by this 'reality of evolution'.
This is a Christians-only forum. No one party to this discussion is a metaphysical naturalist.


Just because you've bought it hook line and sinker doesn't mean others should just forget the actual debate. I feel sure you know it exists. What I am not sure of is whether you have dealt with the case-by-case counters to that 'practically' of yours. If such cases exist, you must ask why they exist. They started out believing as you do, and, then, for some reason (was it a newfound preference for self-deception on their parts?), they began seeing that the pro-evolution 'evidences' didn't stack up.

.
In all cases ever brought to my attention, conversion to Fundamentalist Protestantism preceded the belief that pro-evolution evidence didn't 'stack up.' I don't think there has been a case of an atheist or non-YEC Christian scientist rejecting the evidence on scientific grounds prior to becoming a YEC.
 
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
This is a Christians-only forum. No one party to this discussion is a metaphysical naturalist.

Yep. I'm aware.

I don't think there has been a case of an atheist or non-YEC Christian scientist rejecting the evidence on scientific grounds prior to becoming a YEC.

And I thought they were a dime a dozen!

But, seriously, now. They are by no means hiding. Of course, most of them are not professional scientists. But even of the ones that are, I guess one does not run into their accounts by spending most of one's time not-hanging-out in the very places where they most likely would hang those particular hats. That's the problem in my case, too: it's not my habit to collect them, or even to search for them. I just happen occasionally to find myself reading one. My poor theory of mind tends to preclude my realizing that the whole world is not aware of them by virtue of my reading such autobiographies. Professional scientists who became YEC's only after they began seeing that evolutionary doctrine does not stack up with an unbiased look at the evidence.

Did I mention unbaised? Yes. The evidence does not, left to its own voice, tell anyone the story of mice-to-man evolution. Of course, that's only half the issue, isn't it? One needs an explanation for the evidence. And the only explanation that ye olde non-historical evidence itself can provide...



.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Yep. I'm aware.



And I thought they were a dime a dozen!

But, seriously, now. They are by no means hiding. Of course, most of them are not professional scientists. But even of the ones that are, I guess one does not run into their accounts by spending most of one's time not-hanging-out in the very places where they most likely would hang those particular hats. That's the problem in my case, too: it's not my habit to collect them, or even to search for them. I just happen occasionally to find myself reading one. My poor theory of mind tends to preclude my realizing that the whole world is not aware of them by virtue of my reading such autobiographies. Professional scientists who became YEC's only after they began seeing that evolutionary doctrine does not stack up with an unbiased look at the evidence.

Did I mention unbaised? Yes. The evidence does not, left to its own voice, tell anyone the story of mice-to-man evolution. Of course, that's only half the issue, isn't it? One needs an explanation for the evidence. And the only explanation that ye olde non-historical evidence itself can provide...



.
Still it would be in the interest of the creationist ministries to find and cultivate them. One wonders why they have not done so.
 
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Still it would be in the interest of the creationist ministries to find and cultivate them. One wonders why they have not done so.

They have. In many instantiations. But of course that's not their main concern. The actual science is. For, without the scientific counters to the secular claims, no amount of personal testimonies (from professional scientists) are going to convince anyone.

But, of course, there is no shortage of that kind of testimony from laypersons. But who cares about that? It doesn't hold much weight. There are hosts of these published on the websites of the main YEC ministries (creation.com being my favorite). But who cares? They're just laypeople, right?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
They have. In many instantiations. But of course that's not their main concern. The actual science is. For, without the scientific counters to the secular claims, no amount of personal testimonies (from professional scientists) are going to convince anyone.

But, of course, there is no shortage of that kind of testimony from laypersons. But who cares about that? It doesn't hold much weight. There are hosts of these published on the websites of the main YEC ministries (creation.com being my favorite). But who cares? They're just laypeople, right?
The problem I have with those "ministries" is not that they promote their own views, but that they systematically misrepresent the conventional scientific position in doing so. It's gotten to the point that when a creationist says something like "The theory of evolution says..." or, "Scientists claim..." you can pretty much bet the ranch that what follows will be a fib. Creation.com is a particularly egregious example.
 
  • Like
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The problem I have with those "ministries" is not that they promote their own views, but that they systematically misrepresent the conventional scientific position in doing so. It's gotten to the point that when a creationist says something like "The theory of evolution says..." or, "Scientists claim..." you can pretty much bet the ranch that what follows will be a fib. Creation.com is a particularly egregious example.

Thank's for the heads up. That's good to consider. I've heard such claims before, but it is good to repeat it.

However, as I have not spent more than the occasional and short effort looking that up, all I can say here is: (1) misrepresentation of one's opponent(s) is a common human problem; (2) claims of being misrepresented by one's opponent(s) is by no means a smooth issue, and, therefore (3) we all face hashing it out, including the unfortunate fact that a lot of that hashing will continue to be frustrated. Just because both sides intend a genuine dialogue is hardly guarantee of their obtaining it.

But, of course, such generically general observations is only half the issue. Speaking for my side, I have this to say:

When your side either asks for, or presents, what you call 'evidence', what I find is that your side usually is not asking for evidence, but testimony; And, that, the only testimony they will consider is that with which they already agree.

They then typically either (a) complain that my side should not be so biased, or (b) take their 'evidence' ball and go home, due to their realizing that the debate and 'demonizing' is not going to go away.

Upon that, they seek what they are convinced is a Christlike stalemate, not realizing that it is them, not us, who is serving two masters. You see, yours is the side that allows the very thing upon which every abomination ever is justified, from the USSR, Hitler, and the communist North Korean regime, to the murder of Able and Christ.. In other words, you can spend all day claiming both of your masters, but they are not together going to claim you.

So, you can have exactly one inheritance and one legacy, but it is the latter that you really have to worry about. And you can advertise your belief that God serves two masters. But you cannot openly teach others to believe that while expecting, at worst, an unbiased welcome.


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Upon that, they seek what they are convinced is a Christlike stalemate, not realizing that it is them, not us, who is serving two masters. You see, yours is the side that allows the very thing upon which every abomination ever is justified, from the USSR, Hitler, and the communist North Korean regime, to the murder of Able and Christ.. In other words, you can spend all day claiming both of your masters, but they are not together going to claim you.

So, you can have exactly one inheritance and one legacy, but it is the latter that you really have to worry about. And you can advertise your belief that God serves two masters. But you cannot openly teach others to believe that while expecting, at worst, an unbiased welcome.


.
What is this "very thing upon which every abomination is ever justified" that you think I am guilty of by not being a YEC?
 
Upvote 0

Heifer

When
Nov 4, 2012
18
1
58
Visit site
✟23,043.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
What is this "very thing upon which every abomination is ever justified" that you think I am guilty of by not being a YEC?

The nuances of the issue are not inferior to the summary, but are the reality itself.

So, any answer I can give you even in a few thousand words will be found by most on your side to be woefully flawed. LOL

So you might imagine what I perceive that I am up against by even attempting an answer in a few short paragraphs.

So I can only hope that you will agree that the nuances for the converse position are equally at issue for any answer you might give in denial.

In other words, whether we teach that God created specially in six actual days or, instead, by way of what we think are real providential processes ("reality of evolution is an awfully big topic" talk), the acceptance of either view is not neutral to all other matters.

We can debate all our own lives over which teaching is more supported in the physical reality that we study. But the issue, in my view, is which one, apart from faith in the actual life, death, and resurrection of Christ, fails to lead to such belief. For, I am convinced that merely the 'science' claims of your side have little, if any, power to cause those who accept them while being ignorant of the Gospel to feel a need for Christ. Such persons may realize a need for Christ from other sources, but those said claims do not, of their own, positively inform on that need. If anything, those claims, of their own voice, cause confusion, at best.

Tell me I'm wrong. I predict that you will want to tell me that it is a more complex issue than what I make it out to be.


.
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
14,693
6,620
Massachusetts
✟644,326.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
websites that I have read that seem to completely and almost convincingly refute the idea of creationism
How about if you give us the main or a one main example of what has been especially challenging for you to believe the idea of creationism.

On the Net, in discussing with non-creationists, I have offered reasons why I find that evolution is not possible, but all I have gotten is, "You don't understand evolution," but with no clarification of what I'm supposed to understand, and nothing which obviously proves it. So, it is possible that people will not level with you. And you do not know which Internet claims are correct and which are not.

But I suspect there are people who claim to believe in creation but they are using testing and arguing which do not really prove creation. Possibly, they are wishful, instead of simply believing whatever God gives us.

In any case, you can see how humans can function, in sin. And if you have experienced how Jesus has us becoming, this will prove God to you :)

God proves Himself to us. His word says His word "shall accomplish what I please", in Isaiah 55:11. So, every command and promise and teaching and every description of being children of God is accomplished by God's word. God in us accomplishes all He means >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Our Father in His own creativity does in our willing and doing all He means by His word . . . so we are not limited to how we can get our own selves to do what we can think He means. So, this now is the creating which mainly needs our attention :)
 
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟257,467.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
How about if you give us the main or a one main example of what has been especially challenging for you to believe the idea of creationism.

On the Net, in discussing with non-creationists, I have offered reasons why I find that evolution is not possible, but all I have gotten is, "You don't understand evolution," but with no clarification of what I'm supposed to understand, and nothing which obviously proves it. So, it is possible that people will not level with you. And you do not know which Internet claims are correct and which are not.

But I suspect there are people who claim to believe in creation but they are using testing and arguing which do not really prove creation. Possibly, they are wishful, instead of simply believing whatever God gives us.

In any case, you can see how humans can function, in sin. And if you have experienced how Jesus has us becoming, this will prove God to you :)

God proves Himself to us. His word says His word "shall accomplish what I please", in Isaiah 55:11. So, every command and promise and teaching and every description of being children of God is accomplished by God's word. God in us accomplishes all He means >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Our Father in His own creativity does in our willing and doing all He means by His word . . . so we are not limited to how we can get our own selves to do what we can think He means. So, this now is the creating which mainly needs our attention :)
To be fair, many of us have tried rather exhaustively to clarify the parts of evolution you don't think are possible, yet you seem unwilling or unable to appreciate or accept the explanations. At some point, "you just don't understand evolution" becomes the only rational response.

All due respect and with the best will in the world.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0