I am trying to be a Pastor of a Baptist church, and have a problem with a doctrine

[acorn_777]

Once saved always saved.

Can someone give me Biblical support of this?

 

[sealacamp]

These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

1 John: 19

This may or may not support such doctrine. However it is clear that if someone is truly saved they will not depart from the Lord even if they wander away from time to time. Even in our misdirection the Lord will teach us and if we are truly a part of Him and saved by Him adopted by Him then we will remain with Him and His people, as this passage indicates.

Sealacamp

 

[DeaconDean]

Once saved always saved.

Can someone give me Biblical support of this?

Now, before we get into this doctrine, this is a controversal doctrine here, I want to ask you to which particular Baptist affiliation does your church belong to?

SBC?

ABC?

GBC?

Free Will?

Independant?

Missionary?

Arminian?

Calvinist?

For, depending on the association, that doctrine will cause strife for that church.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Lightkeeper55]

"Being confident of this very thing, that he who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

Phillippians 1:6

Be confident (assured, positive) of this very thing....

That he (who? answer God)

who hath begun a good work in you (when you received Christ as your Saviour)

WILL PERFORM IT (continually...not maybe or sproatically)

until the day of Jesus Christ (when Jesus Christ returns to call his children home in the rapture)

 

[DD2008]

http://www.monergism.com/perseverance_of_the_saints_by.php

 

[acorn_777]

Now, before we get into this doctrine, this is a controversal doctrine here, I want to ask you to which particular Baptist affiliation does your church belong to?

Southern Baptist

 

[acorn_777]

http://www.monergism.com/perseverance_of_the_saints_by.php

I understand. I guess I should have suggested some thoughts, as to why I feel differently.

Most of the references given, I know already. My thing is this. If we accept Jesus, are baptized, receive the Holy Spirit through Jesus; what happens if someone goes astray.

What about this scripture?


Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(KJV)

 

[DeaconDean]

Southern Baptist

Let me add this, this is an article I wrote a few years back:

Once Saved, Always Saved

But is it Biblical?​

Not very many doctrines receive as much debate as this one does. Many adhere to it, others do not. There are a few others that will provoke debates even among long time Christians. The Rapture, Millennialism (pre, post, and al) just to mane a few. As for me, I believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved. I was taught this from an early age in church. And for many years I just accepted it as true. You know, what you learn at an early age tends to stick with you through life. I started seminary school and a whole new world opened up to me. I’ve got a thirst for knowledge that seems to be unquenchable. I began to research, to investigate, to seek enlightenment, regarding church doctrines and what we come to accept and believe. I have read some of the early church doctrines and early versions of Systematic Theology. I wanted to why we believe what we believe. I have studied such authors as: John Gill’s “Body of Practical Divinity,” The Complete Works of Jonathan Edwards, “Theology Proper” by Charles Hodge, “Institutes of Christian Religion” by John Calvin, “Abstract of Systematic Theology” by James Petigru Boyce, “Manual of Theology” by John L. Dagg, “Introduction to Christian Doctrine” by Millard Erickson, The Complete works of Arthur W. Pink. And just to balance things out, I’ve even read Charles Finney's 1851 Lectures on Systematic Theology, and the Theology of Karl Barth, along with The Works of James Arminius.

You see, I felt a need to see how theology has developed from the earliest days, up to the present time. I have even studied a lot of Augustine’s writings. While I do not agree with all of Augustine’s writings, I have been able to pick bits and pieces of useful information from him, he does have his good points. I have studied some of the Confessions of Faith, and in my humble opinion, The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 to 1649 and The Baptist Faith and Message of 1963 are the best ones. But that’s neither here nor there. Before I get into this subject, I wanted to see how this idea developed. So I went and did research and some serious studying on the subject, I wanted to make sure that what I propose is right and biblical. I studied a lot of scripture while doing this, and decided on one single passage which I believe supports my position.

Before we dive in, I feel you should know at least some other views on this subject and their position:

Classic Arminianism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; The believer who loses his faith is damned.

Antinomianism: One need not persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those who lose their faith are saved because they once believed.; The believer who loses his faith is saved.

Classic Calvinism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God’s gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

Now lets look at the above table for just a minute. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But where both of these views are wrong, is in assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).​

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to do great things for the Lord! It is my opinion that the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

One argument against this used by the Arminians is: “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” Eze. 18:24. John Gill gives this answer:

“Such a sense of the words is contrary to the scope and design of the whole chapter, which not at all concerns the perseverance or apostasy of saints, and neither their salvation nor damnation; but the sole view of it is to vindicate the justice of God, from a charge of punishing the Jews, not for their own sins, but the sins of their fathers, and of injustice and inequality in his providential dealings with them, and has nothing to do with the spiritual and eternal affairs of men.”1

The whole context wholly and solely regards the house of Israel, and the land of Israel, and the conduct of the people of Israel in it. In applying that to the saints in particular, which relates to the Jewish church and nation only, as distinguishable from all other people, and so stands self-condemned. Millions of instances of this kind will never enervate the doctrine of the saints perseverance; let it be proved if it can, that any one that has been made righteous by the obedience of Christ, and has been truly and inwardly sanctified by the Spirit and grace of God, ever so fell away, as everlastingly to perish; let this be proved and we have done: As for a man’s own righteousness and outward acts of holiness, we allow a man may turn from them and he lost, but not from the righteousness of Christ, which is everlasting, nor from an inward principle of grace and holiness, which ever abides.

Another argument is: "one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God, as to perish everlastingly." In proof of which is produced, 1 Timothy 1:19, 20, holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck, of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander. It does not appear that these men ever had their hearts purified by faith; this should be first proved, before they are produced as instances of the apostasy of real saints; the contrary appears in their characters; they were ungodly men, and were never otherwise for any thing that is said of them; and after their profession of religion, they increased and proceeded to more ungodliness; they were vain-babblers, opposers of the doctrines of the gospel, and blasphemers of it, and were never upon the foundation that stands sure, or were known by the Lord as his, (see 1 Tim 1:20 and 2 Tim. 2:16, 19; 4:14, 15).2

Arthur W. Pink says: “This terrible sin is not committed by a mere professor, for he has nothing to fall away from, save an empty name.”3

Nor is it clear from the text, that they ever had a good conscience, but rather that they never had one; putting it away does not necessarily suppose they had it, but rather that they had it not, they rejecting it with dislike; as the Jews who never had the gospel are said to put it away; when they contradicted, blasphemed and rejected it, the apostle says, ye put it from you, απωθεισθε,the same word that is here used; ye rejected it, cast it from you, and would not receive it, so here; had these persons ever had a good conscience, it would rather have been said, which some having put out of them; but they never had it; when it was proposed to them, as the Christian religion proposes that a man should exercise a good conscience, they disliked it, and put it away, and would not attend to it, and chose rather to drop the faith they professed, as being contrary to their evil consciences and practices; besides, persons may have a good conscience in some sense, and as it is shews itself by an external behavior among men, which does not arise from an heart purified by faith; the apostle had such an one before he had faith in Christ, Acts23:1. though it does not seem as if these men had ever such an one.

The faith they made shipwreck of, is not the grace of faith, which it does not appear they ever had, but the doctrine of faith, the Gospel; περι τηv πιστεωv , concerning the faith, is a phrase that is never used but of the doctrine of faith, see Acts. 24:24; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 3:8. This is the faith they made shipwreck of, denied and destroyed, or contradicted and blasphemed, as it is explained in the next verse; and the particular doctrine of faith they made shipwreck of. Men may profess the doctrine of faith and fall from it; but this is no instance of a man’s having true faith which purifies the heart, and falling from God so as to perish.

Another objection is: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6) John Gill says:

“There is nothing in the characters of these persons which shew them to be true believers;there is nothing said of their believing in Christ, or that necessarily implies it; there is nothing said that is peculiar to true believers; they are not said to be regenerated by the Spirit of God, called by the grace of God, or sanctified, or justified, or adopted, or heirs of God, and meet for the inheritance, or sealed by the Holy Ghost, or any thing of that kind.”4

The following section is taken from Arthur W. Pink’s Exposition of Hebrews:

“Apostasy from Christ was a step more easy and natural to a Jewish than to a Gentile believer, because the way was always open and inviting them, as men, to return to those associations which once carried with them the outward sanctification of Jehovah’s name, and which only the power of grace had enabled them to renounce. When heavenly realities became inoperative in their souls, the visible image was before them still, and here was the danger of their giving it the homage of their souls. If there were not an habitual exercise of their spiritual senses, the power of discernment could not remain: they would call evil good, and good evil. The ignorance which springs from spiritual neglect begins its own punishment of apathetic dullness on the once clear mind, and robs the spirit of its power to detect the wily methods of the Devil. It is in the presence of God alone that the Christian can exert his spiritual energies with effect. Abiding in Christ, maintains us in that presence. A more unhappy error cannot befall a believer than to separate, in the habit of his mind, acquired knowledge from the living Christ. Faith dies at once when separated from its object. Knowledge indeed is precious, but the knowledge of God is a progressive thing (Col. 1:10), whose end is not obtained this side of the glory (1 Cor. 8:2).”5

Continued...

 

[DeaconDean]

A clear and growing faith, in heavenly things was needed to preserve Jewish Christians from relapse. To return to Judaism was to give up Christ, who had left their house ‘desolate’ (Matthew 23:38). It should be pointed out, however, that it is just as easy, and the attraction is just as real, for a Gentile Christian to return to that world out of which the Lord has called him, as it was for a Jewish Christian to go back again to Judaism.

In verse 4, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened" the apostle continues the digression which he began at Hebrews 5:11. The parenthesis has two divisions: the first, Hebrews 5:11-14 is reprehensible; the second, Hebrews 6:1-20 is hortatory. In chapter 6 he exhorts the Hebrews unto two duties: to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-11); to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is proposed in verses 1,2 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostasy (verses 4-6). The opening "For" of verse 4 intimates the close connection of our present passage with that which immediately precedes. It draws a conclusion from what the apostle had been saying in Hebrews 5:11-14. It amplifies the "if" in verse 3. It points a most solemn warning against their continuance in their present sloth.

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Sophir)

Now I don’t believe that a true believer can fall into apostasy either. The stress is on “true believers.” And the people spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6 were not true believers.

First, the Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates.

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "Itis as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "ageto come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted",or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin",this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.
By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Continued...

 

[DeaconDean]

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Now to the passage in question.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.

Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.

This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).

If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.

The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.

1 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

2 Ibid

3 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

4 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

5 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy


Hope this explains some things.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

1. Nothing can separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus your Lord.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Neither death nor anything that happens after death, or anything that happens while you're living can separate you from God's love. If there were no other verse in the Bible that deals with eternal security, this one covers the base.


2. When you are saved, you are made perfect forever.

For by one offering He [Jesus] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)

When Jesus died on the cross, He saved you forever. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sin forever. If you ever lost your salvation, in order for you to be saved again, Jesus would have to die again. By one offering He has perfected forever those who were sanctified.


3. Our Lord always finishes what He begins.

Being confident of this very thing, that He [God] which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

Let me tell you what the Holy Spirit of God does for your salvation. First, He convicted you of sin.

Second, He converted you. And the Convictor and the Converter is also the Completer. If God fails to finish what He's begun God has failed and He cannot fail.


4. You are predestined to be like Jesus.

For whom He [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

God saw you before this world was put in space. He saw you repent of your sin and ask Jesus to save you. And when God saw that, not only did He foreknow it, but also He predestinated it. If it is settled in eternity how can it be undone in time?


5. You are in Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

You are in Christ just like Noah was in the ark. The ark was a picture of Jesus and when Noah went into that ark God shut the door. Noah may have fallen down a lot of times in that ark, but he never fell out of it. Your security is not in a place, it is in a Person and His name is Jesus. And if you're in Jesus, you're secure and if you're not in Jesus you're not secure.


6. You already have eternal life.

Heareth My word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Everlasting life is not something you get when you die. Everlasting life is something you get when you receive Jesus. If I have everlasting life, when can it end? Suppose I had it 10 years and it ended. Did I have everlasting life? No, I had a 10-year life. Whatever you have, if you ever lose it, whatever it was it wasn't everlasting.


7. The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)

Jesus also prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn't answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).

 

[JacobHall86]

The question is not if a Christian can lose his salvation, its better asked, can Jesus lose a Christian.

 

[Phileoeklogos]

I understand. I guess I should have suggested some thoughts, as to why I feel differently.

Most of the references given, I know already. My thing is this. If we accept Jesus, are baptized, receive the Holy Spirit through Jesus; what happens if someone goes astray.

What about this scripture?


Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(KJV)

Jesus said He never knew them, how did He not know them, was He unaware of them, how in His perfect knowledge did He not know them?


Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?


All thru the Bible, God's "knowing" of people shows His relationship with them, not just having knowledge of them, Jesus never knew them, they were never His sheep, just like these folks,


Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

So not to get off topic, but a few questions for you,

Have you been a member of a SBC or other Baptist church or do you come from some other background?

Have you pastored a church before?

If not, has any congregation/elders/pastors, recognized a pastoral calling on you, and what has you preparation for that call been?

Not meaning to be too nosy, but if you are seeking to pastor, you will hear these questions again

 

[kcs9]

John Deere said it all. I'm also having trouble with this because I am joining a church which believes (to my knowledge) in a loss of salvation. I just can't see at all how this lines up with Scripture and experience.

I think too many people de-spiritualize the entire born again experience. It's not a mere mental acceptance and recognition of truth, it is an impartation of Life through faith. A new man is born, a new creature, and I think it cheapens the experience to believe that our mistakes can counteract God's Life. If we are truely born again, then how can we by our own power undue our birth that was performed by the Holy Spirit? Where can you possibly draw the line to determine at what exact juncture is salvation lost? What can possibly grieve the Holy Sprit so much as to force it to depart from our inner man, if that is possible?

It also seems to demean Christ's work on the cross. He suffered for ALL of our sins. Past, present, and future. We died with Him, we were raised with Him. We are forgiven for it all, we are a new permanent creation. His life, his Spirit, is apart of us in a deeper and more everlasting way than even our own bodies.

Now the only question I have regarding this is the "blaspheming against the Holy Spirit" found in Matthew 12:24. In your opinion, is this referring to unbelievers or believers as well? I admit that when I was in a very dark place I told God that I openly rejected His Holy Spirit. I had been saved for some time up to this point, and was continually trying to stay away from sin and follow Him, but the whole process was making me miserable. I hated Him and cursed Him daily, but at the same time it was in a way that you do when you are a child and are angry at your parents for chastising you. No matter how much my mind and heart hated Him, there was something inside beyond my core that loved Him and could never leave Him. So even though I emotionally rejected the Holy Spirit, I discovered that my true self, my true inner man united with Christ, could never do so.

So I guess my opinion is that if there were any way to lose your salvation, that blaspheming against the Holy Spirit would be the only way. There are many differing views as to what exactly Matthew meant, but either way I believe if you are truely born again that you would be unable to commit the sin anyway.

 

[Justaman0000]

Not everyone who asks the Lord into their heart is sincere, and so they were never really saved in the first place. But it is possible to stray away from faith. He may call you back all your life but if you never repent then you will die in sin. It is not those who hear the word that are saved, but those who hear the word and obey it. You must stay faithful to the end of your life, while keeping with repentance. It is not just obeying laws and trying not to sin. It is a relationship with the Lord. Faith is not just believeing God exists and that Jesus died and rose again. It is putting your trust in him and obeying his word. And love binds these all together, for how can you submit and trust in him if you don't love him.You must have all these elements. Here's some scripture I hope this helps. Let His spirit tell you what truth is.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:45-51
Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:14-30
14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'
21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'
23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

 

[fireman1173005]

Isaiah 43:13 "[SIZE=+0]Yes, and from ancient days I am he. [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]No one can deliver out of my hand. [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]When I act, who can reverse it?"

[/SIZE] [FONT=&quot]John 6:37-39 [/FONT][SIZE=+0]"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. [/SIZE]38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39[SIZE=+0] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

[/SIZE] [FONT=&quot]John 10:27-29[/FONT] [SIZE=+0]'My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [/SIZE]28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29[SIZE=+0] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, [/SIZE]39[SIZE=+0] neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[/SIZE] [FONT=&quot]1 John 5:18[/FONT] "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."

 

[kcs9]

Not everyone who asks the Lord into their heart is sincere, and so they were never really saved in the first place. But it is possible to stray away from faith. He may call you back all your life but if you never repent then you will die in sin

The first sentence is true, the second I can't agree with. The logic just doesn't add up. If that's true than it must be true that at the moment we die we must either be already perfected in Christ or consciously aware and repentant of every single sin we may have been harboring in our hearts at that exact moment. Say someone who is saved and trying to follow the Lord slips one morning and gets in a fight with his wife. He drives to work all worked up and harboring anger in his heart. All of a sudden he gets in a severe accident and dies. Is he going to Hell because he was "living in sin" at the moment he died?

I know it's not exactly the same as what you were talking about, but it's very similar in principle. We are never going to perfect, we are always going to make mistakes. Every one's faith is tested at some point and hardly anybody passes the test with flying colors. If you happen to die in the middle of the test are you going to Hell? People walk away, God doesn't.

I believe if you are truely born again and you stray away from the faith, you will be going against the grain and will most likely be miserable anyway. You will either repent in this life or the next, and either way forgiveness was already granted the day you received Christ.

 

[Lightkeeper55]

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"

Hebrews 6: 4-6


The significant verse here is verse 6. Simply put...IF you could fall away and lose your salvation, you would have to crucify Christ again in order to gain salvation again. In addition, it would make the sacrifice Christ made on the cross meaningless, putting Him to shame.

Since we cannot crucify Christ again, (and wouldn't want to), the work He accomplished on Calvary was for all time, all sins, all people and He will not let His children go.

Salvation is a three part plan:

Past: We are saved from the Penalty from sin when we accepted Jesus into our hearts and asked for forgiveness.

Present: We are being saved from the POWER of sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us. (Romans 6:14 -- "For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law but under grace)

Future: We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin when Jesus returns in the clouds and calls His children home.

You can't lose your salvation

 

[eldermike]

I gave up with the scripture debate on this issue, God gave us a brain so I just use it. Other than that I tell em to read Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

The real issue is the bible can't support saved, lost, and then saved again. If you leave the faith for part of one second you are eternally lost, if it were possible. Hense, the only possible alternative to OSAS is everyone is lost. So, since that's not right, what's left?

The bible says it's impossible to be re-enlightened. That either means you can't be lost, or everyone is lost........which do you think? Unless someone can declare they have never lost faith for even a milli-second, which everyone has.
We will be known by our fruit.........so there must not be a single bad fruit, one bad fruit, game over, lost forever.

The last thing you have to deal with is the pride. What good quality would a man have inside him that allowed him to keep the faith and another man did not. What defect did the one that lost faith have? When you find this quality it will be flesh, it's pride, and not God.

Either God keeps us saved or we are all lost, there is no other possible biblical view.
Fath is a gift. Grace is unearned or it's something else. Saved by faith through Grace = The gift of eternal salvation. Or, it was not a gift and Grace is not Grace.

 

[DeaconDean]

I gave up with the scripture debate on this issue, God gave us a brain so I just use it. Other than that I tell em to read Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

The real issue is the bible can't support saved, lost, and then saved again. If you leave the faith for part of one second you are eternally lost, if it were possible. Hense, the only possible alternative to OSAS is everyone is lost. So, since that's not right, what's left?

The bible says it's impossible to be re-enlightened. That either means you can't be lost, or everyone is lost........which do you think? Unless someone can declare they have never lost faith for even a milli-second, which everyone has.
We will be known by our fruit.........so there must not be a single bad fruit, one bad fruit, game over, lost forever.

The last thing you have to deal with is the pride. What good quality would a man have inside him that allowed him to keep the faith and another man did not. What defect did the one that lost faith have? When you find this quality it will be flesh, it's pride, and not God.

Either God keeps us saved or we are all lost, there is no other possible biblical view.
Fath is a gift. Grace is unearned or it's something else. Saved by faith through Grace = The gift of eternal salvation. Or, it was not a gift and Grace is not Grace.

Amen brother!

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.