• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Hypothetical: Creationism becomes standard in science classes

Status
Not open for further replies.

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Show me what you read so I can see it. I have read the original reports, and the in situ analysis of that enzyme seems to contradict what you have quoted.
Right here

The reeducation is far more serious in the case of the milk, though. Health food store owners I have spoken to about this do not understand the difference between homogenization and pasteurization, and they are afraid of selling milk that will make someone sick. That's a lot more reeducation than the cell phones, after everyone saw the star trek communicators and before that Dick Tracy's two-way wrist radio.

And yogurt companies are doing this as you suggest. Organic yogurt homogenized is about $3.20 a quart. Non-homogenized is $5.60 at Walmart. Organic yogurt purchasers are likely more savvy about all aspects of nutrition.
Wow. You mean producers can sell non-homogenized dairy products at higher prices and make more money? Then why would they be paying scientists to say that there's no benefit to non-homogenized milk?

Don't think I didn't notice that you failed to answer this question:

"I asked you who is paying scientists to say that there is no real benefit to non-homogenized milk.

It can't be the milk companies. After all, they would just sell non-homogenized milk at the same price and increase their profits since they aren't having to pay to have the milk homogenized. So who is paying scientists to say that there is no real benefit to non-homogenized milk?"
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Yes they did. I know because I was a member of the appropriate organizations for many years, and did research of my own, and taught in the field, as well as did counseling involving latent abilities.
Great. Link to the results.

Also, if you got empirically verifiable results, why didn't you apply for JREF $1,000,000 Challenge and walk away with some serious money?

I know what the quantum observer effect is. And the link you gave seems to say it's both.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
I posted a responsible scientific review article four times yesterday. It completely disagrees with you. The results are so impressive that money is being funneled for more research and doctors are taking serious note.
Are you talking about this article

Can Prayer Heal?

I read through it then and again just now. I'm not impressed.

It claims that meditation may be just as effective as prayer and provides no evidence whatsoever that prayer is verifiably helpful.

There sure are a lot of if and maybes for a supposedly scientific study.

And of course there is the age old question, "why does God never heal amputees?"

Can you give me another theory how the salt got there?
Saltwater lakes in the mountains? Sure. Water with dissolved salts in it enters the lake at one rate but leaves at a different rate. As some of the water evaporates, the salt stays behind increasing the salinity.

Be skeptical.
As I can find no sites other than creationists ones that claim that the plant matter found in the mammoths stomach was tropical, I am skeptical that this is the case.

Can you prove that it is not so?
I don't have to prove it is not so. The person making the claim has the burden of proving that it is so.

It's proof of geographical relocation.
First there has to be proof of tropical plant matter found in a mammoth's stomach as opposed to plant matter from where it was found. Once that is established, we can move on to determining whether that means there was geographical relocation.

The article you posted does not mention that part of it.
Yep. And they're a major Young Earth Creationist organization. If there was something to the geographical location argument, you'd think they would have jumped all over it.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Yes, yes, no, no. I know a few of each, and how they act.
I know an architect and he's about as elitist as it gets.

It seems to me that you think that anyone that is highly educated is elitist.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
You agree that evolution is both a fact and a theory?

You and I know this is so, but I hear many others saying something different.
Really? Because I have been following this issue for nearly 15 years and the only people who talk about evolution as "just a theory" are creationists.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Yes, and when DNA evidence became available, a lot of them were set free with apologies and money to pay for what they had to go through.
A lot? The number of convictions overturned in the US due to DNA evidence is 349. That's since 1989. Compared to the number of convictions in the US since 1989 that isn't "a lot". It's minuscule. I'm glad innocent people were set free however.

None of that has any bearing on whether we can determine guilt or innocence without eyewitnesses. Not to mention that eyewitness testimony has one of the worst records on successfully identifying the correct perpetrator.

Of the above 349 convictions overturned with DNA evidence, 71% were originally convicted based on eyewitness testimony.

I would trust scientific testing and investigation over eyewitness testimony every time.

I taught classes in a prison for just over a year. It seemed pretty obvious to me that a lot of men were there just because they did not have the communication skills to convince the judge they were not guilty.
Seriously? You taught in prison for over a year and still think that most people are found guilty by a judge?
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
And I disagree with almost every statement made by creationists as well.
Really? So when they say the evidence shows a 6,000 year old earth, a global Flood, and dinosaurs living with man, you reject their claims?

But no one has yet attacked me on those, so I have not had to answer them. I did my own study on the flood, and consider it extremely probable.
Start a thread on what you think is the strongest evidence for a global Flood (that isn't a PRATT) and I'll discuss it with you. Please include why you think it was 5,100 years ago as opposed to the 4,004 years ago that the vast majority of creationists believe.

Please link to it here though as I might miss it otherwise.

Since it happened after my 6000 year cutoff, my arguments for it are different from those we have been discussing. I am absolutely certain the earth is at least 5800 years old. It's beyond that I do not know.
Hey I agree with you. I too am absolutely certain that the earth is at least 5,800 years old. Beyond that we disagree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
You got that date by using techniques developed int he world of today. It's the techniques I don't trust.
Because they information they give conflicts with your view of the world, not because there is any empirical evidence to believe that physical forces worked differently in the past than they do now.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
A hundred sixty years 3120-2960) is enough to get almost a million people, just from the 8.
Are you serious? To go from a population of 8 to almost a million in just 160 years means a growth rate of around 7.6%. A growth rate like that means that by the time of Moses (~600 years later) there were 9,782,565,967,984,300,000 people on earth. And by the time of Jesus' birth (3122 years later according to you) there would be approximately 1.66x10^33 people on earth. That's just insane.

Assuming you don't think that when Jesus was born there were 2,107,618,631,990,304 people per square inch of land area on earth, what stopped the population from growing at that rate and when did that happen?

As far as inbreeding, Noah's sons could easily have had wives of three different cultures. Also, children were conceived on the ark, according to ancient legends.
This would be in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
No, I know that. Jesus lives in me, and this changes my life. If He did not rise, He did not ascend, and would not be available at the cosmic level to live in me. You do not accept this level of evidence, of course, since it uses techniques that were not developed by science,a nd is part of a reality that you have not experienced, just like I have never experienced the world before 6000BC.
You haven't experienced the world before, at most, 70-80 years ago. Why do you trust things that are part of a reality that you have not experienced?
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
No, I'm saying that atoms may work that way today, but worked differently in the past.
You have no reason to think that other than the results conflict with your worldview.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
*I* didn't post any article.
I think he referring to this article I posted about the levels of support for evolution in the US. He replied to my post of that article with the usual about "micro" vs "macro" as well.

At no point does the article even mention "micro" vs "macro".
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Anything before human observation is NOT verifiable. It violates a basic principle of research applied consistently in regression analysis. Anything before this time is a theory. I am not saying this because of religious beliefs. I am saying it because it is a principle of science.
This is Meteor Crater in northern Arizona.

h_az_meteorcrater_02.jpg


There are no human records of anything creating this crater in Arizona. Therefore, according to your logic, the cause of this crater is not verifiable.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Photoshop has taught me not to trust photographs. Courts don't either, without eyewitness testimony.
Umm, courts most certainly do trust photographic evidence. If a defendant says he wasn't at the crime scene in question but the prosecution has a time stamped video still of him there committing the crime, you can but the jury won't take five minutes to convict him.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Sure it was. It is one of atheists favorite proofs that the Bible is not real. They quote the circumference of the temple lavers to prove it was the theory of ancient Israel.

Of course it is.
pi=3 is not a theory and never was. It is a claim made by the Bible that is incorrect.
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟278,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
pi=3 is not a theory and never was. It is a claim made by the Bible that is incorrect.

Calling the bible verse a "theory" is, indeed, going a bit far. There is no indication from that time that biblical writers were doing any more than making an estimate. Because this was a pre-scientific society, its a stretch to call such a tossed-in reference a "theory". More like a "rule of thumb".

Here's the verse, for those who don't know about it . . .

1 Kings 7:23
23 Now he made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference.
NASU
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Calling the bible verse a "theory" is, indeed, going a bit far. There is no indication from that time that biblical writers were doing any more than making an estimate. Because this was a pre-scientific society, its a stretch to call such a tossed-in reference a "theory". More like a "rule of thumb".
I agree with the idea that the writers were using it as a estimate or rule of thumb. But calling it a theory, at least in the scientific sense that Beherns is is trying to use it, is more than a stretch.
 
Upvote 0

TagliatelliMonster

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2016
4,292
3,373
46
Brugge
✟81,672.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
This is as good a place for this response to be given to you folks. The theory I was taught in 1975 has now been extended by a lot of scientific work. The review given here ()just posted by a Facebook contact of mine this morning) could be improved with more references, but is enough to get you started. If the theory is true, then it provides a way in which the appearance of human life will literally alter the visible universe to what the humans expect it to be. Scientific Experiments Show That DNA Begins as a Quantum Wave and Not as a Molecule
"scientific" experiments ha?

But for some reason, the "article" is posted on some new-age-type mumbo-jumbo website.
 
Upvote 0

Bugeyedcreepy

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2016
1,660
1,431
Canberra, Australia
✟95,748.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
A couple hours ago I posted a referenced to the book "Science is a Sacred Cow" which demonstrates that it is a critique of science by a real scientist, and recognized so at its time. The book used an argument regarding the idea that scientists can never prove the existence of ghosts, if in fact, ghosts exist, and part of their nature is to avoid scientists. In fact, an early theory from this following branch of science (which I read their journal for many years) implies that this is so. That there are things in the world which cannot be seen by scientists, due to the way in which the scientific mind must work. The Association for Transpersonal Psychology promoting a vision of the universe as sacred. I do not know if the theory has been accepted, but I have found it to be true in many years of pastoral work.
Science is a Sacred Cow by Anthony Standen is a satirical opinion piece, but an interesting book to read nonetheless. The woo you posted which allegedly follows on as a branch of science is something that I'll hazard a guess isn't even a considered science, let alone some theory in science, and I'm thankful for it. What people think personally and the practice of the Scientific Method are different arenas. If someone is mixing the two, then it isn't science. Exactly All of the technological innovations and medical breakthroughs we've accomplished as a human race are borne of methodological naturalism. Pointing out that we are human doesn't negate the facts, as your own link on Einstein prove.
2. That is true of some languages. In other cases, the language was absorbed by a later language, which prepared educational materials, and we have learned the first language from the second. Your argument does not apply to calendrical dating, where mathematics comes into play to aid translation. I accept that DNA determines paternity, but not that it can date accurately. I do not believe DNA is viable for more than a few dozen years.
Point stands, we can and have relearnt dead languages. The oldest knownDNA we've found came from an ancient horse bone (~700,000 years ago) - we've been able to recover neanderthal DNA, Mammoth DNA, etc. from more recent organisms - that you don't believe DNA can last that long is demonstrably wrong.
4. It is not a given this has not happen. The Mayan Bible speaks of a time during the flood, when such a thing occurred.
Citation please, I can't seem to find much on the earlier Mayan bibles that weren't influenced by the Christian rulers. Perhaps you could quote it for me? That another book of mythology supports a still unfounded scientific claim doesn't really add any weight, but I'd like to look at it all the same.
5. I thought of your idea, that the theft was reported later. The police said the victim rode the bike hours before he reported it stolen. My belief is that I did not see the marks on the ground, thinking they were caused by compactification of the snow when the barometer went up (this is common in Upstate New York with "lake effect" snow.)
Sure. Suffice to say though, for anyone faced with the same situation, they'd be incorrect to assume supernatural interference or magic/miracles. The statement "How would You explain it then..." is a classic argument from ignorance fallacy.
6. Einstein's theory has been recently challenged, with some experimental evidence. 5 things Albert Einstein got totally wrong Experiment Proves Einstein Wrong I once read in a responsible medical book of a lecturer who began his classes each semester by injecting himself with a quantity of deadly bacteria. His point was to prove the germ theory is not the complete answer, as disease requires a compromised host. Bacterial Pathogenesis - Medical Microbiology - NCBI Bookshelf I don't want to get into theory of evolution, since I'm trying to keep away from creationists theories, and anyone who writes against it is immediately labeled creationist, as you folks seem to be doing to me. Atomic theory can mean lots of things; there is a viable alternative that everything is a wave, and another that there are orbitals.
I'm not sure if you're even taking the time to read your own links - If you do have a citation on these challenged Einstein's theories, then I'd be interested to see them, so let's have them. The five things listed here that Einstein "got wrong" were his personal opinions on the importance of certain of his scientific predictions, namely gravitational waves (now observed and verified), that black holes wouldn't ever be observed (they have now), that gravitational lensing wouldn't be seen (used to observe very distant galaxies and to see repeats of supernova previously observed), and the field of investigation of quantum mechanics where methodological naturalism revealed the dual particle/wave properties of electrons and entanglement. Where anything in science is challenged, it'll be via the scientific method, as all of science would be. That's how we progress. Positing any number of outlandish & unfounded assumptions just doesn't fly, and I don't understand why you would think that's okay to do in science.
7. Unless there were lot of them.
No, we wouldn't be able to make any observations with the amount of contorted space you're trying to inject here. It's just not rational to say that.
I still have this webpage open. Third time today:Can Prayer Heal?
This article published in 2004 dealt with a preliminary research pilot for the Mantra study conducted in 2005 - which when run its full course and results gathered, was at best inconclusive. From Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia :
"A 2005 MANTRA (Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings) II study conducted a three-year clinical trial led by Duke University comparing intercessory prayer and MIT (Music, Imagery, and Touch) therapies for 748 cardiology patients. The study is regarded as the first time rigorous scientific protocols were applied on a large scale to assess the feasibility of intercessory prayer and other healing practices. The study produced null results and the authors concluded, "Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterization or percutaneous coronary intervention."[38] Neither study specified whether photographs were used or whether belief levels were measured in the agents or those performing the prayers."​
Of course there have been other studies you can find detailed on the same page, linked to their relevant research results , again no better than average, and in many cases those being prayed for even fared worse.
You can analyze the past as far back as your original evidence goes, plus a little bit. It is the distant past you cannot analyze.
Nonsense. As has been explained, we do it all the time. Volcanic rock by its very nature leaves tell-tale markers that we can analyse now. They're consistent and correlate to other known good dating methods that lead to the same concordant results. We can see stars as they were billions of years ago fusing atoms in exactly the same way our own sun is doing now. We can make predictions using for example Einstein's Theory of Relativity that gives us a predictive framework for seeing a supernovae recurrence several more times after the first occurrence ,because of gravitational lensing. What you want to do is throw out the most sensible explanation for what we see & have already verified and replace it with some cosmic conspiracy that requires a near infinite level of calibration to look and feel exactly like the very same natural explanation we already have, but then lends you to insert your own dubious belief without evidence. This is why it isn't science in any regard.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Astrophile

Newbie
Aug 30, 2013
2,338
1,559
77
England
✟256,526.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Widowed
1806 was the "year without a summer" in New York State. Crops froze repeatedly all summer resulting in extreme poverty. The cause is presumed to be the Krakatoa explosion.
In fact it was 1816, and the cause was the great eruption of Mt. Tambora (Indonesia) in 1815. The climatic anomalies were not restricted to New York State or even to the United States; they affected Asia and Europe as well. For details, see Year Without a Summer - Wikipedia .
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.