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Well, I too was in an SBC (about 25 years ago) and they were, oh, so into their OSAS doctrine. They just loved it. It was mentioned probably every other service (or so it seemed). And when they discussed scripture, oh, they just loved their "eternal security" passages. The pastor would spend lots of time discussing the virtues of these passages. But then there were those "other" passages: the one which they avoided like the plague; the ones they rushed through as if to avoid an embarrassing entanglement, or contrived elaborate explanations for. At least you, acorn_777, seem to recognize that there are these two seemingly opposing sets of passages. Your quest now, if you accept it, is to reconcile these two apparently contradictory sets of passages. As someone suggested, read Stanleys book, and then take my advice and read Shanks. Stanley does little more than make emotional appeals. Shank, on the other hand, makes an honest effort to handle both sets in a scholarly and biblical fashion, which is far, far, more than Stanley ever dreamt of doing.
And if you openly reject this doctrine, they will for sure openly reject you as a pastor.
I would say that such "support" would not be accurate. Perhaps you need to also ask of those who believe otherwise.
1. Jn 10:28-29; Php 1:6; 2Ti 2:19; 1Jn 2:19.
- Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by the Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit to immortality)1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon: notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded, and obscured from them,2 yet it is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of Life from all eternity.3
- This perseverance of the saints, depends not upon their own free will but upon the immutability of the decree of election,4 flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him,5 the oath of God,6 the abiding of His Spirit, and the seed of God wthin them,7 and the nature of the covenant of grace;8 from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
- And though they may, through the temptation of Satan, and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein;9 whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance, and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end.14
2. Ps 89:31-32; 1Co 11:32.
3. Mal 3:6.
4. Ro 8:30; 9:11,16.
5. Ro 5:9-10; Jn 14:19.
6. Heb 6:17-18.
7. 1Jn 3:9.
8. Jer 32:40.
9. Mt 26:70,72,74.
10. Isa 64:5,9; Eph 4:30.
11. Ps 51:10,12.
12. Ps 32:3-4.
13. 2Sa 12:14.
14. Lk 22:32,61-62.
Of the Perseverance of Saints We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end (58); that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors (59); that a special Providence watches over their welfare (60); and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (61).
58. John 8:31; 1 John 2:27-28; 3:9; 5:18
59. 1 John 2:19; John 13:18; Matt. 13:20-21; John 6:66-69; Job 17:9
60. Rom. 8:28; Matt. 6:30-33; Jer. 32:40; Psa. 121:3; 91:11-12
61. Phil. 1:6; 2:12-13; Jude 24-25; Heb. 1:14; 2 Kings 6:16; Heb. 13:5; 1 John 4:4
You sir, seem awfully down on the SBC.
That is what our historic Baptist confessions teach. That is what we believe the Bible teaches. And that is the standard for this room.
God Bless
Till all are one.
There are a good number of godly men and women who have trouble with this doctrine as well.Once saved always saved.
Can someone give me Biblical support of this?
I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.
eternal life is not a temporary condition based on the ability of man.
Your words betray you. You have not given me all due respect since you've presumed to know what I hold regarding the topic, and have attacked a strawman.With all due respect brother, then I guess we are not kept by the power of God unto salvation? (cf. 1 Pet. 1:5)
Your words betray you. You have not given me all due respect since you've presumed to know what I hold regarding the topic, and have attacked a strawman.
I expect more from you, DeaconDean
I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.
You have not given me all due respect since you've presumed to know what I hold regarding the topic,
I still believe we can be lost in this world, yet I see the OSAS as God never letting His people go without seeking after them. Is that acceptable in SBC OSAS?
Not so brother, I took your own words.
With all due respect brother, then I guess we are not kept by the power of God unto salvation? (cf. 1 Pet. 1:5)
With all due respect, I guess Jesus will not go out and find that 100th lamb that strayed from the flock? (cf. Mt. 18:12-13)
With all due respect brother, if you are born into the family of God, my bible tells me that I am a child of the king, an royal heir, a son of the Almighty, then one can become unborn? (cf. Rom. 8:16)
With all due respect, if Jesus turns us over to the Fathers care, and scripture tells us that no man (not even ourselves) can take us out of the Fathers hand, then we must asume that man is more powerful than God, because we can take ourselves out of His hand? (cf. Jn. 10:27-29)
I have not contradicted myself.You say one thing in one post, then say something else in another.
This appears, to me, to be an implied insult.What do scriptures say about that type of person?
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." -Jas. 1:8 (KJV)
This sounds as if you cannot respect someone with whom you disagree. I hope that isn't what you really think.I tend to agree with the points DeaconDean has been making. Furthermore its quite possible that he is giving you all of the respect that you deserve. Sadly you may anticipate more than you deserve.
Those are neither my words nor my beliefs...You have, indeed, shown me disrespect.
I don't see it as the plain teaching of Scripture, though.
Those are neither my words nor my beliefs.
σφραγίζω,v {sfrag-id'-zo}
[SIZE=-1]1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal 1a) for security: from Satan 1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret 1c) in order to mark a person or a thing 1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp 1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God 1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing 1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt 1d1a) of a written document 1d1b) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be [/SIZE]
You sir, seem awfully down on the SBC.
I, however, stick to what Baptists have believed for over two centuries in the United States:
...
That is what our historic Baptist confessions teach. That is what we believe the Bible teaches. And that is the standard for this room.
So, why did you just interject your stance if you think it shouldn't be named here?I find all the above most fascinating, but wonder why folk have to spend so much time debating with each other OSAS. You either believe it - hence Calvinism, or you don't - hence Arminianism.
OSAS is a Calvinistic doctrine, first taught by Calvin (see Jefferson Davis in an article published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (JD is a Calvinist himself). Also, look at Hendrickson Publishers A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More Than 700 Topics Discussed By The Early Church Fathers. Under the topic heading of SALVATION we find the question "Can those who are saved ever be lost?" Following several Scripture references there are five pages of quotes from the writings of early Christian leaders, which give evidence that the early church did not believe in OSAS. Rather, they taught that it was possible for a genuine believer to reject God and wind up eternally separated from God. (pp. 586-591.
Hoever, would it not be better if doctrinal arguments like this one which - lets face it - will never find agreement, were put on the back shelf, and rather we got out of our study's and shared the Good News with those who need it?
SalvoPeter
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