Hyperdoxy, What is IT? How to avoid it?

[jckstraw72]

Well, this is a tread about hyperdoxy, so the answer to that question has a lot to do with the hyperdox's attitude towards monasticism in general.

haha, lol cat, says the man who DID go overseas to Greece rather than to a nearby American monastery ...

 

[GregConstantine]

I'm still new to the monasticism thing in general, so I'd be happy to hear what you mean. I hear so much about Mt Athos and how wonderful it is. It seems to be considered an important pilgrimage for men. Many seminarians and priests I know have gone there. Is that a hyperdox attitude, in your opinion? Is wishing that I could go something you consider to be a hyperdox attitude?

Thinking that Mt Athos is wonderful is certainly not an "hyperdox" attitude, or is desiring to go there. Some very enthusiastic converts do sometimes take on too much too quickly when converting. One of them is the praxis of monastics. They will also sometimes gravitate towards a certain monastic person, and make every word they say as the last word on any and all things. They become super devoted to a particular monastic, sometimes to the exclusion of other people and their experiences and wisdom. This can lead to a unhealthy, off balanced approach to the Orthodox life. So sometimes, their attitudes towards Mt Athos, or perhaps another monastery, can take on a similar characteristic to the approach they may take to a particular monastic person, especially if said monastic came from a particular monastery.

 

[~Anastasia~]

They will also sometimes gravitate towards a certain monastic person, and make every word they say as the last word on any and all things. They become super devoted to a particular monastic, sometimes to the exclusion of other people and their experiences and wisdom. This can lead to a unhealthy, off balanced approach to the Orthodox life.

I think this is what my priest was essentially concerned about with all converts, so at first restricted me from reading certain things. This explains a bit better, thank you!

 

[jckstraw72]

that's another plus about having the various jurisdictions in America (i agree that it's a problematic situation, but might as well find the bright spots in it in the meantime) - we get exposed to the spirituality and spiritual giants from all over the world. so converts like myself, living with Army Matt back in the day at Penn State, and so many others i have known, can start out nourishing ourselves with and enjoying the lives and writings of Greeks like St. Paisios and Elder Joseph the Hesychast, Romanians like Elder Cleopa, Serbians like St. Justin Popovich and Elder Thaddeus, Georgians like St. Gabriel, etc. Being at Penn State, our parish was naturally more diverse too, so that helped in exposing us to a wide range of influences.

 

[jckstraw72]

Kylissa, you may enjoy this article by St. Paisios: "A Christian Must Not Be Fanatical": http://holycrossoca.org/newslet/1402news.pdf

 

[jckstraw72]

also, this book just came to mind: http://www.stspress.com/shop/books/bright-faith/

"Bright Faith" -- a collection of interviews with Fr. Artemy Vladimirov -- he is a married priest here in Moscow, a beloved spiritual father to many, I usually attend where he serves ... anyways, the title "Bright Faith" is quite apt - it's fully of joy, he's a deeply pious man without any fanaticism

 

[~Anastasia~]

Kylissa, you may enjoy this article by St. Paisios: "A Christian Must Not Be Fanatical": http://holycrossoca.org/newslet/1402news.pdf

Thanks, Jckstraw - I've read that one before but gave it a new read. I'm glad I did; different things stand out for me than before.

The second part (not the reason you're sharing it, I would think) was even better to me, but I do like the first part as well.

Regarding the first part, it's actually very much on my mind. I've been talking to someone named Ross through AFR - I think he is associated with OCA or AOC mission parishes? - and we have talked quite a bit about talking to non-Orthodox, or enquirers, etc. and speaking to them gently (among other things). I have learned a lot from him, and could learn a lot more if I continue to have opportunities.

But the second part of that article was very inspiring.

"If we take one virtue at a time, find the Saint who exemplified it and study his or her life, we will soon realize that we have achieved nothing and will carry on with humility.

Just as in racing, the runner speeding for the end line does not look back toward those lagging behind, but fixes his eyes forward, so too in this struggle we don’t want to be looking back and thus left behind. When I try to imi- tate those who are ahead of me, my conscience is refined. When, however, I look back, I justify myself and think that my faults are not important compared to theirs. The thought that others are inferior consoles me. Thus, I end up drowning my conscience or, to put it better, having a plastered, unfeeling heart."

Thanks again!

 

[ArmyMatt]

that's another plus about having the various jurisdictions in America (i agree that it's a problematic situation, but might as well find the bright spots in it in the meantime) - we get exposed to the spirituality and spiritual giants from all over the world. so converts like myself, living with Army Matt back in the day at Penn State, and so many others i have known, can start out nourishing ourselves with and enjoying the lives and writings of Greeks like St. Paisios and Elder Joseph the Hesychast, Romanians like Elder Cleopa, Serbians like St. Justin Popovich and Elder Thaddeus, Georgians like St. Gabriel, etc. Being at Penn State, our parish was naturally more diverse too, so that helped in exposing us to a wide range of influences.

indeed (and I agree that the jurisdictions are a mess and not canonical, but I am trying to find a silver lining). when we both were received into the faith at Holy Trinity (OCA) we went on a monastery tour to Holy Protection (Greek), Holy Myrrhbearers (OCA), St Nektarios (Greek), and Holy Trinity (ROCOR), before going to St John Chrysostom (Antiochian) as our parish when we went home for the summer. it was a blessing to see the variety in practice and unity of faith in the Church.

 

[civilwarbuff]

....living with Army Matt back in the day at Penn State, and so many others i....
You meet the strangest folks on this forum.
Go Bucks...OH-IO

 

[jckstraw72]

haha, you're lucky i'm one of the few Penn Staters who doesn't care about football ...

 

[jckstraw72]

Thanks, Jckstraw - I've read that one before but gave it a new read. I'm glad I did; different things stand out for me than before.

The second part (not the reason you're sharing it, I would think) was even better to me, but I do like the first part as well.

Regarding the first part, it's actually very much on my mind. I've been talking to someone named Ross through AFR - I think he is associated with OCA or AOC mission parishes? - and we have talked quite a bit about talking to non-Orthodox, or enquirers, etc. and speaking to them gently (among other things). I have learned a lot from him, and could learn a lot more if I continue to have opportunities.

But the second part of that article was very inspiring.

"If we take one virtue at a time, find the Saint who exemplified it and study his or her life, we will soon realize that we have achieved nothing and will carry on with humility.

Just as in racing, the runner speeding for the end line does not look back toward those lagging behind, but fixes his eyes forward, so too in this struggle we don’t want to be looking back and thus left behind. When I try to imi- tate those who are ahead of me, my conscience is refined. When, however, I look back, I justify myself and think that my faults are not important compared to theirs. The thought that others are inferior consoles me. Thus, I end up drowning my conscience or, to put it better, having a plastered, unfeeling heart."

Thanks again!

no prob! St. Paisios is truly amazing - is there no end to his wisdom?!

 

[~Anastasia~]

no prob! St. Paisios is truly amazing - is there no end to his wisdom?!

Ah, all I can say is that I've been told to start reading him, and the first book I got was "The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios". Along with snippets I've read here and there, and articles - I've always liked him, but I feel very blessed to be learning more now! And I've wanted another book about him (I think it was Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain) but it was way out of my price range. I searched again in Amazon, and a copy popped up super-cheap, so I've ordered that one too. Not only that - but I belong to a book and icon swap group online and someone sold me a nice-sized icon of him for just $10 - I can't believe no one else bought it first (he was getting rid of it because he wants all his icons to match in size and this one was too large - But a real blessing for me!). AND ... I didn't want to let it go, but I put that icon in the altar at Church, and missed it - so can you believe (I never said anything) an iconographer friend in Australia gifted me with a prayer rope, and in the envelope he tucked in a small laminated icon of St. Paisios that he later told me came from the Church where he is buried.

No end to the blessings - this all happened within the space of a few weeks!

 

[jckstraw72]

a few years ago i was at the monastery where he's buried - Souroti - on the night of his repose - they had, literally, an all-night Vigil with Liturgy, 1000's of people. Met. Athanasios of Limassol was serving and in his sermon he said "If Elder Paisios [this was before his canonization] isn't a saint, then who is?!" we were all like "yuuup"

 

[~Anastasia~]

a few years ago i was at the monastery where he's buried - Souroti - on the night of his repose - they had, literally, an all-night Vigil with Liturgy, 1000's of people.

That sounds pretty awesome.

"If Elder Paisios [this was before his canonization] isn't a saint, then who is?!"

Just from seeing how he was in that first book - I can't imagine anyone being MORE saintly than that ...

 

[GregConstantine]

Wounded By Love By St Porphyrios is fantastic!

 

[E.C.]

Did he ever say why? Just curious.

The first reason was because while there are English speaking monks there, there are no English speaking monasteries. The second was that after Mt. Athos he realized that the spirituality at some monasteries in North America was about the same level, if not greater, than that of Athos. After that he couldn't justify the cost to go anymore.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Wounded By Love By St Porphyrios is fantastic!

It has been recommended to me so many times. . And I was told to read St. Porphyrios at the same time as I was told to read St. Paisios. I also found a very inexpensive copy of Wounded by Love - in Greece! The shipping was more, but it still came out much cheaper than I can get it in the US, even used.

It finally arrived, and I couldn't resist. I opened it up just to read a little (I'm trying to be disciplined! It's a great weakness of mine not to be.). And I read a little I think in a chapter on Love.

It was a completely astounding and revolutionary thought to me! I wanted to keep reading, but I had a few others I'm finishing (I read three at the same time as it is - usually one with some theological or informative basis, one on the life of a Saint, and one that reads like centuries - roughly speaking, so I don't get confused.).

And my SF agreed - he said finish one or two of the others first. So I reluctantly have not read any more.

But I can't wait! If the other books were not so wonderful, I'd be tempted to maybe rush them in order to get to Wounded By Love, but I'm enjoying them too much. (Though now that I'm almost finished with the one on St. Elizabeth, it has been too sad recently.)

Thank you so much for the recommendation.

 

[Cappadocious]

St. Porphyrios truly had no resentment and understood resentment.

 

[gzt]

Speaking of another thread, he's a good one to learn humility from.

 

[jckstraw72]

i've been slugging through a book of his on advice to parents, in Russian, i love how he just says it like it is but, as you say GZT, with humility