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I changed my stance on gun control!!!

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renniks

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I'm afraid they are. Most deaths are suicide. Sixty percent. Why didn't you check?

I eagerly await your arguments against the availability of rope and access to tall structures.
BTW suicide should not even be included in gun violence stats. It's decieving.
 
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dogs4thewin

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then what that tells me is he used force or threat of force to commit the offense that should be a felony, but that would be considered a violent felony. If he had simply gone in and just taken the case of beer then that would likely just be considered a shoplifting which is not a felony unless the person A steals property totaling over a certain amount (varies by state) or B has a record of theft offenses (in some states).
 
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dogs4thewin

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If a person chooses to kill themselves, the gun is certainly irrelevant. People around here seem to like hanging themselves for some reason even though everyone has guns. I don't understand it.
May be to avoid the mess brains everywhere.
 
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renniks

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No, they snuck through a window in a closed store. Like the law I quoted says any robbery is considered violence in Pa.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You said he was a teenager at the time. I think juvenille records are sealed once a person turns 18.
depends on the state and the crime. In most cases the records are sealed at 18 or 21, but sometimes they will charge people younger than that as an adult or some states have a longer sealing period for certain violent crimes even if committed and convicted as a juvenile.
 
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Bradskii

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If a person chooses to kill themselves, the gun is certainly irrelevant. People around here seem to like hanging themselves for some reason even though everyone has guns. I don't understand it.

Maybe you should ask the families of the million or so people who used a gun to kill themselves. Ask them if they thought it was a good idea to have guns around the house while you're at it.

An anecdote which illustrates the thought processes of some people re guns. In a forum a few years ago, a guy was arguing pro guns. Didn't see a problem. Had a few in his house. They're safe. Cars are more dangerous, guns don't kill people etc. Ad nauseum. And then someone joined the conversation who pointed out that a few years earlier, in the same forum, before some of us had joined, he had told how his kid brother had been accidently shot and killed because his old man kept guns in the house and, kids being kids...

So if seeing your brother's head being blown off in the back yard doesn't change your position on guns then there's no hope possible for a sensible discussion on the matter. Just as is happening in this thread.
 
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dogs4thewin

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No, they snuck through a window in a closed store. Like the law I quoted says any robbery is considered violence in Pa.
but robbery usually involves force or fear ( now you can have burglary which is also a felony in most states and cases that does not involve force or fear or even forced entry. That sounds to me he was convicted of burglary ( again also a felony ( in most cases, but unlike robbery it does not involve force or fear of harm in fact you can commit a burglary without anyone at the home or business and without even forcing entry. Whereas, robbery requires that someone be there as otherwise there is no force (forcing entry usually does not count and there is no one to put in fear
 
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RocksInMyHead

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What law could we pass that would stop gun violence?
What law could we pass that would stop theft? Murder? Anything else that you think should be illegal? The answer is none. Doesn't mean that laws have no effect.
 
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dogs4thewin

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In those cases that sounds like it was on the gun owner for not teaching gun safety and/or keeping the guns where very young children could access them without supervision. That does not suggest people should not keep guns that suggest that people need to be responsiable and teach gun safety and keep guns from very young children and/or people that they know or REASONABLLY should know are mentally unstable.
 
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Bradskii

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BTW suicide should not even be included in gun violence stats. It's decieving.

I see. To reduce the number of gun related deaths, we'll just ignore all the times someone shot themselves in the head. Maybe we can take out the accidents as well. So that guy's kid brother wasn't part of the problem either. Yep, that'll do it. And perhaps we can take out all those killed who had a medical condition as well. Maybe they wouldn't have died if not for that condition. You can't automatically assume being shot is what killed them.

Gee, those numbers are falling fast!
 
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renniks

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Maybe you should ask the families of the million or so people who used a gun to kill themselves. Ask them if they thought it was a good idea to have guns around the house while you're at it.
I know a family who had a member hang himself, should I ask them if they have gotten rid of all ropes since? Killing yourself really isn't that difficult if you are determined.
If you want to talk about real gun violence, maybe you should address the criminal and gang problem, because this is just taking it off topic.
 
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renniks

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Exactly. Accidents aren't gun violence either. People drown all the time. We should outlaw water.
 
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dogs4thewin

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gun violence and a gun death should be considered two different things. Violence is usually done with the intent to harm another person death is well when a person dies
 
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dogs4thewin

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Exactly. Accidents aren't gun violence either. People drown all the time. We should outlaw water.
Moreover many gun related deaths that are accidents can still be charged as involuntary manslaughter it is not as if there is no punishment for certain gun deaths that are the result of accidents assuming that there was negligence on the part of the gun owner.
 
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Bradskii

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It's an attitude problem. You're not going to fix it anytime soon. Cranking up the laws to make it harder to get a gun won't stop the vast majority gettjng one if they want one. But...it serves to highlight the fact that gun ownership and attitudes to guns and gun deaths are exceptionally abnormal in the US. Maybe the 70% that have no problem with stricter controls will then become 80%. And then 90%.

Who knows. Apart from stricter laws, I've got no idea what on earth you can do. And the gun lobby (that'll include you) seems to have no interest in solving the problem. The death rate is one you'll accept.
 
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dogs4thewin

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There are punishments for the gun deaths that are not by a person's own hand ( for the most peart there are some gun deaths that are ruled complete accidents that involve no negligence and therefore no charges should be brought, but for the most part everything but suicide ( a mental issue which for the most part our mental health resources are not very good either and justified homicide gun deaths are punished.
 
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Bradskii

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Exactly. Accidents aren't gun violence either. People drown all the time. We should outlaw water.

No. You educate people as to the dangers. You teach them water safety. You tell them to have respect for the dangers. You have strict rules and regulations re backyard pools. Or maybe you could not offer any practical suggestions at all but trot out a trite sarcastic comment like 'Maybe we should outlaw water'.
 
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Subduction Zone

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One of the reasons that I do not own a gun is because I do not want to become a target of thieves. I do know some troubled people and even if they would not rob me who knows what their friends would do. Gun are often stolen and quickly resold for pennies on the dollar. Smart crooks do not want to be caught with one, but there are plenty that are willing that are not so bright in the first place. Drug usage only makes them more desperate.

I simply do not see a need for a gun in the US.
 
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dogs4thewin

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and we do have gun laws and respnsiable gun owners teach gun safety ( and in fact some states have laws that require you take a gun safety course ( and prove your ability to shoot on target before they will issue you a permit to carry or in some cases even hunt.
 
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