I am so sick of hearing about Ellen White!!!

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Jesus was wholly God, wholly man,. That is what incarnation means.

The word incarnate does not speak to proportionality.

I didn't say that it did.

It only means that a spirit being took on human form.

That is NOT what incarnation means. If I am understanding you correctly that was a heresy that was disposed of in the early centuries of the Christian church.

 

[Eila]

If you understand the second sentence then you have your answer for the question.

This one? "Solemn words were these, spoken by the angel. I asked the angel why so few were interested in their eternal welfare, so few preparing for their last change."

Where is there a condition stated? What happened to make the prophecy not come true?

Because that's the way it works.

How do you come to that conclusion Biblically?

No. She never said that it would happen in X days, like time propecies in the Bible do.

The prophecy referred to the length that people would live and the time frame of the return of Christ.

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
If you understand the second sentence then you have your answer for the question.

This one?

Was it the one in the quote that I gave B4 my answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
Because that's the way it works.

How do you come to that conclusion Biblically?

By reading the Bible and seeing what happened with the various prophecies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
No. She never said that it would happen in X days, like time propecies in the Bible do.

The prophecy referred to the length that people would live and the time frame of the return of Christ.

How much time was given? Is it a number? If not, then it isn't a time prophecy.

 

[Eila]

By reading the Bible and seeing what happened with the various prophecies.

So how do you view the Messianic prophecies for instance? Are the prophecies regarding the birth or crucifixion conditional? If so, how specifically did you come to that decision?

 

[djconklin]

Not all prophecies are conditional, specifically Messianic prophecies aren't.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

If you look at many of the old testament prophecies it is clear that it is conditional. They were given to show the children of Israel how things would be if they continued to be faithful to God and remained his chosen people. In Zechariah 14 for instance, God say that he would gather all the enemies of Israel round about and fight for them. The prophecy also states that those enemies that survive would have to come to Jerusalem yearly and keep some of the old covenant feast. That us clearly conditional. Who are the enemies of Jerusalem in our time? Jesus himself deviated from the messages in those prophecies by the many times he spoke about entering the kingdom of heaven and when he promised to take us to the place that he will go to prepare for us. He said to lay up treasures in heaven. He was clearly suggestion an event that was not revealed through the earlier prophets in that way. Those prophecies were conditional.

 

[OntheDL]

Thanks for the link. I think it is helpful when considering Jonah is to remember that Jonah fled for a reason. Jonah 4 "2He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."

Jonah knew while he was still in his own country that God would have mercy on them. I understand the conditional nature here, but it is helpful to remember that the "mercy" factor was present when Jonah was first given the message to go to Ninevah as evidenced by the Jonah 4 quote.

That wouldn't make sense. So Jonah knew God would forgive them if they repent that's why he fled? I think he was using that as an excuse for his flight.

We can see Jonah was angry with God after God spared Nineveh. They were heathens. He did not care for their salvation. This is shown when God reasoned with him afterwards.

Jonah 4
10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

As for EGW....what in her statement leads you to understand that this information from the angel was conditional in nature? The bracketed part of the quote seems to suggest partial fulfillment. What condition did this woman meet or not meet?

Do you think the timing of Christ's second coming is conditional?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the endcome.

Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

 

[Eila]

Not all prophecies are conditional, specifically Messianic prophecies aren't.

I agree

If you look at many of the old testament prophecies it is clear that it is conditional. They were given to show the children of Israel how things would be if they continued to be faithful to God and remained his chosen people. In Zechariah 14 for instance, God say that he would gather all the enemies of Israel round about and fight for them. The prophecy also states that those enemies that survive would have to come to Jerusalem yearly and keep some of the old covenant feast. That us clearly conditional. Who are the enemies of Jerusalem in our time? Jesus himself deviated from the messages in those prophecies by the many times he spoke about entering the kingdom of heaven and when he promised to take us to the place that he will go to prepare for us. He said to lay up treasures in heaven. He was clearly suggestion an event that was not revealed through the earlier prophets in that way. Those prophecies were conditional.

Here is the problem I have with this idea. You are determining that something was conditional based on whether or not you believe the Biblical prophecy was/will be fulfilled and not on the words in the prophecy. How do you know your interpretation of the prophecy is correct? If there are no conditions stated in the prophecy shouldn't we take the prophecy at face value? How do you take any of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation at face value if you first put a conditional stamp on any prophecy?

That wouldn't make sense. So Jonah knew God would forgive them if they repent that's why he fled?

That is what Jonah said. I don't see how him being angry changes things.

Do you think the timing of Christ's second coming is conditional?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the endcome.

Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

So the condition that was not met for EGW's prophecy to be fulfilled is that the gospel didn't go into all the world? Is that what you are saying? Why demonstrate partial fulfillment by stating that someone had died a few days after her prophecy? Was only part of the prophecy conditional?

If no man knows the day or hour and the world was far from hearing the Gospel why did the angel tell her that? The little band of Adventists at that meeting couldn't have physically preached the gospel in all the nations considering over 1/2 the world was unevangelized in 1900 (nearly 880 million people) and most of those people were rural.

 

[Eila]

This brings another question to mind. How would one determine if a prophecy is conditional or false/incorrect if there is nothing conditional mentioned in the prophecy?

 

[honorthesabbath]

Yes, that's exactly right!! I love Yancey's book What's so Amazing About Grace. But he is not and no one has ever said he was a prophet.

So if all of a sudden one of these MEN (I'm seeing some bigotry in this thread against women prophets) were to announce that they were a prophet--how would that change your feelings about their books?

 

[honorthesabbath]

I don't think anyone wants them dead and gone, but a personal choice whether to read and believe her writings or not. You should not have your entire faith in a church questioned because you do not agree that someone does not deserve the title of prophet. Saul gave prophecies, however, we would not consider him a prophet. I do not believe that she was a prophet, however, that should not preclude me from being a SDA or looked down upon as not having the full truth.

I do not believe this issue will be addressed at judgement.

There will be no quizes on her writings, thoughts, or questions about if I lived my life by her commentary. There are so many things for us as SDA to be focusing on other than this mortal woman. Whether you see here as a prophet, bible commentator, or completely ignore her is not a issue that will separate you from God or affect your salvation.

Are you so sure of this?

Nu 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
1Ch 16:22 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
2Ch 20:20 ......Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.
2Ch 24:19 Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they would not give ear.
2Ch 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.
Ne 9:26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations.
Re 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Mt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

I'm sure you are getting the point. How DO you think you will have to answer for how YOU treated God's messenger?

 

[honorthesabbath]

WHOA!! This board is messed up! The timestamps are wrong and my posts are not in the order in which I posted them..

I think CF has a glitch clean-up coming.

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eila
Thanks for the link. I think it is helpful when considering Jonah is to remember that Jonah fled for a reason. Jonah 4 "2He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."

Jonah knew while he was still in his own country that God would have mercy on them. I understand the conditional nature here, but it is helpful to remember that the "mercy" factor was present when Jonah was first given the message to go to Ninevah as evidenced by the Jonah 4 quote.

That wouldn't make sense. So Jonah knew God would forgive them if they repent that's why he fled? I think he was using that as an excuse for his flight.

We can see Jonah was angry with God after God spared Nineveh. They were heathens. He did not care for their salvation. This is shown when God reasoned with him afterwards.

Jonah 4
10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Both are correct. I'll see if I can find my 15 page bibliography on Jonah so you can find it out for yourselves.

 

[djconklin]

This brings another question to mind. How would one determine if a prophecy is conditional or false/incorrect if there is nothing conditional mentioned in the prophecy?

Virtually all prophecies (excluding Messianic one's) are conditional unless stated otherwise (specifically, time prophecies)

 

[djconklin]

This brings another question to mind. How would one determine if a prophecy is conditional or false/incorrect if there is nothing conditional mentioned in the prophecy?

Virtually all prophecies (excluding Messianic one's) are conditional unless stated otherwise (specifically, time prophecies)

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eila
Thanks for the link. I think it is helpful when considering Jonah is to remember that Jonah fled for a reason. Jonah 4 "2He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."

Jonah knew while he was still in his own country that God would have mercy on them. I understand the conditional nature here, but it is helpful to remember that the "mercy" factor was present when Jonah was first given the message to go to Ninevah as evidenced by the Jonah 4 quote.

That wouldn't make sense. So Jonah knew God would forgive them if they repent that's why he fled? I think he was using that as an excuse for his flight.

We can see Jonah was angry with God after God spared Nineveh. They were heathens. He did not care for their salvation. This is shown when God reasoned with him afterwards.

Jonah 4
10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Both views are correct; it oversimplifies things to see it only one way. I'll see if I can find my 15 page bibliography on Jonah (A paper!) so you can see the sources for yourselves.

 

[Eila]

Virtually all prophecies (excluding Messianic one's) are conditional unless stated otherwise (specifically, time prophecies)

So if a preacher across town prophecied about something how would you determine if it was false/incorrect or conditional if there is nothing in the prophecy that states it is conditional?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Virtually all prophecies (excluding Messianic one's) are conditional unless stated otherwise (specifically, time prophecies)

So if a preacher across town prophecied about something how would you determine if it was false/incorrect or conditional if there is nothing in the prophecy that states it is conditional?

You can tell that Jonah's prophecy is conditional by reading it: "40 days ..." Why give them 40 days if the end result was fixed?

 

[Lebesgue]

So if all of a sudden one of these MEN (I'm seeing some bigotry in this thread against women prophets) were to announce that they were a prophet--how would that change your feelings about their books?

Honour, I am NOT bigoted against women. IF Phil Yancey were to announce he was a prophet I would ignore his books just like I do Ellen White's.

I DO NOT believe there has been a prophet since John the Revelator and I am VERY firm on that position.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[Eila]

You can tell that Jonah's prophecy is conditional by reading it: "40 days ..." Why give them 40 days if the end result was fixed?

I didn't ask about Jonah. I asked if a preacher across town prophesied about something how would you know if it was conditional or if it was false/incorrect if there was no conditional language in the prophecy?