I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

So you know that verse that says "God will give them over to a strong delusion" (paraphrase)? Well, I think I am getting to be at cross purposes with God, trying to do what He has made next to impossible.

The disciples were put out, saying "if it is that hard for the rich to be saved, how can any of us be saved?"

Jesus said "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

The point for me is that if someone is partially saved, it is better (not to argue, not to contest, not to repine) to refigure - in other words, actually stop expecting people will look to Jesus.

This is hard. I factor Jesus into everything I do, by faith; to just refigure - for example to take the Holy Spirit as my example - means forcing my faith to take a back seat. I'm not convinced this is going to save anyone, but I suppose in principle it is what Jesus found Himself having to do, when He was too weak to carry His Cross, for example. What is hard for me, is that I am not yet at the point where I can't carry my cross: I can talk, I can reason, I can justify - none of these things are not common to Man (but I suppose that is the point, they are common, not holy).

The thing is I just can't bring myself to believe, I will get to Heaven and God will say "Evolution was only partially relevant over time, the rest was Jesus" - I mean that is just not how God works. We've been through a world war over this, right? The idea that man completes himself, is a disaster - it makes you a friend of the Devil, without the meaning to uphold the eventuation of the Spirit. I think that is really the point: I am expecting to be equal with God as regards "Evolution", but I need first to yield to the Holy Spirit.

This is what Jesus did in His time, that is how He came to realize He had a cross, He yielded to the Holy Spirit. I think the thing is that if you successively submit to the Holy Spirit, the way an Evolutionist would begin to, you actually get much more than a cross: you get the entire faith of the entire Church, as regards the rapture. Maybe that is too hard to take on at once, I don't know, but it feels like the only thing that makes sense at this point. If we all consistently take on the Holy Spirit as a body, Evolution ceases to entangle even a little.

The Devil then, needs to take a lead from us, we need to be using our faith in order to make the way ahead for him - not that we give place to the Devil, but that we make a way of escape for him, that he not turn on us and bite us. If we did that collectively, people would cease to need a defence in Evolution, at the expectation that denial by it would provide them with a way of escape. Of course, then refiguring Jesus would be easy and light, but with a tinge of sadness, that men in the end could not find peace with Jesus without killing His Spirit in the process. I think that is a crisis that is still coming - despite all I have said.

But God has hope and we should rest in Him.

 

[trophy33]

What exactly do you fear about evolution, regarding your Christian faith?

 

[MariaJLM]

The Bible doesn't mention "evolutionists" anywhere. This is quite the mental gymnastics you have going on.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hi there,

So you know that verse that says "God will give them over to a strong delusion" (paraphrase)? Well, I think I am getting to be at cross purposes with God, trying to do what He has made next to impossible.

The disciples were put out, saying "if it is that hard for the rich to be saved, how can any of us be saved?"

Jesus said "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"

The point for me is that if someone is partially saved, it is better (not to argue, not to contest, not to repine) to refigure - in other words, actually stop expecting people will look to Jesus.

How do you know, or how will you ever know, if someone is "partially saved"?

This is hard. I factor Jesus into everything I do, by faith; to just refigure - for example to take the Holy Spirit as my example - means forcing my faith to take a back seat.

???
Believing in the Holy Spirit and accepting him into our lives is a big part of our faith; it is the Spirit who convicts us of our sin, leads us to Jesus and causes us to be born again.

I'm not convinced this is going to save anyone, but I suppose in principle it is what Jesus found Himself having to do, when He was too weak to carry His Cross, for example. What is hard for me, is that I am not yet at the point where I can't carry my cross:

Jesus told us TO carry our cross - daily.
You are not carrying a literal, heavy, cross, nor are you weak after having been beaten by the Romans.

The thing is I just can't bring myself to believe, I will get to Heaven and God will say "Evolution was only partially relevant over time, the rest was Jesus" - I mean that is just not how God works. We've been through a world war over this, right?

I don't believe that either of the world wars were caused by a difference of opinion over evolution.
There are scientists who are Christians who believe in evolution; doesn't stop them believing in jesus.

The idea that man completes himself, is a disaster -

What does that mean?

I think that is really the point: I am expecting to be equal with God as regards "Evolution",

None of us can be equal to God, so there's no point trying.

I think the thing is that if you successively submit to the Holy Spirit, the way an Evolutionist would begin to, you actually get much more than a cross: you get the entire faith of the entire Church, as regards the rapture.

Whether or not a person believes in evolution has nothing to do with whether or not they become Christians and receive the Holy Spirit.
And I don't get where "the rapture" - if there is such a thing - comes into this.

If we all consistently take on the Holy Spirit as a body, Evolution ceases to entangle even a little.

We are born again by the Spirit, John 3:3, are told to walk in the Spirit and live in the Spirit. We cannot say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and it is the Holy Spirit who interprets God's word to us, and intercedes for us.
Receiving the Spirit and allowing him to live in us has nothing to do with evolution.

The Devil then, needs to take a lead from us, we need to be using our faith in order to make the way ahead for him - not that we give place to the Devil, but that we make a way of escape for him, that he not turn on us and bite us.

The devil has been defeated on the cross.
We are told to resist him, 1 Peter 5:9, put on spiritual armour to protect ourselves from him, Ephesians 6 and pray that we will be kept safe from him.
Nowhere are we told to "make a way ahead for him".

If we did that collectively, people would cease to need a defence in Evolution, at the expectation that denial by it would provide them with a way of escape.

Evolution has nothing to do with our Christian faith.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Since your goal is to save people, don't worry about evolution.

People make decisions emotionally and then justify them logically. That is human nature. Some use evolution as an excuse not to believe. If you could prove that evolution was wrong, they would switch to another excuse, such as "what about all the evil Christians do?" or "was Mary really a virgin?" etc.

Instead, ask God to give you insight into what matters to their heart. When you can answer the silent cry of their heart, they will be ready to receive the truth of the Gospel.

 

[MariaJLM]

Since your goal is to save people, don't worry about evolution.

People make decisions emotionally and then justify them logically. That is human nature. Some use evolution as an excuse not to believe. If you could prove that evolution was wrong, they would switch to another excuse, such as "what about all the evil Christians do?" or "was Mary really a virgin?" etc.

Instead, ask God to give you insight into what matters to their heart. When you can answer the silent cry of their heart, they will be ready to receive the truth of the Gospel.

Christianity and evolution are not mutually exclusive either. I'm a Christian, but accept evolution as a scientific fact.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Christianity and evolution are not mutually exclusive either. I'm a Christian, but accept evolution as a scientific fact.

Fine with me. However, I think that if evolution was a scientific fact, then it would be measurable. So far there are no accepted units of evolution. Evolution currently is just a faith.

 

[timewerx]

Genetic scientists are collecting mounting evidence that evolution did not come on its own.

However, creationists may not like this evidence either.

The evidence concerns about a global viral infection via a virus that may have come from outer space over a period of time spanning many millions of years.

Does this prove God?? Maybe not, however, this evidence may actually provide evidence for the accounts in the Book of Enoch - when the "watchers" defiled all the creatures of the Earth, changing them into something more malevolent or inferior.

Additionally, this global pandemic may have also resulted to the mammalian mutation of many reptiles which may have included the human lineage.

Mind Blown yet??

Eve (or both Adam and Eve) may have been originally reptilian/avian... The root of Eve's name in Hebrew is serpent.

These genetic scientists deduced that our distant mammalian (or possibly reptilian) ancestors did not have a uterus and laid eggs instead, duh!

This ancient global pandemic mutated our ancestors and gave them uterus (which also dramatically increased pain of childbirth - Genesis 3:16)

It came from outer space and turned us into something worse! Ironically, primates may not be our origin ancestors but possibly reptiles!

The curse of the fall may have mutated humanity into our current state -- worse than the original!

 

[trophy33]

Genetic scientists are collecting mounting evidence that evolution did not come on its own.

However, creationists may not like this evidence either.

The evidence concerns about a global viral infection via a virus that may have come from outer space over a period of time spanning many millions of years.

Does this prove God?? Maybe not, however, this evidence may actually provide evidence for the accounts in the Book of Enoch - when the "watchers" defiled all the creatures of the Earth, changing them into something more malevolent or inferior.

Additionally, this global pandemic may have also resulted to the mammalian mutation of many reptiles which may have included the human lineage.

Mind Blown yet??

Eve (or both Adam and Eve) may have been originally reptilian/avian... The root of Eve's name in Hebrew is serpent.

These genetic scientists deduced that our distant mammalian (or possibly reptilian) ancestors did not have a uterus and laid eggs instead, duh!

This ancient global pandemic mutated our ancestors and gave them uterus (which also dramatically increased pain of childbirth - Genesis 3:16)

It came from outer space and turned us into something worse! Ironically, primates may not be our origin ancestors but possibly reptiles!

The curse of the fall may have mutated humanity into our current state -- worse than the original!

Do you like sci-fi?

 

[timewerx]

Do you like sci-fi?

Did you wonder why Eve's Hebrew name derived from "serpent"?

Why her childbirth was painless before the curse? She lay eggs perhaps like a serpent?

Viruses are responsible for major mutations punctuating certain periods on Earth. All you need to do is google it.

Science may explain virus....But cannot explain how it arrived to Earth in large quantities covering the whole Earth. Ever thought that it may be God who deployed those virus to Earth?

 

[trophy33]

Did you wonder why Eve's Hebrew name derived from "serpent"?

Eve means "life" and the context of her naming is clear:
"Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living." G 3:20

Why her childbirth was painless before the curse? She lay eggs perhaps like a serpent?

no, she did not lay eggs, she simply did not have any children.

Viruses are responsible for major mutations punctuating certain periods on Earth. All you need to do is google it.

Well, it will not make you lay eggs

 

[The Barbarian]

Fine with me. However, I think that if evolution was a scientific fact, then it would be measurable.

Yep. The discipline is called "population gentics." We normally measure it in information. Would you like me to show you a simple example?

So far there are no accepted units of evolution.

Wrong. Want to test your faith on this idea?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Yep. The discipline is called "population gentics." We normally measure it in information. Would you like me to show you a simple example?



Wrong. Want to test your faith on this idea?

Sure. Let's see.

 

[The Barbarian]

Sure. Let's see.

Ok. Let's say that there is a population with a particular gene having two alleles in the population, both (to make the numbers easier) with frequencies 0.5.

Then suppose a mutation causes a new allele, and eventually it increases in frequency until each of the three alleles is has a frequency of about 0.33.

What was the information before the mutation and what was it after mutation evolved?

Information in population genetics uses the same equation used for passing information over channels like radio frequencies or optical cables.

For the first (two alleles) the information is about 0.30.

The second (after another allele evolved) it's about 0.43.

It's also possible to measure selective pressure. Would you like to see that?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Ok. Let's say that there is a population with a particular gene having two alleles in the population, both (to make the numbers easier) with frequencies 0.5.

Then suppose a mutation causes a new allele, and eventually it increases in frequency until each of the three alleles is has a frequency of about 0.33.

What was the information before the mutation and what was it after mutation evolved?

Information in population genetics uses the same equation used for passing information over channels like radio frequencies or optical cables.

For the first (two alleles) the information is about 0.30.

The second (after another allele evolved) it's about 0.43.

It's also possible to measure selective pressure. Would you like to see that?

I am not willing to assume mutation is evidence of evolution.

 

[The Barbarian]

I am not willing to assume mutation is evidence of evolution.

Doesn't matter. Reality is not very accommodating to belief. Perhaps you don't know what "evolution" means. What do you think it means?

That's one example, of the way evolution is measured. Would you like to see another?

 

[Peter J Barban]

Doesn't matter. Reality is not very accommodating to belief. Perhaps you don't know what "evolution" means. What do you think it means?

That's one example, of the way evolution is measured. Would you like to see another?

Since you say that my opinion doesn't matter, I am no interested in your content.

 

[The Barbarian]

Invinceable ignorance...

For your own benefit, go look up "biological evolution"; there are more ways it can be measured.

For example, the Hardy-Weinberg equation can measure the amount of selection in a population...

The Hardy–Weinberg principle, also known as the Hardy–Weinberg equilibrium, model, theorem, or law, states that allele and genotype frequencies in a population will remain constant from generation to generation in the absence of other evolutionary influences. These influences include genetic drift, mate choice, assortative mating, natural selection, sexual selection, mutation, gene flow, meiotic drive, genetic hitchhiking, population bottleneck, founder effect and inbreeding.

In the simplest case of a single locus with two alleles denoted A and a with frequencies f(A) = p and f(a) = q, respectively, the expected genotype frequencies under random mating are f(AA) = p2 for the AA homozygotes, f(aa) = q2 for the aa homozygotes, and f(Aa) = 2pq for the heterozygotes. In the absence of selection, mutation, genetic drift, or other forces, allele frequencies p and q are constant between generations, so equilibrium is reached.

The principle is named after G. H. Hardy and Wilhelm Weinberg, who first demonstrated it mathematically. Hardy's paper was focused on debunking the then-commonly held view that a dominant allele would automatically tend to increase in frequency; today, confusion between dominance and selection is less common. Today, tests for Hardy-Weinberg genotype frequencies are used primarily to test for population stratification and other forms of non-random mating.
Hardy–Weinberg principle - Wikipedia

If the population in generation n+1 does not fit the predicted results, it is a measure of evolutionary processes in the population.

There's more...

 

[nolidad]

Since your goal is to save people, don't worry about evolution.

People make decisions emotionally and then justify them logically. That is human nature. Some use evolution as an excuse not to believe. If you could prove that evolution was wrong, they would switch to another excuse, such as "what about all the evil Christians do?" or "was Mary really a virgin?" etc.

Instead, ask God to give you insight into what matters to their heart. When you can answer the silent cry of their heart, they will be ready to receive the truth of the Gospel.

Battling the false doctrines of evolution have their place in the spiritual warfare. But not when it comes to saving a soul unless God shows specifically.

The average Joe who believes in evolution just has blindly accepted teh indoctrination they got from their schools.

The priests of evolution OTOH (those who have gone on to specialty training) are far harder to reach! They are also far harder to battle- they have so many rabbit trails to take you on and tend to use the specific languages that most of us do nto speak day to day.

For many that impresses them that they must know what they are talking about.

My personal opinion (if it is worth even a penny) is that most believers in the dogmas of evolutionism have never really thought in depth about their belief system. For if they pout them up to the light of verifiable proven science , they would know most of their creeds would crumble.

 

[nolidad]

I am not willing to assume mutation is evidence of evolution.

Well there are two working definitions of evolution.

1. Generically- any change in a host or offspring (like if my mom had brown hair and I have blonde) is evolution.

2. what we mostly talk about here- called Darwinian Evolution or goo to you by way of teh zoo.

I believe in evolution, but Darwinian Evolution is a belief system that is untestable. Even Barbarian here with his example of alleles. first it has to be rules out that the new allele (information) was not a recessive trait that has come to be a dominant! that is part of Mendels LAw! That is also why white parents who come from white parents who come from white parents and so on and so on for multiple generations can produce a jet black baby if an ancestor say 25 generations ago was black! It has happened.

Black Couple Gives Birth to White Baby