I am a former SDA

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It isn't a promise to Israel at Sinai that our salvation is dependent on; rather, it is to Abraham that the promise was given to, and that 430 years before the covenant (law) was given at Sinai.

430

• Nephesch: the animal soul of Man
• Covered with mist; darkness, twilight
• Sections, members [of the body]; fragments
• The Righteousness is the Foundation of the World: the full title of Yesod
• Concealed
• Tohu v-Bohu: “formless and void” (Gn. 1:2; “tohu” has the sense of “chaos&#8221
• Dew; mound

Sorry the Hebrew won't cut/paste here. But as we can readily see, the formula most prominently associated with 430 bes that of something what covers, veils, hence darkens or covers or distorts. This formula comes through clearly in the second entry in this list as well as the final three (concealed, formless & void, dew). Yesod being the as much the realm of the illusory as of the intuitive, the formula bleeds tangentially there as well. The Body fragmented bes the result of such ongoing concealments and veilings and illusions, and these both reside in and arise from nephesch, the animal nature/soul in Man.

So the completion of this formula becomes an attempted legalistic codification of the promise into something quite its opposite. The promise indicates God's intent to do for man what he could in no way, shape or form do for himself. In Abraham's case it bes to birth a nation whose members bes as numberless as the sands of the shore or stars of the sky -- from withered loins and a dried up womb at the age of 99 for himself and not much younger for his spouse, Sarai. No way in heaven, hell or earth could any human do anything about reification of THAT hope under THOSE circumstances. It had to be ALL of God or it would be NONE at all. Here bes where so many even today in Christendom do ERR, NOT knowing the scriptures NOR the power of God. They believe it ultimately depends upon themselves -- upon some grand power they wield called "free will" to "make a decision for Christ", to "repent", and to "start obeying God". ALL of that bes VEILS, MAYA, ILLUSIONS!!!! All of that bes OLD COVERINGS (covenant) obscuring and suffocating the ORIGINAL promise which bes repeated afresh in the NEW covering (covenant).

And yet just as the promise indicated God's intent to do for man what he could in no way, shape or form do for himself -- so did the Law, and the covenant established around it, indicate man's refusal to recognize how desperate his plight, how depraved his condition, how desperate his need. What does man say in response to the glorious promises shared on tablets of stone? "All that the Lord has said ... WE shall do." As IF!! As IF man could be righteous infested with the Virus of perversity to turn him, from inside, aside from all what bes good, and do so apart from the only source of all what bes good and right, merciful and true. AS IF!!! Thus the OLD covenant represented condemnation and condemnation only, for it bes such as what man can do to please God or add to His salvation: precisely nothing. Utter abject failure, designed to teach us an important lesson: without the Spirit to walk in and God to work IN us, we bes havesy NO escaping from them fulfillings of filthy depraved greedy slavering lusts of the flesh whatever they might be, from the shocking to the banal, from the spiritual counterfeits brewed in Hell Itself to the shallow and hollow pursuits meant to distract the mind another hour and another from all what bes needful in life.

Merciful God make sense of its contorted verbiage whats from stammering lips and an unknown tongue, and glorify Your Name.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I'm starting to get lost.

It could be because I've not been well these last couple of days and haven't completely followed the thread. Now I *can't.*

So in keeping with "I am a former SDA," here's a little more of why the "former."

That boyfriend I met right out of high school, and married within the SDA church, turned out to be a drug addict/alcoholic and very abusive. The counsel from the church was to stay with him; divorce was wrong, God would take care of me, and the children needed an intact home. When I told the pastor some of the specifics, he expressed concern that "the congregation may want to disfellowship him if he's doing those things," but no help was ever offered as far as getting me safe.

During that period I was hospitalized numerous times for depression. This being a small town, the nearest mental health facility was more than an hour's drive away. The lady who had been our Bible teacher, and now served as sort of a lifestyle mentor, an older lady who was a major pillar in the church, refused to render assistance in helping my children to be able to visit me when I was hospitalized. "Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind," she said, reasoning that if I missed my kids enough I'd straighten up and quit going to the hospital. Even when my drug addicted husband was between jobs and refused to look for work, I was counseled not to do so myself, because as a mother my place was in the home.

During one of the weekly fellowship meals, after Sabbath service, my husband ordered me to get up and bring him some more juice to drink. At that moment I was holding one child while feeding the other, and indignantly asked him when he'd lost the use of his legs. That's when a deacon stood up, glared at me, smiled at him, and brought him the juice. Oh, how hubby loved that one....

My husband was a world-class slob who made housekeeping impossible. He would come home after I'd cleaned the house from floor to ceiling, zero in on some insignificant thing I'd neglected (like polishing the doorknobs or dusting the top of the refrigerator) and then proceed to trash the place. He didn't believe in picking up his own messes. He said and I quote, "That's what a wife is for." He wouldn't even so much as flush the toilet behind himself. But people visiting from church would judge *me* by the mess, simply because I was the wife and mother. Several of them, independently of each other, left copies of "The Adventist Home" with me. When one of the church members pulled hubby aside and whispered confidentially to him, "You really need to get on your wife more about keeping the house up," oh BOY did he have fun passing that message along.

Things became so bad at our house that I myself picked up the phone and called child protective services. I was a wreck, often suicidal, and their father was of course an abusive alcoholic/addict. Neither one of us was capable of being an effective parent. At first CPS just tried respite; took the children out of the house for a couple of weeks, then brought them back. I was already feeling like a failure as a mother because my children had been in foster care, and was in the depths of depression, when the following incident happened.

It so happened that the family who had taken my daughters in as foster children, visited the church that particular Sabbath. Things like that happen in a very small town. Well, the foster family had 12-year-old twin girls who had thoroughly enjoyed my daughters, and my 3-year-old was in turn nuts about them. One of the twins scooped my daughter up in her arms and invited her to sit with them. I consented. Later my daughter got up to go to the bathroom. What I didn't know was that the pastor's 5-year-old daughter had also gone to the bathroom around the same time, and that the pastor's wife had checked on her after a few minutes and found them both playing in the bathroom. The pastor's wife told my daughter to sit with me. So, knowing that I had given her permission to sit with the twins, but the pastor's wife had told her to sit with me, my 3-year-old daughter stood in the aisle next to my seat looking confused. Not knowing what the pastor's wife had said, I told her, "It's OK, honey, you can go sit with your friends if you want to." She cautiously started up the aisle. At that point the pastor actually interrupted his sermon in mid syllable, addressed me directly and snapped, "Will you please take care of your children?" Not what I needed in my current state of mind, especially to have him word it like that. I took care of them all right. I scooped them up and walked right out. (Thank God for the children's Sabbath School director, who later whispered to me, "I saw what happened, and my sympathies are with you." Otherwise I might have gone *completely* nuts.)

Even my abusive ex-husband sympathized with me on that one, and since the pastor was unavailable and I was far too upset, he discussed the issue with the pastor's wife. She took the attitude of, "The pastor feels children should sit with their parents," and when told we wouldn't be coming back to the church without an apology, she answered, "I don't think it's right to go around demanding apologies from people."

So much for them.

This attitude is not a congregational thing; it's denomination-wide. That fact was demonstrated to me later. Things remained unsafe in our house, and ultimately the children were removed until I divorced their father. CPS didn't *tell* me to do so; they didn't have that right. But that's what it took. When he was no longer in the picture, I got my children back. In the meantime, while I was dating my now deceased second husband, I was listening to a Voice of Prophecy broadcast. My children were still in foster care at this point but would come home soon after. It was a Mother's Day edition, and in putting mothers on a pedestal, the speaker said and I quote: "By the way, no true mother worthy of the name would ever entrust the care of her child to someone else."

I just started bawling. Second hubby held me in his arms and said that the statement insulted him too; his birth mother had given him up for adoption. To listen to VOP's rhetoric, even getting a babysitter now and then makes a mother unfit. This was the last time I ever had anything to do with Adventism.

Aside from the personal experiences, I also have come to view Bible interpretations in a different way, but that's another post.

So this explains why I am no longer an Adventist, and I doubt I've even scratched the surface.

Nothing against any individual Adventists personally.

 

[moicherie]

Lovebirds you suffered not only domestic abuse but 'spiritual' abuse from the church as well. Keep holding onto Jesus that is all that matters. The church does not know how to deal with 'broken' humans ....shame on us!

 

[VictorC]

And yet just as the promise indicated God's intent to do for man what he could in no way, shape or form do for himself -- so did the Law, and the covenant established around it, indicate man's refusal to recognize how desperate his plight, how depraved his condition, how desperate his need. What does man say in response to the glorious promises shared on tablets of stone? "All that the Lord has said ... WE shall do." As IF!! As IF man could be righteous infested with the Virus of perversity to turn him, from inside, aside from all what bes good, and do so apart from the only source of all what bes good and right, merciful and true. AS IF!!! Thus the OLD covenant represented condemnation and condemnation only, for it bes such as what man can do to please God or add to His salvation: precisely nothing. Utter abject failure, designed to teach us an important lesson: without the Spirit to walk in and God to work IN us, we bes havesy NO escaping from them fulfillings of filthy depraved greedy slavering lusts of the flesh whatever they might be, from the shocking to the banal, from the spiritual counterfeits brewed in Hell Itself to the shallow and hollow pursuits meant to distract the mind another hour and another from all what bes needful in life.

Merciful God make sense of its contorted verbiage whats from stammering lips and an unknown tongue, and glorify Your Name.

Quite a complex manner of stating the role of the schoolmaster, but quite good!

Galatians 3:23-25
23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Moriah_Conquering_Wind again.

Either I'm being too stingy, or this place makes it too hard to give away reputation points. Somebody feed this gal something for me!

Victor

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

This attitude is not a congregational thing; it's denomination-wide. That fact was demonstrated to me later. Things remained unsafe in our house, and ultimately the children were removed until I divorced their father. CPS didn't *tell* me to do so; they didn't have that right. But that's what it took. When he was no longer in the picture, I got my children back. In the meantime, while I was dating my now deceased second husband, I was listening to a Voice of Prophecy broadcast. My children were still in foster care at this point but would come home soon after. It was a Mother's Day edition, and in putting mothers on a pedestal, the speaker said and I quote: "By the way, no true mother worthy of the name would ever entrust the care of her child to someone else."

I just started bawling. Second hubby held me in his arms and said that the statement insulted him too; his birth mother had given him up for adoption. To listen to VOP's rhetoric, even getting a babysitter now and then makes a mother unfit. This was the last time I ever had anything to do with Adventism.

I am sorry for your experience. One of the problems I see with you story is that you allowed too many others to tell you what to do. That is one of the problems that many religions create, not just Adventism. People have to learn to listen to others and analyze what they say as worthy of listening to or not. Most Christians however don't teach the members to think critically. If you had been a little more critical you would have heard the words of the VOP speaker as unintelligent gibberish or seen that the intent of the words was other then they may have sounded. Instead you took it personally. But the statement if taken at face value would mean that you could not even send you children to school or even sabbath school classes, or sporting teams. Because all of those involve giving responsibility for your children to another, just as much as going out in the evening and hiring a babysitter.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

One of the problems I see with you story is that you allowed too many others to tell you what to do. That is one of the problems that many religions create, not just Adventism....

Yes, and it's further fostered when the one being "guided" is still in her teens when she becomes a mother, and the conservative small-town church in question is filled mainly with grandparents. They took on something of a parenting role, I'm sure with the best of intentions, but the counsel they gave me just didn't apply. Many remarks were made, among these older church members, how young people just don't know their ins and outs, and need to listen to their elders. I find that much of this railroading and busybodying has diminished as I've gotten older, and people tend not to assume I need as much "guidance" as I supposedly needed in my late teens/early twenties.

In all fairness I must point out that this could have happened in any conservative denomination, especially within the small-town environment where everyone is in everyone else's business. It isn't limited to SDA by any means.

 

[Mankin]

I am really sorry to hear about that experience. I once heard about an article that Adventism never even considers that abuse can be going on within its denomination but it does.

I'm really sorry about your spirtual and physical abuse. And you needed Jesus at that time not some male domination theologies.

BTW, your custom title really reminds me of myself. I too am often on CF when I should be writing my book. XD

 

[foofighter]

Dear LoveBirdsFlying,

Thank goodness you left Adventism. If nothing else, Adventism gives you lots of red flags to look for in other churches to know something is not right. I think Adventsim can be very toxic, especially the more "Adventist" a person is, the more out of kilter a person is with the Bible.

That quote from the VOP speaker is incredibly interesting, considering the fact that EGW left her first child for 5 years with another couple, so she and James could travel around. She also left her second child for a while as well. While reading "The Testimonies" I was really amazed by how much the White's traveled. I don't know how either of them could have really been parents to their children. But, no one from VOP would tell the real truth about the Whites. Ironically, the White's have told a lot of the truth themselves, but most people in Adventism don't read much except a few bits and pieces from Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages or Great Controversy, which she didn't write anyway. What a mess!

It is very difficult to question SDA'ism, when doing so is equivalent to having the spirit of Satan...Ellen wrote a lot about Satan. It is so interesting reading the real history of SDA'ism, as opposed to the half truths and white-washing about Elllen and the SDA church history. All I can say is, thank goodness for the internet. There are so many writings from the people who were there at the beginning and able to tell the other side of the story. Another interesting aspect to the Testimonies, is that you never heard anyone else's side of the story. It's like a trial with only the prosecutor to accuse and spread all manner of stories (whether true or not) about a person. Really nice to write these "broadsides" to be read aloud at church or published for all to see, when the other person had no way to defend themselves. They, more than likely didn't have a printing press and barrels of ink!!! Oh well, that 's how churches work that have self-appointed prophets. Isn't it interesting how many times in the New Testament, and from Jesus himself, the many warnings about false prophets?

Thanks for sharing your story. Perhaps it will help someone who may be curious about Adventism to run and seek a church that studies the Bible and the Bible only. No extra-Biblical authority.

 

[DRL]

LovesBirdsFlying,
I am so sorry you had to go through that horrendous experience. But rest assured, God does not waste anything that has happened to you.
I am a Born Again Christian who used to be a Seventh-day Adventist.
I am glad you are here. Thank you so much for sharing your story.
DRL

 

[JonMiller]

To be honest, the general adventist approach to issues is "these aren't happening" or to shun the person if they aren't hidden. This keeps sins (esepecially like abuse) hidden, while people get whispered about for wearing jewelery and those who wish to follow God get confused by chasing after works (and end out burning out doing that, as you can't be successful).

It reminds me a lot of the pharisees in the Bible.

JM

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Lovebirds you suffered not only domestic abuse but 'spiritual' abuse from the church as well. Keep holding onto Jesus that is all that matters. The church does not know how to deal with 'broken' humans ....shame on us!

Amen to what Moicherie said. You must know by now that your husband bes extremely abusive. You bes not still with that one, no??? Moriah hopes not.

Inexcusable how that pastor behaved. Even if he did not know the whole story and had issues about little ones wandering during services, etc. he still at the very least should have waited to take you aside in private and ask you about it in a caring and polite way focused on YOUR needs as a mother of wee ones, such as, "would you like one of our deaconesses to occasionally take the little ones to the mother's room for you so you can enjoy the sermon?" or something like that, caring about your situation instead of making you feel like a pariah in front of everyone. Whether online or in 3-d world that kind of attitude and approach just bes totally counterproductive and negative ... it will NOT succeed in winning hearts and minds and getting ppls to cooperate -- instead it alienates and infuriates and hurts feelings & causes bad blood. It helps no one.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

To be honest, the general adventist approach to issues is "these aren't happening" or to shun the person if they aren't hidden. This keeps sins (esepecially like abuse) hidden, while people get whispered about for wearing jewelery and those who wish to follow God get confused by chasing after works (and end out burning out doing that, as you can't be successful).

It reminds me a lot of the pharisees in the Bible.

JM

HAH. Try getting visited at night by apparitions and attacked in your sleep by something invisible wanting to kill you and having your mind and thoughts invaded while you bes at an SDA college trying to study theology -- and having NO CLUE what bes happening to you, you bes scared and dare to start telling ppls what bes going on and begging them to help you or at least pray for you or pray with you. You'll find out the absolute extremities of those things you mention above in a zillion ways you never wanted to know.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Quite a complex manner of stating the role of the schoolmaster, but quite good!

Galatians 3:23-25
23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Yes exactly!!!! You "get" Moriah.

Either I'm being too stingy, or this place makes it too hard to give away reputation points. Somebody feed this gal something for me!
Victor

Victor? It thinks they heard you!
Moriah bes away all day and comes back to find 3M more rep points. LOL!~!!!!!
None from this post though ... LOL!!!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Dear LoveBirdsFlying,

Thank goodness you left Adventism. If nothing else, Adventism gives you lots of red flags to look for in other churches to know something is not right. I think Adventsim can be very toxic, especially the more "Adventist" a person is, the more out of kilter a person is with the Bible.

It is very difficult to question SDA'ism, when doing so is equivalent to having the spirit of Satan...Ellen wrote a lot about Satan. It is so interesting reading the real history of SDA'ism, as opposed to the half truths and white-washing about Elllen and the SDA church history. All I can say is, thank goodness for the internet. There are so many writings from the people who were there at the beginning and able to tell the other side of the story. Another interesting aspect to the Testimonies, is that you never heard anyone else's side of the story. It's like a trial with only the prosecutor to accuse and spread all manner of stories (whether true or not) about a person. Really nice to write these "broadsides" to be read aloud at church or published for all to see, when the other person had no way to defend themselves. They, more than likely didn't have a printing press and barrels of ink!!! Oh well, that 's how churches work that have self-appointed prophets. Isn't it interesting how many times in the New Testament, and from Jesus himself, the many warnings about false prophets?

RAVENING WOLVES!~!!!!
Oh yeah.

Good post, it givesy you reppings.

 

[foofighter]

RAVENING WOLVES!~!!!!
Oh yeah.

Good post, it givesy you reppings.

Thanks Moriah, I apprciate that!

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Amen to what Moicherie said. You must know by now that your husband bes extremely abusive. You bes not still with that one, no??? Moriah hopes not.

No, I assure Moriah not. I divorced him while the children were still little. Now adults, by their own choice they have very little to do with their father. My second husband is now deceased, but I am happily engaged to a wonderful man.

Inexcusable how that pastor behaved. Even if he did not know the whole story.....

The thing is... he did.

There's more. I now realize that continuing to give birth to children in such an abusive environment did the children no favors, but at the time even I myself didn't realize the extent of the abuse going on. (My oldest was also sexually abused by that dog I was married to, a fact I didn't find out for many years.)

I wanted every one of my children.

Well, when I told the pastor I was expecting my third child, his very rude instant response was to sputter, "Isn't two enough?" Which offended me. Just because he and his wife stopped at two, doesn't mean everyone else in the world has to do the same thing.

When my third child died at two months old, of SIDS, I was sorely tempted to call that pastor and say, "Are you happy now?"

I don't care *what* the mother's circumstances, the answer to "I'm pregnant" should NEVER be any form of, "Oh, no, that's bad news." Especially when she herself is happy about it.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

To be honest, the general adventist approach to issues is "these aren't happening" or to shun the person if they aren't hidden. This keeps sins (esepecially like abuse) hidden, while people get whispered about for wearing jewelery and those who wish to follow God get confused by chasing after works (and end out burning out doing that, as you can't be successful).

It reminds me a lot of the pharisees in the Bible.

JM

I heard a comment made (by current and active SDA, so I'm not trying to be slanderous) about "these SDA's say it's wrong to wear jewelry, but every one of them wears a fancy, expensive bracelet. They put a little clock face in it, so they say it's OK."

That one just struck me as amusing. It's so true, not just of SDA but of many religious conservatives (read that "legalists"). They draw distinct lines between do- and do-not, then they hover as close to the edge of doing the do-nots as they can, while loudly condemning those that step even one toe over.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

That quote from the VOP speaker is incredibly interesting, considering the fact that EGW left her first child for 5 years with another couple, so she and James could travel around. She also left her second child for a while as well.

Oh? Hmmm. I wasn't aware of that.... and I doubt the VOP speaker was either. Or if he was, he blew it off for some reason. Thanks also to RC, who debunked the VOP statement with comments about school, Sabbath School, sports teams, etc. What mother is capable of being with her children 24/7? And, even if such a mother exists, is it really what's best for the children?

While reading "The Testimonies" I was really amazed by how much the White's traveled. I don't know how either of them could have really been parents to their children. But, no one from VOP would tell the real truth about the Whites. Ironically, the White's have told a lot of the truth themselves, but most people in Adventism don't read much except a few bits and pieces from Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages or Great Controversy, which she didn't write anyway. What a mess!

I also noticed some tendency to deify Mrs. White and misinterpret what they read. There was a magazine article in the Review and Herald that told of the time one of her sons nearly drowned. Her efforts at resuscitation were described in great detail, and then came the point where she bent down to kiss her son, noticed his eyelids fluttering, and knew he was going to survive.

I read the article and returned the magazine to its owner. The woman's eyes glowed with reverence and she gushed, "Did you read that part where she kissed her son and brought him back to life?"

Um, nope, 'fraid not. That isn't what I read. But I suppose the lady wanted to see Mrs. White as a superhuman miracle worker, for some reason. Whatever.

It is very difficult to question SDA'ism, when doing so is equivalent to having the spirit of Satan...

Or at the very least, the way our congregation saw us, questioning meant being too young to know better, and a lack of ability to understand. The older church members, apparently not mindful of the fact that my ex-husband and I, at 18 and 19 years old, were sitting right there, went on and on sometimes about "We understand, because we're older, but young people are ignorant and just don't get it."

Thanks for sharing your story. Perhaps it will help someone who may be curious about Adventism to run and seek a church that studies the Bible and the Bible only. No extra-Biblical authority.

I never have figured out how SDA's can say, "We follow the Bible, and the Bible only," and out the other sides of their mouths say, "We know Mrs. White is inspired, so we don't question what she says."

 

[Kolya]

Moriah bes God's daughter.
Moriah bes IN the family, whether the family wants it or not, because HE adopted it. Warts and demons and all.

Suck it up humans!

God adopts us warts and all. He helps us get rid of the warts, and consigns the demons to shoal (Gehenna), where they belong! Then we are remade in God's image!

 

[Kolya]

I never have figured out how SDA's can say, "We follow the Bible, and the Bible only," and out the other sides of their mouths say, "We know Mrs. White is inspired, so we don't question what she says."

Could not have stated that better myself. Pity the Rep nazis have stolen the rep button now once and for all.