Those who believe in healing, gifts etc

[Richard T]

I couldn't understand that verse for a long time and then one day I heard a different interpretation:

"I do not say that anyone pray for them" [those who commit sin on to death]

-in other words there are people beyond repentance, don't waste your time praying for them.

Yes, though I am thinking the isolation, from I Cor 5:11 might occur first, then kicked out and turned over to Satan.

I Cor 5:11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Once they are out of the church and all fellowship, it could very well be a catalyst for repentance. Some think they are still saved, others think their sin is unpardonable. I think it is the former,
What do you think?

 

[Richard T]

If you are, then what is your view,

has the Tribulation passed already?
has Christ returned for Israel,?
Are we now in the millennial kingdom?

I guess we are in agreement of the events, but perhaps not the timing? To me the tribulation is before us, Jesus will come back for Israel at the end of it, and then the millennial kingdom will take place.

 

[Richard T]

I am not claiming the law could save anyone.

I am saying, under the gospel of the kingdom, the Law continue to be required for Israel to enter their promised kingdom (Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 28:20).

I assume Israel is outside of God now, but that God will revert back to Israel during the tribulation. Any that are saved will basically be believers in Jesus, then he will come at the end of the tribulation. During the tribulation I assume they will be like Christians now, I never considered that they would continue in the law. How does that deviate from your beliefs?

 

[Guojing]

I guess we are in agreement of the events, but perhaps not the timing? To me the tribulation is before us, Jesus will come back for Israel at the end of it, and then the millennial kingdom will take place.

That means you agree that God had interrupted the 70 weeks timetable?

 

[Guojing]

I never considered that they would continue in the law.

If you hold that view, then what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 28:20 after he rose from the dead?

teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you

Jesus taught Israel to follow the Law (Matthew 5:19, Luke 10:25-28), so if everything means everything, the Law was always part of what Israel had to obey.

You cannot go to Paul because Paul was not saved yet, until Acts 8.

 

[Richard T]

That means you agree that God had interrupted the 70 weeks timetable?

Yes, 69 weeks, a pause which we are in now and one more week (seven years) to go whenever God decides to restart the clock. I am dispensationalist, with a rapture belief. I leave the door open though for another interpretation to come to pass.

 

[Richard T]

If you hold that view, then what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 28:20 after he rose from the dead?

teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you

Jesus taught Israel to follow the Law (Matthew 5:19, Luke 10:25-28), so if everything means everything, the Law was always part of what Israel had to obey.

You cannot go to Paul because Paul was not saved yet, until Acts 8.

I was just figuring that Jesus taught them to follow the law of love God and neighbor. In the years leading up to Jesus death the law was still in effect. It seems reasonable that Jesus was teaching the transition all along. I never considered that the Jews would revert back to the law. Instead, I thought some Jews would be converted to Jesus during the tribulation. Here is a more formal teaching that I think is correct. https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1121&context=pretrib_arch
i am not saying there will not be differences between the church now and the mostly Jewish believers during the tribulation. The tribulation saints likely do not have the authority of Jesus that he gave to the church. If they did then they could restrain Satan. I am not sure if the Holy Spirit reverts to coming upon them, versus living in them. So gifts, teaching, help and comfort of the Holy Spirit might be different? I am glad you make me think about it.

 

[Guojing]

In the years leading up to Jesus death the law was still in effect. It seems reasonable that Jesus was teaching the transition all along.

That cannot be reasonable, Matthew 28:20 was spoken by Christ after he risen.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, 69 weeks, a pause which we are in now and one more week (seven years) to go whenever God decides to restart the clock. I am dispensationalist, with a rapture belief. I leave the door open though for another interpretation to come to pass.

Interesting, cannot imagine you are a dispensationalist.

But if you claim you are one, since you believe that the gifts of healing are still for today, you are probably an Acts 2/classical dispy?

 

[Richard T]

That cannot be reasonable, Matthew 28:20 was spoken by Christ after he risen.

Why can't the things Jesus commanded be love God and neighbor? How can we discern what he meant?

 

[Guojing]

Why can't the things Jesus commanded be love God and neighbor? How can we discern what he meant?

In the first place, love your God and neighbor sums up the entire Law of Moses. (Matthew 22:36-40).

It is not "trying your best" to love God and neighbor, as most Christians nowadays interpret it as.

 

[Richard T]

Interesting, cannot imagine you are a dispensationalist.

But if you claim you are one, since you believe that the gifts of healing are still for today, you are probably an Acts 2/classical dispy?

Yes, I suppose the gift of the Holy Spirit started the church age. So the church is the pause in God's Jewish time clock, which will revert back to the Jews. What those Jews are exactly like post church age I never thought about too much, but the judgment of the last week is coming. One of the reasons I am pre-trib is that the church will be gone so God can concentrate on the Jews once again. That judgment seems only for them, not for the church. Though others criticize the church as weak in this possibility, I think that even pre-trib rapture believers will continue in the Lord no matter what end time events unfold. Hopefully everyone's faith is in Jesus not a particular end time scenario.

As to Acts 2, Jesus spoke about this. The gifts never have ceased, nor has the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Most of the early Pentecostal, Word of Faith pioneers were pre-trib rapture believers. Many now have some partial preterist orientation though.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, I suppose the gift of the Holy Spirit started the church age. So the church is the pause in God's Jewish time clock, which will revert back to the Jews. What those Jews are exactly like post church age I never thought about too much, but the judgment of the last week is coming. One of the reasons I am pre-trib is that the church will be gone so God can concentrate on the Jews once again. That judgment seems only for them, not for the church. Though others criticize the church as weak in this possibility, I think that even pre-trib rapture believers will continue in the Lord no matter what end time events unfold. Hopefully everyone's faith is in Jesus not a particular end time scenario.

As to Acts 2, Jesus spoke about this. The gifts never have ceased, nor has the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Most of the early Pentecostal, Word of Faith pioneers were pre-trib rapture believers. Many now have some partial preterist orientation though.

Yep guess it correctly.

I wouldn't consider Acts 2 dispy as dispy in the true sense, but to each his own.

 

[Richard T]

In the first place, love your God and neighbor sums up the entire Law of Moses. (Matthew 22:36-40).

It is not "trying your best" to love God and neighbor, as most Christians nowadays interpret it as.

Ok, and while John Wesley taught a Christian could reach a state of perfection, how do you see a Christian being able to walk fully in the love of god and neighbor? I admit that "trying" is not the same as resting. I rest knowing that Jesus fills up any deficiencies I have. I still try but not as a work. Any flaw in my thinking here?

 

[Guojing]

Ok, and while John Wesley taught a Christian could reach a state of perfection, how do you see a Christian being able to walk fully in the love of god and neighbor? I admit that "trying" is not the same as resting. I rest knowing that Jesus fills up any deficiencies I have. I still try but not as a work. Any flaw in my thinking here?

My point is, those 2 commandments do not apply to us today. No one can obey them.

If you are resting, that is because you correctly listened to Paul, that you are no longer under the Law (Romans 6:14).

 

[Richard T]

My point is, those 2 commandments do not apply to us today. No one can obey them.

If you are resting, that is because you correctly listened to Paul, that you are no longer under the Law (Romans 6:14).

Ok, good we have more to agree on and you certainly did help me see the two commandments differently.

 

[johansen]

Yes, though I am thinking the isolation, from I Cor 5:11 might occur first, then kicked out and turned over to Satan.

I Cor 5:11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Once they are out of the church and all fellowship, it could very well be a catalyst for repentance. Some think they are still saved, others think their sin is unpardonable. I think it is the former,
What do you think?

Paul is giving practical advice to a church in corinth.

John is giving spiritual advice

There is sin onto death, and we can waste our time praying for the condemned.

When Jesus said it is better for a man to drown than teach a child to sin.. its because there is no forgiveness for them and it would be better to die and go to judgement, than it would be to linger longer on the earth and sin more resulting in a worse judgement.

I'm using my real name on this account as a constant reminder not to speak of my own experience in these matters. But basically, i forgave the person who taught me to sin, and i think that she will in fact turn back to God at some point in the future, but i think that she is as close to the knife's edge of damnation as you can get with regard to certain matters.