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I am a former SDA

ricker

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I don't interpret the statements above the same way you do. I believe there is a substantial difference between saying that the church is the "remnant" church and saying it is the "true" church. I don't believe I can explain it to you in a way that would be satisfactory to you.

I also don't interpret the statement about EGW the same way you do. If it were not the prerogative of any individual SDA believer to accept or reject any statement by EGW as the Spirit leads them, it would not end with the words, "...the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." There are different concepts of what constitutes a prophet.

No one is trying to be sneaky or misleading in the wording of the faith statements above. They deal with issues that are complex and nuanced, and some which depend on events which have not yet happened. It's impossible to come up with phraseology that will satisfy everyone.

Hello! Let me start by saying I appreciate your opinion on things a lot around here.
I have a couple of questions. Does the official SDA church hold any beliefs that are contrary to what Mrs. White's interpretation of scripture is? From my admitedly dated experience being raised Adventist, it seems anything Ellen wrote is never officially countered or dismissed. Is there anything officially that says that any detail of her writings can be rejected for any reason?
God bless! Ricker

Edit to add: Hi Lovebirdsflying! I don't want to hijack your thread, just want to ask this one question of Telaquapacky! Thanks!
 
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moicherie

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I agree that the church should promote the health message from that perspective of health and not 'this is a one way ticket to glory' which some tradiionalitss use. The OP experience is interesting I recognise some of it and others I think 'Thank God that never happened to me I would have left a long time ago'! If suchAdventist churchs bases Adventism on God's love I think of lot of harm would not have occurred to some of our present and former brethern. And EGW writings be placed in its proper perspective - however how does one get any organisation to downplay a huge money earner?
 
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Telaquapacky

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Hello! Let me start by saying I appreciate your opinion on things a lot around here.
I have a couple of questions. Does the official SDA church hold any beliefs that are contrary to what Mrs. White's interpretation of scripture is? From my admitedly dated experience being raised Adventist, it seems anything Ellen wrote is never officially countered or dismissed. Is there anything officially that says that any detail of her writings can be rejected for any reason?
God bless! Ricker

Edit to add: Hi Lovebirdsflying! I don't want to hijack your thread, just want to ask this one question of Telaquapacky! Thanks!
Hi, Ricker!
The answers to your questions are No; and No, but who's gonna stop me?:)
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Sophia7 said:
That's interesting. I grew up in the Adventist Church, so I heard those kinds of things my whole life, but I considered them really extreme views because only some Adventists in my experience were that strict. I wasn't raised in a very conservative Adventist environment on a lot of things. My parents didn't pay a whole lot of attention to EGW's writings, so they didn't care if we went to movies or played card games (with real cards) or wore jewelry or whatever. We also ate meat. However, I knew a lot of Adventists who believed that if you went into a movie theater, your guardian angel had to wait outside and other ridiculous stuff such as you have described.

Later, when my husband was a pastor, we had some members in one of our churches who were very strict in following EGW's writings, not eating dairy products, not drinking water with meals, not using vinegar or black pepper or baking soda, not reading fiction, avoiding all medications, etc. They were more extreme than any other Adventists that I'd ever known. It caused me to really struggle with how to view EGW because I thought that if I took everything she wrote as authoritative, Christianity would be a miserable experience. It wasn't until I started seeing the problems with the IJ doctrine that I realized that I had to resolve my view of EGW as well. I disagreed with a lot of the Adventist lifestyle teachings, but I had kind of pushed them to the back of my mind and ignored them as minor issues until then.

You see, that's just it. One of the major factors that drove me out of Adventism was the multitude of extra-biblical rules like that, particularly in regard to their "health message". I was looking for a church based on the teachings of the Bible, and what I got was a lot of human opinion. The problem with the SDA's as I see it, is not that they place too much emphasis on the Law, as some have claimed, but that they do not place enough. If they would put more emphasis on the Law and less, on EGW, they would be biblically on much more solid ground. Of course, that would defeat their whole purpose for being, a bit like expecting Rome to affirm sola scriptura.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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You see, that's just it. One of the major factors that drove me out of Adventism was the multitude of extra-biblical rules like that, particularly in regard to their "health message". I was looking for a church based on the teachings of the Bible, and what I got was a lot of human opinion. The problem with the SDA's as I see it, is not that they place too much emphasis on the Law, as some have claimed, but that they do not place enough. If they would put more emphasis on the Law and less, on EGW, they would be biblically on much more solid ground. Of course, that would defeat their whole purpose for being, a bit like expecting Rome to affirm sola scriptura.
This one's experience bes similar but different. :)
Similar in that at the time, being newly "born again" and not trusting man-made religious institutions, least of all Christian ones -- (e.g. it bes warned in vision much the same way God warned Joseph in a dream: Matthew 2:12 "And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way") -- it bes seeksy church what teaches the "whole" Bible and it came across the SDA as many not raised therein do -- by means of a prophecy seminar nearby and flyers distributed to local homes about it.

At first it rejoiced to find a church that seemed to have the "answer" for everything. It bes thinking God had a will for everything in life and these people seemed in tune with that and teaching it. God knew the right way to live -- the right way to eat, the right way to speak, the right way to worship, the right things to shun and avoid, etc. -- and here bes His church goodly teaching these things, praise God there bes someone in the world doing so aright!!! So Moriah THOUGHT.

But underneath it all bes the subtle underpinning of legalism and false soteriology placing all emphasis on human volition and completely failing from the fundamental reality scripture presents of sin and what its presence does in our world and in our bodies, ourselves, to abrogate such a thing and render it the child of folly rather than of fortitude. And eventually Moriah found itself where it had no volition and could not exercise what little it had in any successful fashion, because it had been trapped in a toxic soteriology cesspit, hemmed in on every side. At every failure real or imagined stood the dropper of the sulphuric acid of threatened condemnation and being forsaken by God for sinning willfully against the truth. At every possible way out stood the lurker on the threshhold whose will bes stronger than Moriah's. At every turn it had no control and yet it bes supposed to regard itself as if it not only could have fixed all this on its own if it "really" wanted to BUT also supposed to swallow the total lies brewed in hell that its inability to do so indicated it bes insincere somehow or not really repentant or had not had the "repentance not to be repented of" that everyone talked about, or whatever....

Well the problem with that bes either you believe it or you don't. If you don't you bes haunted and tortured by the "what ifs" and by the increasing evidence you bes a sinner and cannot live God's way no matter what proving to yourself it "must" be the correct answer -- but if you do believesy then you tears yourself apart for days, weeks, months, even years for hours on end every day never finding that elusive sin-hold lurking in there somewhere (you bes convinced) -- like pelling an onion to getsy center there BES NO CENTER but you cries all the way there. It BES sincere or it would not have destroyed itself so thoroughly trying so hard to please God -- but it could not see that because this toxic soteriology trap, basing everything upon the "right action of the will" and whether human sinners stuck in virus-ridden flesh "obeyed God" or not, kept condemning it with no way out.

Long story short, the emphasis maybe not upon the Law so much as upon KEEPING the Law -- and with it a multitude of other rules and regulations given JUST as much weight and deemed "the only right way to do anything & everything and if you disagree or depart you bes in rebellion against God so don't even think about it" -- THAT bes what made its faith shipwreck in the end. Then Satan comes. Then Satan takes it over. Then Satan brings it comfort and relief. He says He understands. He says Moriah understands Him. Supposedly He bes a liar so how come in 1983 He bes the only voice speaking the truth??? :cry:
 
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VictorC

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If they would put more emphasis on the Law and less, on EGW, they would be biblically on much more solid ground.
I disagree; added emphasis on the law mediated by Moses isn't what Adventism needs to be doing. They are already fixated on a law far too much, a law that was never given to the Gentiles. Consider these words the Pharisees spoke in reference to the Gentiles, in John 7:49:
But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

At the time they spoke these words, they were correct. This is because the covenant of the ten commandments made strangers of the Gentiles as long as that covenant was in force. Ephesians 2:11-16 explains this clearly, and I encourage you to look at these verses sometime.

But, that isn't why I posted.
I see that you found your way to the congregational forum, which is great. Me, I'm a bit behind, and I just found your post in the Theology area a little while ago. I wrote a response there that you might take an interest in:
welcome! I'm a newbie too <-- this link should take you right to it.

Good to see your presence here!
Victor
 
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StormyOne

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focusing on "the law" has led to the craziness in behavior that we see... relationship has to be the point of reference, the context.... in healthy family relationships i.e. marriage or parenthood, the emphasis is not on someone "breaking the law" as much as it is on being "in" relationship....

That is the problem as I see it, think about how different christians would act IF the emphasis was placed on the Sermon on the Mount as opposed to the "law." Especially the last part of chap 5 of Matthew which deals with going the extra mile, turning the other cheek, loving one's enemies...
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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YES! Stormy you totally gets it and nailed it good. Focus on relationship not "breaking the law". Some extremists in the SDA camp make relationship DEPEND upon "keeping" the law though. They propose if you break the law you bes OUT of the relationship UNTIL you "repent" and "repent" means not just be sorry but prove you will obey from now on. Well the problem bes this. Sin bes a frackin VIRUS people, a spiritual VIRUS with ramifications and effects on us PHYSICALLY, EMOTIONALLY, MENTALLY, INTELLECTUALLY, MORALLY, VOLITIONALLY (above all!) and SPIRITUALLY. Sin bes not just a matter of obedience versus disobedience. Do you "disobey" the laws of health when you sneeze because you have a cold? Or by getting a cold at all? Do you "disobey" healthiness because you come down with a flu?

Or look at head lice for example -- they like CLEAN heads better than dirty ones to infest -- how's that work? So you bes "unclean" by being CLEAN enough that lice want to infest you?
Law bes not primary with relationship secondary and dependent thereupon. Quite the opposite!! Relationship comes FIRST and LAW gets REINTERPRETED because of it, in fact dealing with "law violations" gets totally CHANGED because of it. God does NOT PUNISH or turn His back or shut us out till we shape up. He disciplines, yes -- which means PATIENTLY and HELPFULLY correcting, instructing, guiding in ways HE knows we WILL accept and listen to, NOT just whatever way makes Him feel He has gotten His "pound of flesh" in retribution for our having offending Him.

Amen to everything you said Stormy! Just having fun launching off from it. :)
 
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VictorC

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Moriah bes God's daughter.
Moriah bes IN the family, whether the family wants it or not, because HE adopted it. Warts and demons and all.

Suck it up humans! :D
Moriah, you have summarized the Gospel in your own unique way. Warts and all describes the best of us, and you remind me of this passage from Romans 3:7-10:

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one...

We aren't better than even those who claim we trample the sabbath, even though we retort that they're only trying to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to His (Romans 10:3).
We have a more secure salvation than trying to be good enough for God (safe to "save", as Ellen said). We are God's purchased possession!

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Victor
 
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VictorC

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Victor, you're not confusing me with SonOfGodAlmighty, are you?
Yes, actually I am :scratch: Please forgive me, one who knows not what he doth post from time to time.
For some reason I thought you were SOGA.
Beats me why.
Seems like both of you were uplifting the law...

Say, aren't you on CARM, but with numbers in your name there? I saw something you may have posted, but I didn't respond to it. My posting name is easy to remember:

Victor
I had to add the "C" here because someone else already took "Victor".
 
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VictorC

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Sorry, wrong again. :p

I'm not on CARM.
Indeed.
The member I'm thinking of is 'Sold1erOFChr1st' on CARM.
You do realize you're not helping my batting average today, don't you?
No reason for you to feel sorry, though :) my lousy memory is my own fault, sort of like the itty bitty bit of gray hair.

Did you have any comments on the post I wrote that actually was for you?
I disagree; added emphasis on the law mediated by Moses isn't what Adventism needs to be doing. They are already fixated on a law far too much, a law that was never given to the Gentiles. Consider these words the Pharisees spoke in reference to the Gentiles, in John 7:49:
But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

At the time they spoke these words, they were correct. This is because the covenant of the ten commandments made strangers of the Gentiles as long as that covenant was in force. Ephesians 2:11-16 explains this clearly, and I encourage you to look at these verses sometime.
Sooner or later I will figure out who is who, but have patience with me ^_^

Victor
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one...

We aren't better than even those who claim we trample the sabbath, even though we retort that they're only trying to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to His (Romans 10:3).

Yeah He showed Moriah something like that recently. He showed it first some ppls -- mainly one person but kind of mooshing a couple others in there into one "symbolic" person -- whats got some messed up ideas about stuff and/or messed up and hurtful ways of approaching some things. They bes not SDAs but they bes generic fundy types -- the militant sort what excuses being rude or mean or even mistreating others because they think that doesn't matter if you bes "witnessing" -- though they stood in for any fitting the bill in that regard, SDA or non. Anyways -- but then He says "I want you to see what I see" (not those exact words and He doesn't use humanspeak to talksy Moriah anyhow, more like He puts an awareness inside it).

And He opens up their heart to Moriah and shows that inside there bes a very real and earnest desire to know Him, please Him, walk with Him. And so inside Moriah it bes feelsy its hate and anger melting -- (a good thing too, as it bes so incensed in one case that it bes well nigh to resorting to sorceries) -- and melting into pity. It felt pity for this human what bes trapped in such unpromising and crude things, with such earnestness in their hearts. It bes like swaddling the tenderest softest skin of a babe in the roughest, scratchiest, crudest garments what chafe and suffocating therein. He says to Moriah, "I want you to know this is why I do not judge as you judge." Of course we know His judgment bes righteous and ours bes not. We judge based on ourselves and what we want and what we like. That bes not bad nor evil -- just inadequate to penetrate the truth of another's heart. They do not show us the behavior we want to see and so we murmur inside ourselves (and sometimes outward to others) that they must be doing that on purpose just to spite or diss or be difficult or rebel or whatever. And thus we judge them in the poorest light possible as a result, but really, why? REALLY bone cold honest with ourselves why? It bes because they have offended us by not being what we demand them to be. When the truth of the matter bes this: no one bes what they bes "on purpose" for some ulterior motive ...... how on earth do humans think themselves into such horrible knots with one another??? :doh: :scratch:

Anyways that vision came from God. Not all of them do for daimonizomai. The Dark ones givesy visions too. But this one comes from God because it bes what Christ teaches and what the Word (written) confirms -- that we cannot judge others, that we see only the outside while God sees the heart, and that His ways bes not our ways but much higher (and better). And if Balaam the sorceror what wanted cursing Israel can have visions from God, so can Moriah. Suck it up, humans! :D
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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VictorC said:
Did you have any comments on the post I wrote that actually was for you?

Well, let's see...

VictorC said:
I disagree; added emphasis on the law mediated by Moses isn't what Adventism needs to be doing. They are already fixated on a law far too much, a law that was never given to the Gentiles.

Well, I agree that they are fixated too much on a law, but it's a law of their own devising, and that's the problem. We all live according to a law of some kind even if it's just "do what thou wilt". The question is not whether we live according to a law, the question is do we live according to God's law or man's?

VictorC said:
Consider these words the Pharisees spoke in reference to the Gentiles, in John 7:49:
But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

I read that verse in context, and I know that this was in Jerusalem on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jews from the world over would be converging on the city. It sounds to me that the Pharisees are talking about those Jews who believed in Jesus.

VictorC said:
At the time they spoke these words, they were correct. This is because the covenant of the ten commandments made strangers of the Gentiles as long as that covenant was in force. Ephesians 2:11-16 explains this clearly, and I encourage you to look at these verses sometime.

The common misconception is that the Old Covenant is the Law. The Old Covenant is God's promise to the nation of Israel that if they stayed faithful to his Law, the would prosper, and if they rebelled against his Law, they would come to ruin.

As for the passage in Ephesians, it is talking about how Christ through His death on the cross made peace between Israel and the Gentiles, ending the enmity between them over the Law, specifically from the Gentiles disobedience to the Law. The Law no longer divides Israel and the Gentiles. Why? Hint: The mission of Paul's ministry is to call the Gentiles to repentance.

Incidentally, I actually did post on the thread you linked to, just a ways further back, I believe it was post #12.
 
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VictorC

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Well, I agree that they are fixated too much on a law, but it's a law of their own devising, and that's the problem. We all live according to a law of some kind even if it's just "do what thou wilt". The question is not whether we live according to a law, the question is do we live according to God's law or man's?
I would agree that we are to live by the commandments that God gave to us, but they aren't actually codified as a law that conveys penalties for infractions, as the covenant mediated by Moses did.
I read that verse in context, and I know that this was in Jerusalem on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jews from the world over would be converging on the city. It sounds to me that the Pharisees are talking about those Jews who believed in Jesus.
As I re-read the passage, I tend to agree that you may well be right.
In essence, would you agree that the Pharisees lumped the believers in Messiah with the Gentiles, who also did not know the law and were strangers to the covenant?
My reading raises that question in my mind.
The common misconception is that the Old Covenant is the Law. The Old Covenant is God's promise to the nation of Israel that if they stayed faithful to his Law, the would prosper, and if they rebelled against his Law, they would come to ruin.
It isn't a misconception - the old covenant that was made at Sinai was the core of their law, the ten commandments.

Exodus 34:27-28
27: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28: And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
12: And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13: And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The verses following this attribute the responsibilty that Moses expressed in Deuteronomy 4:40:
Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
Moses spoke these words just before introducing the ten commandments in Deuteronomy 5. The entire covenant initiated at Sinai became known as the law of Moses, or generically "Moses".

This covenant was never complied with, as God concluded all of the recipients disobedient in Romans 11:32:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

It isn't a promise to Israel at Sinai that our salvation is dependent on; rather, it is to Abraham that the promise was given to, and that 430 years before the covenant (law) was given at Sinai. As Galatians 3:16-18 explains this:

16: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17: And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18: For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The mentioning of the 'covenant' above is referring to Abraham, long before Moses received the ten commandments. This was when Abraham received circumcision as well as the promise that through him the nations would be blessed.
As for the passage in Ephesians, it is talking about how Christ through His death on the cross made peace between Israel and the Gentiles, ending the enmity between them over the Law, specifically from the Gentiles disobedience to the Law. The Law no longer divides Israel and the Gentiles. Why? Hint: The mission of Paul's ministry is to call the Gentiles to repentance.
Repentence from what?
The Gentiles never received the law mediated by Moses.
The Gentiles could not be "disobedient" to a law that had no jurisdiction over them, and this covenant relationship they lacked was the exact reason that Ephesians 2 explains that they had no hope.

Romans 2:11-14 affirms this:

11: For there is no respect of persons with God.
12: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves...

They may have complied with the motions of right and wrong, but those motions never gave them a relationship with God. It wasn't until the wall of partition was removed they were able to enter into a relationship with God - through the Blood of Jesus, and not the Mosaic covenant.

Ephesians 2:11-16
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16: And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

The enemy of the Gentiles was that law that only the circumcised had. It is that law that kept them strangers from the promises made to Abraham.

Victor
 
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