I changed my stance on gun control!!!

[Valletta]

Law enforcement are going against people who threaten violence to government officials (the FBI as it's a federal offence). So let's get that right. And no law enforcement is going after people who are not vaccinated. But they may well take an interest with people who break laws associated with access to venues that have vaccine requirements. Don't get the jab and you lose some freedom. Them's the rules.

Seems a pretty weak argument for buying a gun, but that's your call. And the homicide rate in Minnesota is one of the lowest in the country. If you lived in Louisiana you might have a better argument.

Homicide rates in cities are typically much higher than in outlying areas of states, so by state is not a good indication. Trust me, I've been in some rough cities around the country and world. These cartels that have crossed the southern border. are tough, and they are being aided by our federal government. Focusing on curtailing free speech instead of violent crime is going to cost America for years to come.

 

[Estrid]

I'm sure you really think that's the way it works. Stealing a humvee or a tank or going up against professional well armed soldiers with no organisation or plan and no central command is exactly like a riot where people steal high def TVs. In which case, if that's your Plan A then I don't think that the government has anything to worry about.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading back to reality...

Send a note if you find it. Ive been wondering where it is.

 

[Bradskii]

These cartels that have crossed the southern border. are tough, and they are being aided by our federal government. Focusing on curtailing free speech instead of violent crime is going to cost America for years to come.

Look, there are good reasons why you might feel the need to have a weapon at home. Or even carry one on your person. I'm not one of those who says guns should be banned. So if you want one and you aren't criminally minded or mentally compromised then go get one. But giving risible reasons for owning one such as 'the government are helping cartels' and 'we're concentrating on curtailing free speech rather than concentrating on violent crime' just makes your arguments for gun ownership sound weak and contrived.

 

[Bradskii]

Send a note if you find it. Ive been wondering where it is.

Head due south until you get to the Tropic of Capricorn, where 'the women glow and men plunder'.

 

[Aldebaran]

Look, there are good reasons why you might feel the need to have a weapon at home. Or even carry one on your person. I'm not one of those who says guns should be banned. So if you want one and you aren't criminally minded or mentally compromised then go get one. But giving risible reasons for owning one such as 'the government are helping cartels' and 'we're concentrating on curtailing free speech rather than concentrating on violent crime' just makes your arguments for gun ownership sound weak and contrived.

Can you name any? So far, you've only mocked people for any reason they come up with. I'd love to see you give what you consider to be a "good reason".

 

[Bradskii]

Can you name any? So far, you've only mocked people for any reason they come up with. I'd love to see you give what you consider to be a "good reason".

An armed uprising against the government isn't one. Neither is 'cartels being aided by the government' or claimed restrictions on free speech or the FBI investigating threats of violence. These are some of what I consider to be nonsensical reasons or ones based on fantasy.

One reason for having a gun would be to live in an area where you really felt that your life was in danger. As I said way upstream, if I felt that I had to practice what to do in the event of an armed invasion of my house then I would move. But maybe some people can't move and some people really do live in the civillian US equivalent of a war zone.

So seeing as gun ownership is off the scale when you compare the US to any other civilised democracy, there are three conclusions that can be drawn. Either your country is massively more dangerous than any other equivalent country. Or you are monstrously more paranoid than the rest of the world. Or you simply have this fixation with firearms to the extent that you will argue black is white when anyone suggests that, honestly, you have a problem.

Me? I go a mixture of 2 and 3, accepting that there may be a tiny fraction where 1 is applicable.

 

[Aldebaran]

An armed uprising against the government isn't one. Neither is 'cartels being aided by the government' or claimed restrictions on free speech or the FBI investigating threats of violence. These are some of what I consider to be nonsensical reasons or ones based on fantasy.

One reason for having a gun would be to live in an area where you really felt that your life was in danger. As I said way upstream, if I felt that I had to practice what to do in the event of an armed invasion of my house then I would move. But maybe some people can't move and some people really do live in the civillian US equivalent of a war zone.

So seeing as gun ownership is off the scale when you compare the US to any other civilised democracy, there are three conclusions that can be drawn. Either your country is massively more dangerous than any other equivalent country. Or you are monstrously more paranoid than the rest of the world. Or you simply have this fixation with firearms to the extent that you will argue black is white when anyone suggests that, honestly, you have a problem.

Me? I go a mixture of 2 and 3, accepting that there may be a tiny fraction where 1 is applicable.

Another reason may be that those who live in safe areas (or so they think) keep seeing violent home invasion crimes happening in other such safe areas where it's oh so common for folks to say, "That would never happen around here" end up surprised when it eventually does happen there. That's when reality strikes, and people who live in what they thought was a safe area decide to have something to protect themselves with.
Those who speak so much for gun control, or are outright anti-gun around here have been some of the biggest gun buyers over the past year as violence happened in many places where those same people felt so safe, and trusted that the police (at least when funded) would always be there to protect them. Reality does funny things when it strikes people, and I guarantee that your attitude would change if violent criminals broke into your home and violated your sense of security.

 

[Bradskii]

Another reason may be that those who live in safe areas (or so they think) keep seeing violent home invasion crimes happening in other such safe areas where it's oh so common for folks to say, "That would never happen around here" end up surprised when it eventually does happen there. That's when reality strikes, and people who live in what they thought was a safe area decide to have something to protect themselves with.
Those who speak so much for gun control, or are outright anti-gun around here have been some of the biggest gun buyers over the past year as violence happened in many places where those same people felt so safe, and trusted that the police (at least when funded) would always be there to protect them. Reality does funny things when it strikes people, and I guarantee that your attitude would change if violent criminals broke into your home and violated your sense of security.

So it's more the first reason. You really do live in an extremely dangerous society. Or at least, you think you do.

 

[Aldebaran]

So it's more the first reason. You really do live in an extremely dangerous society. Or at least, you think you do.

Well, sure! When someone believes they live in a safe area with nice decent people all around them, and then when times get tough, one of those nice people breaks into your home and violates the security you once felt, your views change. You don't feel so safe anymore. The home that you once felt safe and secure in now start to feel like just another building surrounded by people who are willing to do what it takes, and take what they need. If you know that most other people are armed, and you're not, it makes sense to equip yourself to defend yourself and those you love.
Or you could go from saying, "That could never happen around here" to saying, "I doubt that will ever happen here again".

 

[Estrid]

Head due south until you get to the Tropic of Capricorn, where 'the women glow and men plunder'.

Ive been considering it. Hope Chinese arre welcome.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

To ask OB's question in another way, why is it only in the US that people feel the need to protect themselves in that way? Where on earth do you live? Is it that dangerous? If it is, then you have some real problems that you need to solve. Your home must be like some kind of fortress.

Government at all levels has failed to deal with criminality therefore the proliferation of guns, concealed carry, stand your ground/castle doctrine laws, etc.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Stable, free countries? I guess that depends on one's defination of freedom.
And we are armed because that's what our founders wanted.

The Founders were actually backed into a corner regarding private gun ownership. Like the English before them our government saw the necessity of an armed populace. Neither had the resources to protect the general population from criminal behavior.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Still supports the concept that 300 million guns in the US is not beneficial to our societies well being.

Gun violence is just an indicator that we are doing something terribly wrong, kinda like a warning light. Turning off the light won't solve the problem.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This is the homicide RATE from 1990 to 2021. Homicide RATE takes into account the significant population increase over 30 years. The gun buy back scheme was in 1997 and legal changes took until 2003 to pass in each State. Do you see the downward trend from about 1999?

View attachment 309367

Australia Murder/Homicide Rate 1990-2021 | MacroTrends
OB

Weren't there a lot of old firearms turned in, that have been replaced by the purchase of new guns?

 

[Estrid]

Gun violence is just an indicator that we are doing something terribly wrong, kinda like a warning light. Turning off the light won't solve the problem.

A look at who is committing these crimes would tell
you what kind of problem you have.

Ive heard thats a no- no.

 

[Occams Barber]

Weren't there a lot of old firearms turned in, that have been replaced by the purchase of new guns?

Firearms of all ages were turned in in the original gun buy back scheme - not just 'old' firearms. The gun I handed in was two years old. Since it's now 24 years since the original buy back, there have obviously been new gun purchases by those licensed to hold guns. Broadly speaking the number of guns per licensee has increased while the proportion of Australians who hold a gun licence has fallen by 48%. The Australian population has increased by 40% since 1997.

• Australian civilians now own more than 3.5 million registered firearms, an average of four for each licensed gun owner.
• The proportion of Australians who hold a gun licence has fallen by 48 percent since 1997.
• The proportion of Australian households with a firearm has fallen by 75 percent in recent decades.
• Data indicates that people who already own guns have bought more rather than an increase in new gun owners.

New gun ownership figures revealed 25 years on from Port Arthur - The University of Sydney

90% of Australians agree with our strict gun laws. Half of these believe gun laws need to be even stricter.

In Australia, self defence is not a valid reason for owning a gun.

OB

 

[Bradskii]

Government at all levels has failed to deal with criminality therefore the proliferation of guns, concealed carry, stand your ground/castle doctrine laws, etc.

If by 'failed to deal with criminality' you mean that the administrations of Bush, Clinton, Bush jnr, Obama and Trump have overseen a significant drop in violent crime and property crime then you'd be right (although I don't follow your logic). From: What the data says (and doesn’t say) about crime in the United States

And you might note that gun ownership has fluctuated between a low of 37% of households and the present 42% - the rise coinciding with covid. Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2021 | Statista

So your argument doesn't just fail. It becomes incoherent. And I mentioned this earlier, if your arguments prove to be obviously wrong, it damages your whole position. Maybe you need better arguments.

 

[Occams Barber]

Ive been considering it. Hope Chinese arre welcome.

From the last (2016) Australian census

The ten most commonly reported countries of birth for those born overseas were:

1. England (14.7%)
2. New Zealand (8.4%)
3. China (8.3%)
4. India (7.4%)
5. Philippines (3.8%)
6. Vietnam (3.6%)
7. Italy (2.8%)
8. South Africa (2.6%)
9. Malaysia (2.2%)
10. Scotland (1.9%)

While the most common birthplace for those born overseas remains England (15% of the overseas-born population), there has been an increase between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses in the proportion of people born in China (6.0% to 8.3%) and India (5.6% to 7.4%). The proportion of those born in New Zealand has decreased over the same period, dropping from 9.1% to 8.4% of the overseas-born population.
2071.0 - Census of Population and Housing: Reflecting Australia - Stories from the Census, 2016 (abs.gov.au)
​

Chinese settlement in Australia goes back to the Gold Rush.

(2015) While the United States of America had the highest total number of people born overseas (47 million or 14% of their population),2 Australia had a higher proportion of overseas-born people, at 26%. Australia also had a higher proportion of people born overseas than our neighbour New Zealand (23%) and Canada (22%),3 other countries founded on migration.​

OB

 

[Aldebaran]

Firearms of all ages were turned in in the original gun buy back scheme - not just 'old' firearms. The gun I handed in was two years old. Since it's now 24 years since the original buy back, there have obviously been new gun purchases by those licensed to hold guns. Broadly speaking the number of guns per licensee has increased while the proportion of Australians who hold a gun licence has fallen by 48%. The Australian population has increased by 40% since 1997.

• Australian civilians now own more than 3.5 million registered firearms, an average of four for each licensed gun owner.
• The proportion of Australians who hold a gun licence has fallen by 48 percent since 1997.
• The proportion of Australian households with a firearm has fallen by 75 percent in recent decades.
• Data indicates that people who already own guns have bought more rather than an increase in new gun owners.

New gun ownership figures revealed 25 years on from Port Arthur - The University of Sydney

Not surprising. The more difficult and expensive it is to do or have something, the fewer people there will be that do it. The Australian government has obviously known that.

90% of Australians agree with our strict gun laws. Half of these believe gun laws need to be even stricter.

Why? Is Australia seeing too much gun crime still?

In Australia, self defence is not a valid reason for owning a gun.

When the need for self defense arises, it's a valid reason to have whatever you need.

 

[Occams Barber]

Not surprising. The more difficult and expensive it is to do or have something, the fewer people there will be that do it. The Australian government has obviously known that.

Absolutely - and Australians are completely on board with making people jump through hoops to justify gun ownership

Why? Is Australia seeing too much gun crime still?

It's strange but we've found that if you make guns hard to get you automatically reduce gun crime (and accidental gun injuries). We call it "prevention".

When the need for self defense arises, it's a valid reason to have whatever you need.

It's a straightforward risk assessment where allowing free access to guns creates far more dangers than restricting access. It's another one of those situations where we tend to favour collective responsibility over individual wants.

A bit like Covid vaccination.

OB