Hyperdoxy, What is IT? How to avoid it?

[E.C.]

My advice is to make sure you don't trash your roots. Many ex-Catholics or former Protestants feel they need to trash their former church to prove their Orthodoxy. They think they'll get kudos but really people don't respect that.

I think it's great to take up an interest in the ethnic group of your parish, but to try to convert to another ethnicity becoming an "honorary" Serb or Russian or Greek, crazy....I've watched so much of that!!! Weird.

It's fun being an honorary Russian or Arab, but in the end there's no denying the Western European roots

You should never be ashamed of your pre-Orthodox life. I think that's ultimately the key trait of the Hyperdox is that they feel ashamed for growing up not Orthodox and feel the need to compensate.

I think you see that with converts in any religion though.

Apt statement. After all, how many Cat Stevens' in the world become Yusuf Islam?

 

[dzheremi]

It's fun being an honorary Arab...?!

 

[jckstraw72]

eating shawarma, doing the Debke, rockin' out with some hardcore Byzantine chant -- of course it's fun!

 

[dzheremi]

Ohhhh...that kind of thing. Yeah, okay.

Wait...does that mean that it's hyperdox to listen to Fairuz? Because there are some things I'm not willing to stop doing.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Oh, I get to help with baklava, bake kourabiedes, listen to Greek music, and I love pastitso (though I'm probably spelling half of this wrong) and I'm working semi-diligently to learn Greek (an interest that predates my involvement with the Church). But I'm not "becoming Greek". It's funny the way a few outsiders to our parish react to me when they ask my ethnicity (it's mixed, but a good deal of Cherokee, French, and Scots-Irish).

I'm not so unusual though. We have parishioners who are German, Irish, Ethiopian, Romanian, Russian, Mexican, as well as others I am not exactly sure of who are Middle Eastern, Asian, and a very exotic-looking dark-skinned woman who looks and dresses as I've seen photos of Coptic women. And probably others I'm forgetting. It's mostly Greeks, but we have a fairly diverse parish. Usually the Our Father is recited in five languages each week during the Liturgy.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Oh, I get to help with baklava, bake kourabiedes, listen to Greek music, and I love pastitso (though I'm probably spelling half of this wrong) and I'm working semi-diligently to learn Greek (an interest that predates my involvement with the Church). But I'm not "becoming Greek". It's funny the way a few outsiders to our parish react to me when they ask my ethnicity (it's mixed, but a good deal of Cherokee, French, and Scots-Irish).

I'm not so unusual though. We have parishioners who are German, Irish, Ethiopian, Romanian, Russian, Mexican, as well as others I am not exactly sure of who are Middle Eastern, Asian, and a very exotic-looking dark-skinned woman who looks and dresses as I've seen photos of Coptic women. And probably others I'm forgetting. It's mostly Greeks, but we have a fairly diverse parish. Usually the Our Father is recited in five languages each week during the Liturgy.

Ironiclly my Church is also that way, we are very diverse in background, even our priest is Romanian married to a american wife, I think him being a Romanian in the Greek Church made him understand we need to reach out to the community. We switch between Greek and English during Liturgy, and during the Lord's Prayer it is said in various languages depending on if any Arabs, Romanians, Slavs, etc. shows up on that day.

As far people saying don't trash your former religion, I'm happy my Grandma baptizied me Lutheran, I realize jumping from Lutheranism to Orthodoxy isn't so hard, and even if I had a not so good expirence at a Calvinist type church I am glad they showed a younger me how to take the gospel message seriously, and not be so lukewarm out in the world when asked if I am Christian. While I can't buy into Catholic theology, I respect their dedication to fighting abortion, feeding the poor, and staying true to marriage, which I wish we Orthodox wern't so open ended on. So don't expect to trash my past religions folks. I'll be polite saying why I can't be Lutheran, Reformed, Evanvelical or Catholic, but trashing them I can't do as these where my steping stones into Orthodoxy.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Oh, I get to help with baklava, bake kourabiedes, listen to Greek music, and I love pastitso (though I'm probably spelling half of this wrong) and I'm working semi-diligently to learn Greek (an interest that predates my involvement with the Church). But I'm not "becoming Greek". It's funny the way a few outsiders to our parish react to me when they ask my ethnicity (it's mixed, but a good deal of Cherokee, French, and Scots-Irish).

I'm not so unusual though. We have parishioners who are German, Irish, Ethiopian, Romanian, Russian, Mexican, as well as others I am not exactly sure of who are Middle Eastern, Asian, and a very exotic-looking dark-skinned woman who looks and dresses as I've seen photos of Coptic women. And probably others I'm forgetting. It's mostly Greeks, but we have a fairly diverse parish. Usually the Our Father is recited in five languages each week during the Liturgy.

Ironiclly my Church is also that way, we are very diverse in background, even our priest is Romanian married to a american wife, I think him being a Romanian in the Greek Church made him understand we need to reach out to the community. We switch between Greek and English during Liturgy, and during the Lord's Prayer it is said in various languages depending on if any Arabs, Romanians, Slavs, etc. shows up on that day.

As far people saying don't trash your former religion, I'm happy my Grandma baptizied me Lutheran, I realize jumping from Lutheranism to Orthodoxy isn't so hard, and even if I had a not so good expirence at a Calvinist type church I am glad they showed a younger me how to take the gospel message seriously, and not be so lukewarm out in the world when asked if I am Christian. While I can't buy into Catholic theology, I respect their dedication to fighting abortion, feeding the poor, and staying true to marriage, which I wish we Orthodox wern't so open ended on. So don't expect to trash my past religions folks. I'll be polite saying why I can't be Lutheran, Reformed, Evanvelical or Catholic, but trashing them I can't do as these where my steping stones into Orthodoxy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's good you can appreciate everything as stepping stones. I think that's one very good way to look at it, and that's generally the mindset I have now.

I'm often reminded of that little quote I can't remember right now who said it, but the Abba (or whoever it was) told the young preacher not to worry about the heterodox because God loves them and wants to save them, and (I think it's the same discourse) that he should praise what is correct in their faith and then show them what they're missing, rather than taking the (mistaken) attitude that they "have it all wrong."

But I confess that I've had my share of resentments against former denominations. Most especially the Baptist church where I "said the sinner's prayer and got saved". I am ashamed now at how I felt, because I loved that pastor and he was a man of God. I think the real problem was that they were just unprepared for a child to show up and essentially beg an audience and ... well, I never did fit the traditional Baptist mold, and I was always zealous, and I came alone from a non-religious core family. They just didn't know what to do with me, I think. So they said to me, "here, repeat this prayer, ok, now get baptized" and basically patted me on the head and told me my ticket to heaven was now punched, have a nice life. Years later when I looked back at what spiritual darkness I descended into, but was "assured of salvation, I'd done all I could do!" ... I was angry. I felt betrayed, and I think if I had died, I might not have been in such a good standing. But I really think they did do the best they could, and intended no harm. The same could be said, I think, of other spiritual lack and wounds I may have suffered in other places. But at the same time, they all deposited something good in me as well, so it's best to be thankful for that, forgive them for any lack, and thank God for where I am now. It took time to get to that way of seeing it though, for me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

eating shawarma, doing the Debke, rockin' out with some hardcore Byzantine chant -- of course it's fun!

and falafel, don't forget falafel

 

[ArmyMatt]

My advice is to make sure you don't trash your roots. Many ex-Catholics or former Protestants feel they need to trash their former church to prove their Orthodoxy. They think they'll get kudos but really people don't respect that.

I think it's great to take up an interest in the ethnic group of your parish, but to try to convert to another ethnicity becoming an "honorary" Serb or Russian or Greek, crazy....I've watched so much of that!!! Weird.

I also think Hyperdox think they have to comment on everything and read everything and become instant experts. That's annoying as heck!!

indeed, remember that Sts Patrick, Leo the Great, Augustine, etc are OUR saints. we have a lot to draw on in the Orthodox West

 

[civilwarbuff]

and falafel, don't forget falafel

Always thinking about your stomach Chewie......

 

[Light of the East]

Ironiclly my Church is also that way, we are very diverse in background, even our priest is Romanian married to a american wife, I think him being a Romanian in the Greek Church made him understand we need to reach out to the community. We switch between Greek and English during Liturgy, and during the Lord's Prayer it is said in various languages depending on if any Arabs, Romanians, Slavs, etc. shows up on that day.

As far people saying don't trash your former religion, I'm happy my Grandma baptizied me Lutheran, I realize jumping from Lutheranism to Orthodoxy isn't so hard, and even if I had a not so good expirence at a Calvinist type church I am glad they showed a younger me how to take the gospel message seriously, and not be so lukewarm out in the world when asked if I am Christian. While I can't buy into Catholic theology, I respect their dedication to fighting abortion, feeding the poor, and staying true to marriage, which I wish we Orthodox wern't so open ended on. So don't expect to trash my past religions folks. I'll be polite saying why I can't be Lutheran, Reformed, Evanvelical or Catholic, but trashing them I can't do as these where my steping stones into Orthodoxy.

I am glad they were your stepping stones to Orthodoxy. Quite frankly, the experience I had with Fundamentalism and Calvinism kept me from investigating the ancient faith for a number of years. While I know many good and gracious people in these theological camps, I find it hard to think well of the leaders in them who deliberately hide the truth of the writings of the Early Fathers.

It is something I find myself having to confess and repent of from time to time.

 

[Light of the East]

And in keeping in line with the tone and tenor of the OP, when I discovered the ancient way, I got the absolutely worst case of convert fever you ever saw. I was just so in love with the beauty and mystery of the faith that I wanted to experience it all. Kind of like a kid being given the key to the candy shop and told "Have at it, young-un!"

 

[civilwarbuff]

I am glad they were your stepping stones to Orthodoxy. Quite frankly, the experience I had with Fundamentalism and Calvinism kept me from investigating the ancient faith for a number of years. While I know many good and gracious people in these theological camps, I find it hard to think well of the leaders in them who deliberately hide the truth of the writings of the Early Fathers.

It is something I find myself having to confess and repent of from time to time.

May I ask what truths they hid?

 

[Light of the East]

May I ask what truths they hid?

I think the best reply to this is one that I was told by a Methodist minister who converted to the Catholic Church. He said that in four years of seminary, he did not hear one single quote from one single Early Father. My response was to say "That's not education. That's brainwashing."

Truths?

1. The Eucharist

2. Infant baptism

3. Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

4. Structure of the Church.

5. None of the names of any of the Ante-Nicene or Early Fathers was mentioned. (Unless you count the Calvinist favorite, St. Augustine, as an Early Father). I had no idea who Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, or any other father of the Church was.

What I did get exposed to was a heavy dose of Catholic bashing and the faux idea that the doctrines of the Anabaptists and the Calvinists were practiced in the first century. As one convert said, "It's like for them, Jesus ascends into heaven and then Christian history leaps ahead 1500 years with nothing in between."

 

[civilwarbuff]

I think the best reply to this is one that I was told by a Methodist minister who converted to the Catholic Church. He said that in four years of seminary, he did not hear one single quote from one single Early Father. My response was to say "That's not education. That's brainwashing."

Truths?

1. The Eucharist

2. Infant baptism

3. Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

4. Structure of the Church.

5. None of the names of any of the Ante-Nicene or Early Fathers was mentioned. (Unless you count the Calvinist favorite, St. Augustine, as an Early Father). I had no idea who Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, or any other father of the Church was.

What I did get exposed to was a heavy dose of Catholic bashing and the faux idea that the doctrines of the Anabaptists and the Calvinists were practiced in the first century. As one convert said, "It's like for them, Jesus ascends into heaven and then Christian history leaps ahead 1500 years with nothing in between."

I have to agree with you that most probably one of the largest failings of the Protestant movement is the almost total ignorance of the Early Church Fathers and our Christian heritage. They are mostly totally ignored today. Something I wish could be changed. But I do disagree with you about Catholics....In the 30 years I have been One with Christ I have never heard anyone talk negatively about Catholics until the past several months I have been on this site. I believe any Catholic who can declare that Christ is their Saviour is my Brother/Sister in Christ.

 

[E.C.]

Ohhhh...that kind of thing. Yeah, okay.

Wait...does that mean that it's hyperdox to listen to Fairuz? Because there are some things I'm not willing to stop doing.

No Fairuz has the voice of an angel. Besides how many Western pop singers would ever sing Western chants every year for Lent?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the best reply to this is one that I was told by a Methodist minister who converted to the Catholic Church. He said that in four years of seminary, he did not hear one single quote from one single Early Father. My response was to say "That's not education. That's brainwashing."

Truths?

1. The Eucharist

2. Infant baptism

3. Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

4. Structure of the Church.

5. None of the names of any of the Ante-Nicene or Early Fathers was mentioned. (Unless you count the Calvinist favorite, St. Augustine, as an Early Father). I had no idea who Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, or any other father of the Church was.

What I did get exposed to was a heavy dose of Catholic bashing and the faux idea that the doctrines of the Anabaptists and the Calvinists were practiced in the first century. As one convert said, "It's like for them, Jesus ascends into heaven and then Christian history leaps ahead 1500 years with nothing in between."

My experience with a variety of denominations was quite similar.

Then, in similar fashion, some of the Pentecostals behaved as if the Church essentially did not exist, except in dead form, from about the time of the death of the Apostles until the early 1900's when the Holy Spirit apparently decided to get involved again.

I've been wondering what that says about God and His willingness to just let somewhere between 1400 and 1850 years pass without apparently caring about the salvation of all those many generations of souls. Indeed, what does that say about God's opinion of Christ's own sacrifice?

But now I am edging into what this thread says do not do. Lord have mercy - my own words are evidence against me. At least I don't normally ever express such things in person - only here. But still ...

I have to agree with you that most probably one of the largest failings of the Protestant movement is the almost total ignorance of the Early Church Fathers and our Christian heritage. They are mostly totally ignored today. Something I wish could be changed. But I do disagree with you about Catholics....In the 30 years I have been One with Christ I have never heard anyone talk negatively about Catholics until the past several months I have been on this site. I believe any Catholic who can declare that Christ is their Saviour is my Brother/Sister in Christ.

I'm glad to hear this, but I cannot say my experience is the same. I have also heard a great deal of Catholic-bashing, though to be fair only in some churches. It is not isolated. I've also heard the Pentecostals bash the cessationist denominations, vice versa, and so on. I think there is the danger of any faith group bashing the others who they don't see as having the Truth that they themselves possess. Which is ironic ... I suspect that if we possessed a little MORE Truth in our hearts, instead of bashing, we would be moved to pray for those of our brothers and sisters less well-enlightened than ourselves.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And in keeping in line with the tone and tenor of the OP, when I discovered the ancient way, I got the absolutely worst case of convert fever you ever saw. I was just so in love with the beauty and mystery of the faith that I wanted to experience it all. Kind of like a kid being given the key to the candy shop and told "Have at it, young-un!"

Oh, well if that qualifies, I'm as guilty as possible. I wanted to know and experience everything!

I soon realized a lifetime isn't enough to know everything, and tried to settle for just continued learning and later seeking out that which is most needful.

As far as experience, I still want as much as possible. But mostly that means simply the Divine Liturgy, and looking up other Churches when I do travel (which isn't anymore, since thank God my husband works locally now!). I still hope to visit a monastery sometime when I can.

But the first time through the liturgical year is an experience itself! Pascha, Holy Week, Theophany, processions, various feasts and their liturgical celebrations. Also funerals, deathbed, marriages, baptism. There is a very great deal to experience.

 

[Light of the East]

Oh, well if that qualifies, I'm as guilty as possible. I wanted to know and experience everything!

I soon realized a lifetime isn't enough to know everything, and tried to settle for just continued learning and later seeking out that which is most needful.

As far as experience, I still want as much as possible. But mostly that means simply the Divine Liturgy, and looking up other Churches when I do travel (which isn't anymore, since thank God my husband works locally now!). I still hope to visit a monastery sometime when I can.

But the first time through the liturgical year is an experience itself! Pascha, Holy Week, Theophany, processions, various feasts and their liturgical celebrations. Also funerals, deathbed, marriages, baptism. There is a very great deal to experience.

Best day of my life (or at least one of the Top 10) was the day that +Fr. Mike (of happy memory) invited me to become an altar server.

Still serving today and love being there with the priest.