I am your healer

[Bobber]

And nor does Isaiah 53 (it says we are healed from sin, not physical sickness).

That's your assertion you'd like to make. Sorry SW but it doesn't matter how bold you want to make it that fact is that Mt 8:17 uses Isaiah 53:4 and the backing to heal all the physically sick that Jesus dealt with there. From the Bible below,

"When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:“He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases.” Matt 8: 14,17

 

[swordsman1]

There isn't a record of ONE time where one came to Jesus and he refused to heal them. Why should you not think the Centurion would not know about that when he heard about what was going on with Jesus. Again can you show me one time in the gospels where ANYONE came to Jesus where he said he was not willing to heal? Except for an odd case like Lazarus where God was going to raise him up but in a different way.

We are not told what the centurion knew beforehand. You speculating, and adding your own presumptions to the text, is not proof. The fact the centurion, via his messengers, had to plead with Jesus, arguing his case to persuade him, tells us he didn't believe his request for healing was guaranteed.

 

[swordsman1]

I know he asked, "If you are willing" But the answer to that is meant to be understood for all humanity....I am willing to heal you. If you're wanting to reject that as a universal truth that is meant to apply to you then I guess you'll stay in your place of uncertainty. Others will accept healing as a part of God's ordered grace but just remember no questioning God why God why at some future time when all the time you've set aside you're to believe you receive when you pray. Mk 11:24You've openly said here you won't do that.

That is nonsense. Jesus was clearly replying to the man, not humanity.

But again you are missing my point, which is what did the lame man believe. The man clearly tells Jesus what he believes "you can make me clean", not "you will make me clean".

I'd say you've overlooked one of the greatest reasons Jesus healed the sick and that it because of God's mercy and compassion. Religious leaders in Christ's day did the same. They created theological frameworks which removed the heart of God out their way of thinking. This would lead them into not even accepting that Jesus should heal on the sabbath day. OK why did Jesus heal the sick. To prove his deity? That's a part of it but don't set aside the heart of God. He healed because of his compassion.

But the crowds found out about it and followed Him on foot from the towns. 14When He stepped ashore and saw a large crowd, He had compassion on them and healed their sick. Matt 14:30

So is Jesus the same loving compassionate Savior today? Is he the same yesterday, today and forever? Is he something else than what he was in the gospels? I think not. God, Jesus has just as much compassion and love to all of us today as he had to the people of his day! And what did he do for them? He brought them HEALING. He loves us in the exact same measure that is for those who'll believe. You also have the theological guarantee it's yours as well so no need to doubt his willingness. By his stripes we are healed Is 53:4 should cover that and for the very reason he used Is 53:4 as a backing to heal physically the crowds in Mt 8: 17 should confirm it beyond question.

I strongly disagree, his compassion wasn't the main reason for healing, and I have scriptural proof. But to debate that now, would be deflecting from the current subject matter. So I will come back to that later, or you can open a separate topic about why Jesus performed miracles.

 

[swordsman1]

That's your assertion you'd like to make. Sorry SW but it doesn't matter how bold you want to make it that fact is that Mt 8:17 uses Isaiah 53:4 and the backing to heal all the physically sick that Jesus dealt with there. From the Bible below,

"When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:“He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases.” Matt 8: 14,17

I've just explained where you have gone wrong. Please read post #358 again carefully.

 

[Aaron112]

It's God's will to save all but sadly not all are saved.

Perhaps better phrased as God's "Desire" to save all, but naturally men refuse to be saved.

 

[Bobber]

Verse 4 was the prophecy that was fulfilled in Jesus's healing ministry. Not verse 5. If it was to include v5 Matthew would have included it. Verse 5 deals with the wounds inflicted upon Jesus when he went to the cross. A completely different subject to his healing ministry.

First of all it's the same passage and the same means verse 4 and 5!

When verse 4 says Surely he took our infirmities and carried our sorrows infirmities in the Heb is choli which means sickness. And when he says by whole stripes you are healed it's all about salvation as being salvation from sins and healing as well. God knew people would question him on that so to have the physically sick healed as the back up verse in Matt 8:17 confirms this. To suggest it's any other way I'd say is being disengeious.

choli: sickness
Original Word: חֱלִי
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: choli
Phonetic Spelling: (khol-ee')
Definition: sickness

 

[Bobber]

And note that Matthew said that the prophecy in v4 was fulfilled by Jesus when he walked the earth.

Once could say I believe when one believes in the declarations of Is 53: 4,5 God is fulfilling on an ongoing basis the receiving of one's covenant rights. Cessationialists have claimed as well the events of Acts 2 were fulfilled meaning completed with no extension going beyond that time but the gifts of the Spirit were functioning way beyond Acts 2. Plus also if healing was DONE because of one incidence in Matt 8 they how did Jesus heal everyone after that?

Plus if Is 53:4,5 are not for today then neither is there salvation of sins. It's all comes out of the same two verses.

He never said it was an ongoing prophecy for us today.

Did he need to? It included sins being forgiven too, Are you saying that's not for today?

 

[Strong in Him]

It's God's will to save all but sadly not all are saved.

No, because people have a choice about responding to the Gospel - you may not believe that, but it's true.
Jesus invited people to follow; "Come to me all who labour ...", Matthew 11:28, "whoever believes in me ...." John 3:16 etc etc. He invited, didn't force, the 12 to follow him; he didn't stop the rich young ruler when he walked away, nor the many who left him after hearing his difficult teaching, John 6:66.

I don't know of anyone, Christian or not, who chooses to be ill or in pain and remain so. There may well be people who hold on to their physical, or emotional, pain so that they can complain about it or be seen as victims to get sympathy - if there are, I don't know them. And when you read testimonies from people like Jennifer Rees-Larcombe, Joni Eareckson, David Watson - born again, Sprit filled Christians who prayed for/claimed/asked in faith/begged for healing yet didn't receive it - either at the time or at all - the question "well why didn't God heal them if HE wanted it, and they clearly did?" becomes almost unanswerable. (Though people HAVE answered it, and blamed the sick person in some way.)

 

[swordsman1]

When verse 4 says Surely he took our infirmities and carried our sorrows infirmities in the Heb is choli which means sickness. And when he says by whole stripes you are healed it's all about salvation as being salvation from sins and healing as well. God knew people would question him on that so to have the physically sick healed as the back up verse in Matt 8:17 confirms this. To suggest it's any other way I'd say is being disengeious.

choli: sickness
Original Word: חֱלִי
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: choli
Phonetic Spelling: (khol-ee')
Definition: sickness

I agree Isaiah 53 verse 4 is a prophecy about physical sickness. Matthew said that Jesus's healing ministry when he walked the earth was a fulfillment of that prophecy. Claiming that Matthew extends that prophecy as a promise of healing for the entire church age is putting words into his mouth.

Verse 5, which was not included by Matthew, has nothing to do with Christ's healing ministry. It is about the wounds inflicted upon Jesus when he went to the cross, which it clearly states was for our sin - "But he was pierced for our transgressions....". So "By his wounds we are healed" in that verse is clearly referring to being healed from sin, not physical healing as you and WoF claim.

Did he need to? It included sins being forgiven too, Are you saying that's not for today?

No, the prophecy in Isaiah 53:4 and quoted by Matthew makes no mention of sin.

 

[Strong in Him]

A faith which believes God answers speedily and stand fast in believing he has and does when you pray

No, that's an assumption.
Faith is not, "believing God answers speedily". Read the faith chapter of the Bible - Hebrews 11. Many were commended for their faith yet they did not all receive what God had promised.
Abraham believed God when he was told he would have as many descendants as stars in the sky; he didn't live to see them all - not even Isaac's children, in fact. Prophets like Isaiah prophesied Jesus coming - they didn't live to see it.

Your definition of faith seems to be that God answers speedily; God didn't appear to answer at all in their cases, yet they believed, and the Bible says they had faith.
And nowhere in the Gospels did Jesus say "believe that I have already healed you, then you will be healed."

 

[Bobber]

No, that's an assumption.
Faith is not, "believing God answers speedily". Read the faith chapter of the Bible - Hebrews 11. Many were commended for their faith yet they did not all receive what God had promised.

But that has to do with context of a subject under discussion. They were looking in FAITH for the ultimate kingdom to come a place where God reigns. Same with us today when we think of the blessed hope.

Abraham believed God when he was told he would have as many descendants as stars in the sky; he didn't live to see them all - not even Isaac's children, in fact. Prophets like Isaiah prophesied Jesus coming - they didn't live to see it. We can also consider as a template way of thinking....Daniel prayed 21 days and the angel appeared and told him that from the first day he prayed God answered. Daniel 10;12 But one has to preserve in FAITH believing God does and has answered our prayers. (more could be said)

Yes agreed.

Your definition of faith seems to be that God answers speedily; God didn't appear to answer at all in their cases, yet they believed, and the Bible says they had faith.

I'd say two things. First he does but like Daniel 10:12 you may have a period of waiting in the natural before you see it manifested. That follows along with the spirit of Mk 11:23 which says believe you receive them when you pray.

And nowhere in the Gospels did Jesus say "believe that I have already healed you, then you will be healed."

I think you know better that that actually should not have to be insisted upon. Let's put down the passage of Mk 11:24

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Mk 11:24

Jesus basically has taught what we know of as the prayer of faith. How can it be anything less when it's subject and theme is believing and receiving and it indeed does cover a potential of multitude of thing....things which are not even defined.

So what' the heart of the matter really. Back to accepting or not accepting that healing is in the atonement or the work that Jesus did on the cross as a provision for one when they're saved. I said a provision I did not say everybody will see it manifested even though that always has been the perfect and best will of God.

Now I will say this perfect and best doesn't always mean God thinks it's perfect and best in the most absolute sense but it was perfect and best generally for their life. I'll explain. One minister I knew who I had great confidence was very close to God was praying for an elderly person. They had a terminal affliction. When he began to pray God told him NO let the person come home. They're just tired of life itself (the natural life) and they have no better time than now to come.////

Ok that doesn't mean healing and well being wasn't good and best and it doesn't mean it didn't belong to them in the covenant. But God has a heart of compassion on them too....If they want to come home God can be good with that to. Everything is not black and white in how things play out BUT healing as being for them in the covenant is.

 

[Bobber]

And nowhere in the Gospels did Jesus say "believe that I have already healed you, then you will be healed."

So we looked at Mk 11:24 which I demonstrated there's no problem applying that to healing. It says in the verse what things soever you desire. Of course you'll never, ever, ever come to place of believing with ANY confidence to even consider believing you receive when you pray because you don't believe, and have chosen not to believe anything substantiates it. (that is when it comes to healing)

I do. I just flat do and won't back down from it. I trust and hope others won't too. When the Bible says in Is 53:4 SURELY he has borne our infirmities I'm not going to take God's SURELY and try to change it. That's what Adam and Eve fell for doing in Gen 2:17 . When God says it's a SURE thing then leave it that way. That then gives you ground to pray the prayer of faith, nothing doubting. If one takes that away from another I feel some day they'll have to give answer for it. Jm 3:1

 

[Guojing]

So we looked at Mk 11:24 which I demonstrated there's no problem applying that to healing. It says in the verse what things soever you desire. Of course you'll never, ever, ever come to place of believing with ANY confidence to even consider believing you receive when you pray because you don't believe, and have chosen not to believe anything substantiates it. (that is when it comes to healing)

I do. I just flat do and won't back down from it. I trust and hope others won't too. When the Bible says in Is 53:4 SURELY he has borne our infirmities I'm not going to take God's SURELY and try to change it. That's what Adam and Eve fell for doing in Gen 2:17 . When God says it's a SURE thing then leave it that way. That then gives you ground to pray the prayer of faith, nothing doubting. If one takes that away from another I feel some day they'll have to give answer for it. Jm 3:1

Imagine if someone believe that Genesis 15:5 or Matthew 19:28 was a promise to him, just like you believe that Mark 11:24 was to you, and he just "flat do and won't back down from it."

What would your response be?

 

[Bobber]

No, because people have a choice about responding to the Gospel - you may not believe that, but it's true.
Jesus invited people to follow; "Come to me all who labour ...", Matthew 11:28, "whoever believes in me ...." John 3:16 etc etc. He invited, didn't force,

No I'm not a Calvinist. I totally agree with you. Not sure why you thought maybe I was.

...the question "well why didn't God heal them if HE wanted it, and they clearly did?" becomes almost unanswerable. (Though people HAVE answered it, and blamed the sick person in some way.)

What I say may sound like a contradiction or an oxymoron.....but it is our business to know but it's not our business to know. It's not our business to get personal with any individual and tell them your reason for not being healed is this, that or the other. That's between them and God. We are however told to teach reasons why the Bible says healing may be hindered and not come. Some may charge me with well it's all the same thing. No it's not. It's totally different.

 

[Bobber]

Imagine if someone believe that Genesis 15:5 or Matthew 19:28 was a promise to him, just like you believe that Mark 11:24 was to you, and he just "flat do and won't back down from it."

What would your response be?

Well Jesus answered some questions with questions......so I ask you. Is there anything you won't back down from reconsiderng your position or is everything on the table for you? If one told you it's ok to do things contrary to the Bible do you say Oh, maybe....who am I to know! I don't want to look proud by looking like i've got anything figured out.

So look I'm fully convinced physical healing is a provision in the covenant along with sins being forgiven. Other's here can make their choice and by no means do I not believe others who don't agree with me aren't good, loving Christians.

 

[Bobber]

Just this year in April....I had retina detachment. I didn't know what it was. Waited a few days...big mistake.....you wait too long even a couple of days sometimes no hope. Well it was the weekend the optometrist saw me Monday. Ok they told me then I'm urgent. I've got to get down to a bigger city which reconnects it all.
Well we got to that city....they took me in immediately. Checked it over and gave me the scoop. Because it was so long they didn't promise me a good end result. They joined it back, gas bubble in my eye....I won' get into all that....but said come back in 5 days. For 5 days I fought the fight of faith.

Declared healing declarations BASED on God's word. Not just for few minutes either.....like around the clock, thanking God praising God for healing. 5 days later I go back to this city. OK let's check it all out. One eye they tell me OK read the chart. I read down 4 lines. OK now let's see about the other. The retina detachment eye. OK let's see what you can see. I read down 4 lines. She says, "Wow!" She said you just read down 4 lines with that eye" I asked is that a good sign?

She laughed. She said what do you mean a good sign? Bob she said.....there's two type of retina detachments we call them the good kind and the bad kind. You had the bad kind. We just don't usually see anybody come back with this kind and can come back seeing what you're seeing. Well we told them we prayed and believed God.

So....they send the results across the hall to another retina specialist. It's a whole team which do different things.....She looks at the computer of the results from the first person.....she stated to me you can really see that good? I said well yeah sure. But she said but Bob when you come in here you couldn't even see. So they were bewildered somewhat and amazed.

(Now there's a Part 2 to this story which I might share sometime in the future)
I trust and hope though that if some here don't believe scriptures like Is 53:4 isn't talking about healing for even today I sincerely long for you to reconsider your position. God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

So look I'm fully convinced physical healing is a provision in the covenant along with sins being forgiven. Other's here can make their choice and by no means do I not believe others who don't agree with me aren't good, loving Christians.

My point is that being fully convinced that the promise is given to you, does not make it necessary correct.

Just like you will probably roll your eyes at someone who is fully convinced that Genesis 15:5 is given to him, others are doing that to you.

 

[swordsman1]

Just this year in April....I had retina detachment. I didn't know what it was. Waited a few days...big mistake.....you wait too long even a couple of days sometimes no hope. Well it was the weekend the optometrist saw me Monday. Ok they told me then I'm urgent. I've got to get down to a bigger city which reconnects it all.
Well we got to that city....they took me in immediately. Checked it over and gave me the scoop. Because it was so long they didn't promise me a good end result. They joined it back, gas bubble in my eye....I won' get into all that....but said come back in 5 days. For 5 days I fought the fight of faith.

Declared healing declarations BASED on God's word. Not just for few minutes either.....like around the clock, thanking God praising God for healing. 5 days later I go back to this city. OK let's check it all out. One eye they tell me OK read the chart. I read down 4 lines. OK now let's see about the other. The retina detachment eye. OK let's see what you can see. I read down 4 lines. She says, "Wow!" She said you just read down 4 lines with that eye" I asked is that a good sign?

She laughed. She said what do you mean a good sign? Bob she said.....there's two type of retina detachments we call them the good kind and the bad kind. You had the bad kind. We just don't usually see anybody come back with this kind and can come back seeing what you're seeing. Well we told them we prayed and believed God.

So....they send the results across the hall to another retina specialist. It's a whole team which do different things.....She looks at the computer of the results from the first person.....she stated to me you can really see that good? I said well yeah sure. But she said but Bob when you come in here you couldn't even see. So they were bewildered somewhat and amazed.

(Now there's a Part 2 to this story which I might share sometime in the future)
I trust and hope though that if some here don't believe scriptures like Is 53:4 isn't talking about healing for even today I sincerely long for you to reconsider your position. God Bless!

What? I thought card-carrying WoF folk such as yourself did not need to seek medical attention as you have full faith that God alone will heal you? Kenneth Hagin must be turning in his grave!

Apparently only those with insufficient faith need to see a doctor....
Is it OK to see a doctor? | Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Still, I'm genuinely pleased it was God's will to heal you with medical help.. For thousands of others with the same level of faith as you, and no unconfessed sin, God chooses not to heal.

 

[Strong in Him]

But that has to do with context of a subject under discussion. They were looking in FAITH for the ultimate kingdom to come a place where God reigns. Same with us today when we think of the blessed hope.

The point is that they did not receive what was promised to them by God - in contrast to your statement, "a faith which believes that God answers speedily and stand fast in believing he has and does when you pray."
Abraham believed God's promise; so much so that God declared him to be righteous. But he did not "believe God answered speedily"; in fact he tried to hurry things along by going off and sleeping with Hagar. That resulted in him having a son - but Ismael was not the child of God's promise; Isaac was.

I'd say two things. First he does but like Daniel 10:12 you may have a period of waiting in the natural before you see it manifested.

So you believe that sometimes God's answer to our prayer is "wait"?
Good.

I think you know better that that actually should not have to be insisted upon. Let's put down the passage of Mk 11:24

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." Mk 11:24

Jesus said that to his disciples on an occasion that had nothing to do with healing.
Read Mark 1, where Jesus drove out an evil spirit, healed many and healed a man with leprosy, chapter 2 where he healed a man lowered through the roof, chapter 3 where, again, he healed many, chapter 5 where he restored a man with an evil spirit and raised a dead girl to life. How many of THEM were told by Jesus, "whatever you desire you must believe that you have it and you will have them"? Most of the time he didn't ask about faith at all. He drove out evil spirits; he didn't have a conversation with them or ask the possessed if they believed that they had already received deliverance.

Jesus basically has taught what we know of as the prayer of faith.

No.

So what' the heart of the matter really. Back to accepting or not accepting that healing is in the atonement or the work that Jesus did on the cross as a provision for one when they're saved. I said a provision I did not say everybody will see it manifested even though that always has been the perfect and best will of God.

So there are times when Christians pray for healing yet it is not always God's best and perfect will to heal them at that time?
In other words, God says "wait"; not receiving healing is not the fault/responsibility of the sick person?
I think we're getting there.

Now I will say this perfect and best doesn't always mean God thinks it's perfect and best in the most absolute sense but it was perfect and best generally for their life. I'll explain. One minister I knew who I had great confidence was very close to God was praying for an elderly person. They had a terminal affliction. When he began to pray God told him NO let the person come home. They're just tired of life itself (the natural life) and they have no better time than now to come.////

Firstly, the sick person WAS made completely well and whole - just not in this life.
Secondly, so God can sometimes say "no" in answer to pray because - no matter how much faith is being shown - God knows what's best for that person?
Good - we are getting there.

BUT healing as being for them in the covenant is.

In that case, the person was fully healed by going home to God, and the minister, who was close to God and a man of faith, was told "No" - God was not going to answer his prayer.
So the sick person did not receive healing through the covenant, but healing through death. However much faith was shown, however much prayer offered, God told the minister to let the person go home to God.

This is what I have been saying all along:
- we cannot put God in a box and insist he heals in one particular way only.
- God's way, and timing, are best; if he says "no" or "wait", he has the right to do so.
- if the sick person does not receive healing (and I've given several examples) it is possibly not because they, nor others, didn't have faith, or pray in the right way.

 

[Strong in Him]

So we looked at Mk 11:24 which I demonstrated there's no problem applying that to healing.

No, you've taken something which Jesus said to his disciples and decided to apply it to the area of healing as well.
Neither Jesus, nor his disciples, told people "believe that you have your healing and you will receive it."

Of course you'll never, ever, ever come to place of believing with ANY confidence to even consider believing you receive when you pray because you don't believe, and have chosen not to believe anything substantiates it. (that is when it comes to healing)

Nonsense.
I believe God answers prayer.
I believe that "wait" or "no" are answers.
I believe that he is Sovereign, and also love, and answers at the right time in the way that is right for the person concerned.
I believe that he may be answering my prayers for people in other countries and I will never know, or get to see the results, until I get to heaven.

But if you mean that I don't believe, as I used to, that faith means saying, "Lord I have prayed for healing - you WILL heal, and give me what I want RIGHT NOW", then you're absolutely right; I don't.
I have grown up since then and have faith in God's love, care, timing and his ability, and right, to do what is best.

Your statement sounds suspiciously like what I was old many years ago - "you won't be healed [from M.E] because you don't believe."
Well guess what - God didn't read that statement, or if he did, he took no notice of it.
I didn't believe in their doctrine - which was the same as yours - and God healed me anyway. That was 14 years ago. I still don't believe what I think you are saying - that we have to believe and claim our healing in faith before we receive it - and I remain healed from M.E.

I do. I just flat do and won't back down from it.

You have the right to believe what you like.
Just don't imply, or state, that others HAVE to believe this to receive healing; that if they remain sick it is somehow their fault.