Hyper grace and the great lie

[JLR1300]

Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

BUT Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9), hence we cannot be charged with this sin, Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, John 8:36.

Why do you reject what God's word says here against the works of the law that you always preach?

In fact we see many scriptures warning about determining our righteousness and salvation by works of the law (Gal 3:3, Rom 10:3, Rom 11:6, 2Cor 3:7-11, Gal 2:21, etc, etc).

Yet you disobey God's will to believe on Jesus (John 6:40) and instead you preach works of the law. And remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

You cant be sitting on the fence like this. Either you're saved by grace (where your faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5), OR you're doing PERFECT obedience to the law to be righteous by self works.




So as you preach the law all the time can you answer these questions below. They're based on commandments in the law so as you preach so much on the law then you should have no troubles answering these questions.

Under the law we are to keep the Sabbath holy.

Are you keeping the Saturday Sabbath holy, a day of rest?
Or are you habitually and willfully sinning in breaking that commandment, and therefore lost?

Mark 10:11,12 tells us that divorcees who marry another are in adultery (sin).
Considering that divorcees marrying another is so common these days, even amongst Christians, then are you saying that these remarried divorcees are habitually and willfully sinning, and therefore lost?

And also are you saying that Christians are more forgiving than God is?
You certainly seem convinced that God has a low tolerance for anyone doing wrong hence my question whether you claim that God is not really into forgiveness.




So again I ask how many sins makes it habitual?

Is 10 sins habitual?
Or
Is 100 sins habitual?
Or
Is 7x70 sins habitual?

The term "habitual" is such an ambiguous term which fails to clarify where the cut off point is.
We cannot be ambiguous about such matters when your teaching claims that our salvation depends on whether we are guilty of habitual sin.

The doctrine you have been taught needs to answer these questions from scripture, because if it cannot then it must be error doctrine.

It may just be that your concern is about selfish behavior from Christians. If so then it has been derailed into following a false doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.

I believe Christians do improve in their behavior. But each of us is at a different stage of growth to each other. And remember also that God is well able to make a Christian stand in spite of what unique circumstances they're facing.
Rom 14:4
Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand

I suggest that rather than your OT preaching condemnation under the law and thereby setting yourself up as a judge (James 4:12), that you instead, preach the gospel of Christ, that we should believe on him. Let God instruct and direct Christians. Who are you to judge another (James 4:12)?

Thanks for your insightful words. You certainly make a lot of good points. I was also thinking about Acts 13:39 which says..."and by Him (Jesus) everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

then later in Acts 14 the Apostles heard that some people were teaching the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Jesus they also needed to keep the laws of Moses. So they held a council to discuss the issue. In the meeting Peter said that God had "purified their hearts (the hearts of the Gentiles) by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the necks of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved..."

So the Apostles wrote a letter to the Gentile believers and explained that they did not need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. Nevertheless, they asked that the Gentiles keep themselves from food offered to idols and from sexual immorality... evidently the main reason being because those things would be a bad witness for the Christian faith.

Here is how they worded it... "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well"

So the Apostles were teaching that when it comes to justification and salvation, God did not put us under the yoke of the law. We do not have to keep the laws and commandments to be saved. Nevertheless, they admonish us to refrain from things that will give Christianity a bad reputation.

This passage is quite astounding!

 

[JLR1300]

Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

BUT Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9), hence we cannot be charged with this sin, Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, John 8:36.

Why do you reject what God's word says here against the works of the law that you always preach?

In fact we see many scriptures warning about determining our righteousness and salvation by works of the law (Gal 3:3, Rom 10:3, Rom 11:6, 2Cor 3:7-11, Gal 2:21, etc, etc).

Yet you disobey God's will to believe on Jesus (John 6:40) and instead you preach works of the law. And remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

You cant be sitting on the fence like this. Either you're saved by grace (where your faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5), OR you're doing PERFECT obedience to the law to be righteous by self works.




So as you preach the law all the time can you answer these questions below. They're based on commandments in the law so as you preach so much on the law then you should have no troubles answering these questions.

Under the law we are to keep the Sabbath holy.

Are you keeping the Saturday Sabbath holy, a day of rest?
Or are you habitually and willfully sinning in breaking that commandment, and therefore lost?

Mark 10:11,12 tells us that divorcees who marry another are in adultery (sin).
Considering that divorcees marrying another is so common these days, even amongst Christians, then are you saying that these remarried divorcees are habitually and willfully sinning, and therefore lost?

And also are you saying that Christians are more forgiving than God is?
You certainly seem convinced that God has a low tolerance for anyone doing wrong hence my question whether you claim that God is not really into forgiveness.




So again I ask how many sins makes it habitual?

Is 10 sins habitual?
Or
Is 100 sins habitual?
Or
Is 7x70 sins habitual?

The term "habitual" is such an ambiguous term which fails to clarify where the cut off point is.
We cannot be ambiguous about such matters when your teaching claims that our salvation depends on whether we are guilty of habitual sin.

The doctrine you have been taught needs to answer these questions from scripture, because if it cannot then it must be error doctrine.

It may just be that your concern is about selfish behavior from Christians. If so then it has been derailed into following a false doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.

I believe Christians do improve in their behavior. But each of us is at a different stage of growth to each other. And remember also that God is well able to make a Christian stand in spite of what unique circumstances they're facing.
Rom 14:4
Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand

I suggest that rather than your OT preaching condemnation under the law and thereby setting yourself up as a judge (James 4:12), that you instead, preach the gospel of Christ, that we should believe on him. Let God instruct and direct Christians. Who are you to judge another (James 4:12)?

Thanks for your insightful words. You certainly make a lot of good points. I was also thinking about Acts 13:39 which says..."and by Him (Jesus) everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

then later in Acts 14 the Apostles heard that some people were teaching the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Jesus they also needed to keep the laws of Moses. So they held a council to discuss the issue. In the meeting Peter said that God had "purified their hearts (the hearts of the Gentiles) by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the necks of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved..."

So the Apostles wrote a letter to the Gentile believers and explained that they did not need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. Nevertheless, they asked that the Gentiles keep themselves from food offered to idols and from sexual immorality... evidently the main reason being because those things would be a bad witness for the Christian faith.

Here is how they worded it... "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well"

So the Apostles were teaching that when it comes to justification and salvation, God did not put us under the yoke of the law. We do not have to keep the laws and commandments to be saved. Nevertheless, they admonish us to refrain from things that will give Christianity a bad reputation. At that time they decided to lay upon us gentiles "no greater burden".

This passage is quite astounding!

 

[lori milne]

Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. BUT Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9), hence we cannot be charged with this sin, Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, John 8:36. Why do you reject what God's word says here against the works of the law that you always preach? In fact we see many scriptures warning about determining our righteousness and salvation by works of the law (Gal 3:3, Rom 10:3, Rom 11:6, 2Cor 3:7-11, Gal 2:21, etc, etc). Yet you disobey God's will to believe on Jesus (John 6:40) and instead you preach works of the law. And remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12. You cant be sitting on the fence like this. Either you're saved by grace (where your faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5), OR you're doing PERFECT obedience to the law to be righteous by self works. So as you preach the law all the time can you answer these questions below. They're based on commandments in the law so as you preach so much on the law then you should have no troubles answering these questions. Under the law we are to keep the Sabbath holy. Are you keeping the Saturday Sabbath holy, a day of rest? Or are you habitually and willfully sinning in breaking that commandment, and therefore lost? Mark 10:11,12 tells us that divorcees who marry another are in adultery (sin). Considering that divorcees marrying another is so common these days, even amongst Christians, then are you saying that these remarried divorcees are habitually and willfully sinning, and therefore lost? And also are you saying that Christians are more forgiving than God is? You certainly seem convinced that God has a low tolerance for anyone doing wrong hence my question whether you claim that God is not really into forgiveness. So again I ask how many sins makes it habitual? Is 10 sins habitual? Or Is 100 sins habitual? Or Is 7x70 sins habitual? The term "habitual" is such an ambiguous term which fails to clarify where the cut off point is. We cannot be ambiguous about such matters when your teaching claims that our salvation depends on whether we are guilty of habitual sin. The doctrine you have been taught needs to answer these questions from scripture, because if it cannot then it must be error doctrine. It may just be that your concern is about selfish behavior from Christians. If so then it has been derailed into following a false doctrine of righteousness by works of the law. I believe Christians do improve in their behavior. But each of us is at a different stage of growth to each other. And remember also that God is well able to make a Christian stand in spite of what unique circumstances they're facing. Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand I suggest that rather than your OT preaching condemnation under the law and thereby setting yourself up as a judge (James 4:12), that you instead, preach the gospel of Christ, that we should believe on him. Let God instruct and direct Christians. Who are you to judge another (James 4:12)?

I answers that question as well
Habitual first off cause you need a number of sins
The meaning of iniquity is wicked so someone who lives in sin is a habitual sinner and vomits iniquity.
The forgiveness is to your brother
Always forgive those!
And yes jesus will always forgive you
When you stop Sinning /Repent
But he who takes for granted Gods grace will is also disobedient and isn't a child of God
Your being deceptive which is a willful choice hence also iniquity vs the instinctual sin that you have to grow out of!

The Virginia with the oil parable was about them waiting to long /taking it for granted ,
The master said I never new you ,
They were holy lived to serve the Lord but the took it for granted and waited.
Don't let your flesh read the. Bible cause it will see between the lines and lie to you!
It's clear about sin
Unless you don't read enough and live off your pastors and commentators
Then this is the problem Hence another easy road

 

[lori milne]

Free from sin isn't free to sin
Your cup is upside down !

I prey God opens the eyes of all to see clearly true understanding as well as hearing.

Jesus speaks of those who hear but don't understand!

I prey wisdoms and understanding floods you now in Jesus name
Amen!

 

[hmw]

Thanks for your insightful words. You certainly make a lot of good points. I was also thinking about Acts 13:39 which says..."and by Him (Jesus) everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

then later in Acts 14 the Apostles heard that some people were teaching the Gentiles that in addition to faith in Jesus they also needed to keep the laws of Moses. So they held a council to discuss the issue. In the meeting Peter said that God had "purified their hearts (the hearts of the Gentiles) by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the necks of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved..."

So the Apostles wrote a letter to the Gentile believers and explained that they did not need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. Nevertheless, they asked that the Gentiles keep themselves from food offered to idols and from sexual immorality... evidently the main reason being because those things would be a bad witness for the Christian faith.

Here is how they worded it... "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well"

So the Apostles were teaching that when it comes to justification and salvation, God did not put us under the yoke of the law. We do not have to keep the laws and commandments to be saved. Nevertheless, they admonish us to refrain from things that will give Christianity a bad reputation.

This passage is quite astounding!

Hi JLR,

I like your quotes from scripture.

Regarding the scripture about abstaining from blood, things strangled and also sexual immorality, I see this as all referring to the law.

I'll explain.

Blood and things strangled refers to the law with it's yearly sacrifices for sin.

And sexual immorality also refers to the law, symbolically speaking.
Remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
If we read it all in physical terms then we'll make the same mistake as Nicodemus who thought that "born-again" meant one had to re-enter into their mother's womb.

Note that God's will includes that we abstain from spiritual sexual immorality.
1THess 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10): that you should abstain from (spiritual) sexual immorality;

And how is spiritual sexual immorality referring to the law?

Remember firstly that as Christians we're married to Christ, Eph 5:31.
We're one Spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17.

Christians become one Spirit with the Lord when we believe on Jesus. That is we're saved by grace.

So who is the other that we're to avoid spiritual sexual immorality with?

It's Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 4:21-24
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—

The NT gives numerous warnings that we should not turn back to works of the law for righteousness. It says we're not to even mix works of the law, with grace.

Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

I understand the warnings in scripture against sexual immorality all refer to spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

Christians are saved by grace, and thus married to Christ. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

But if any Christian turns back to the law claiming that our righteousness is determined by works of the law, then such are into spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.

As Rom 11:6 says, we cannot mix works with grace.

 

[lori milne]

Corrected

 

[BryanW92]

These are all multiple meaning versus
Give me clarity!
One clear statement that has one meaning!

Like this one

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]18-19‬ KJV)

All scripture must be read in the context of all other scripture. You can't search for that one verse that proves your point and just walk away from the others.

 

[lori milne]

All scripture must be read in the context of all other scripture. You can't search for that one verse that proves your point and just walk away from the others.

Amen
Agreed

 

[lori milne]

Hi JLR, I like your quotes from scripture. Regarding the scripture about abstaining from blood, things strangled and also sexual immorality, I see this as all referring to the law. I'll explain. Blood and things strangled refers to the law with it's yearly sacrifices for sin. And sexual immorality also refers to the law, symbolically speaking. Remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14. If we read it all in physical terms then we'll make the same mistake as Nicodemus who thought that "born-again" meant one had to re-enter into their mother's womb. Note that God's will includes that we abstain from spiritual sexual immorality. 1THess 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10): that you should abstain from (spiritual) sexual immorality; And how is spiritual sexual immorality referring to the law? Remember firstly that as Christians we're married to Christ, Eph 5:31. We're one Spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17. Christians become one Spirit with the Lord when we believe on Jesus. That is we're saved by grace. So who is the other that we're to avoid spiritual sexual immorality with? It's Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law. Gal 4:21-24 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— The NT gives numerous warnings that we should not turn back to works of the law for righteousness. It says we're not to even mix works of the law, with grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. I understand the warnings in scripture against sexual immorality all refer to spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. Christians are saved by grace, and thus married to Christ. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. But if any Christian turns back to the law claiming that our righteousness is determined by works of the law, then such are into spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law. As Rom 11:6 says, we cannot mix works with grace.

These are all multiple meaning versus Give me clarity! One clear statement that has one meaning! Like this one For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]18-19‬ KJV)

 

[lori milne]

These are all multiple meaning versus Give me clarity! One clear statement that has one meaning! Like this one For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]18-19‬ KJV)

With our works there is no grace

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ([bless and do not curse]James‬ [bless and do not curse]2‬:[bless and do not curse]14, 17-18‬ KJV)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ([bless and do not curse]James‬ [bless and do not curse]2‬:[bless and do not curse]24‬ KJV)

Works and grace and faith all work together there is portion of the word
Bye grace is a tricky word in the bible
It's meaning is favor on GODS eyes
Not unmerited favor Paul added underserved to make a point to Jews and phrases.

Explain this verse for me if all sins are forgiven current and future.
It's not supported In the bible

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; ([bless and do not curse]Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]3‬:[bless and do not curse]25‬ KJV)

It's assumed based off multiple meaning versus your Misinterpreting.

 

[Light hearted]

These are all multiple meaning versus Give me clarity! One clear statement that has one meaning! Like this one For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]18-19‬ KJV)

hmw, thanks for checking in, I always appreciate when you post.

lori milne, I'm sure hmw will have more on this, but since the verse you posted is so often posted I must say my say.

We as Christians totally agree with your verse above, the Law is still very much intact, it has not changed what so ever. The problem is with mankind, many will read the law and begin to compare their life to the law, of which then say to themselves, hmmm, I haven't broken all of them, I'm ok.

For the average person, of which you might have the same thought, by focusing on the law and comparing yourself to it, you try to find your righteousness through the law, continuously focusing on your sins. In God's eyes, your trying to bring His perfection down to earthly standards.

The law was to break man's stubborn spirit, it was to show their faults.
Romans 3:20 Not one person can have God’s approval by any effort to follow the laws in the Scriptures. These laws show what "sin" is

True Christians have looked at the law, realized God's absolute perfection and by finding our righteousness through Jesus Christ, He who has fulfilled the law, we actually have more respect for the law that those who continue to focus on the law. Instead of trying to bring God's perfect standards down to earth, we are raised in Christ to meet His perfect Heavenly standards.

Romans 3:31 Are we abolishing the laws in the Scriptures by this faith? That’s unthinkable! Rather, we are supporting these laws.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

The word "establish" has nothing to do with getting rid of, it means to hold firm. By our faith we show the respect to something ever lasting.

Hope this helps, so often we see things from a earthly view, when we need to see things from a Godly view. Jim

 

[lori milne]

hmw, thanks for checking in, I always appreciate when you post. lori milne, I'm sure hmw will have more on this, but since the verse you posted is so often posted I must say my say. We as Christians totally agree with your verse above, the Law is still very much intact, it has not changed what so ever. The problem is with mankind, many will read the law and begin to compare their life to the law, of which then say to themselves, hmmm, I haven't broken all of them, I'm ok. For the average person, of which you might have the same thought, by focusing on the law and comparing yourself to it, you try to find your righteousness through the law, continuously focusing on your sins. In God's eyes, your trying to bring His perfection down to earthly standards. The law was to break man's stubborn spirit, it was to show their faults. Romans 3:20 Not one person can have God’s approval by any effort to follow the laws in the Scriptures. These laws show what "sin" is True Christians have looked at the law, realized God's absolute perfection and by finding our righteousness through Jesus Christ, He who has fulfilled the law, we actually have more respect for the law that those who continue to focus on the law. Instead of trying to bring God's perfect standards down to earth, we are raised in Christ to meet His perfect Heavenly standards. Romans 3:31 Are we abolishing the laws in the Scriptures by this faith? That’s unthinkable! Rather, we are supporting these laws. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. The word "establish" has nothing to do with getting rid of, it means to hold firm. By our faith we show the respect to something ever lasting. Hope this helps, so often we see things from a earthly view, when we need to see things from a Godly view. Jim

Amen
I truly do agree with that
I see a lot of sin freely cards and don't understand them.
These free to sin cards almost tore my family apart.
Freed from sin vs free to sin.
I know we can't be sin free with the law
Or by any works we do without Christ!
Christ gives us more then sin can ever give us.
We can choose freely him and not thirst for sin!

 

[Viren]

There are several people on the boards recently who seem to think that salvation is by the perfect or at least the near perfect keeping of the law. They are well-meaning people but are mistaken. If you read the new testament carefully, you will see that Jesus was more against people like that than any other group. He taught that prostitutes will get into heaven before the religious moralists.

Have you not heard of the Pharisees? The Pharisees were the group in Christ's time who believed that other people were all lost because they didn't keep the commandments well enough, but that they themselves were going to heaven because they were so faithful to the laws of God. Jesus absolutely despised the Pharisees.

Remember the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector? The Pharisee stood and prayed and said God I thank you that I am not like others. I fast and tithe and don't commit adultery etc. But the tax collector simply said God have mercy on me a sinner. Jesus said that the tax collector went home justified rather than the Pharisee.

What people don't understand is that most of what Jesus taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke was not the gospel. Jesus spent most of the time in those books explaining the how strict the LAW is so that the Pharisees would hopefully realize that they couldn't keep it and turn to Him for mercy instead.

When the rich young ruler asked Jesus to tell Him what good thing He could DO to obtain eternal life... Jesus wanted to destroy his trust in salvation by lawkeeping. So Jesus told him to keep the commandments.... especially not coveting (Jesus showed him that he wasn't keeping this one by challenging him to give up his posessions) and putting no other gods before God (Jesus showed him that he wasn't keeping this one by challenging him to leave everything and follow him). The Rich Young Ruler wouldn't do those things and so Jesus proved to Him that He wasn't really keeping the laws like He imagined he was. Jesus never told the young man the Gospel... he preached the LAW to him. Jesus was just showing the young man that He was failing to keep the law.

If you want to learn the GOSPEL read the book of John. That book was specifically written to explain how to receive eternal life. So was the book of Romans.

The word "gospel' is not in the greek in the titles of matthew mark and lukes' book. The greek does not say "the gospel according to Matthew' the greek only says "according to Matthew". same with the others. That is because they mostly are just the teachings of Jesus about the Kingdom of God and about the Law. John reveals the gospel.

Most of the Gospels are like that.... they teach us how strict the law is so that we will realize that we aren't keeping it and will quit trusting it for salvation and will look to Jesus' sacrifice at the cross to pay for our sins and redeem us.

The sermon on the mount was given to show people that if they want to be saved by the law then they are going to have to be absolutely perfect. If you want to be saved by the law... you not only must not commit adultery, you must not ever lust...even once. You must not only avoid murder... you must never be angry without cause even once. You must never speak even one idle word in your life. You must be perfect ... as much as the Father is perfect. If you mess up even once you cannot ever be saved.

The only other choice is the Gospel. The Gospel isn't the law. It is completely different. The Gospel is the GOOD NEWS that even though you are a worthless sinner who's righteousness is as a filthy rag in God's sight, nevertheless Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for all our sins and so we can be completely forgiven. Those who will quit trying to be saved by their morality and will instead trust Jesus to save them will be saved. Those who are trying to be saved by their attempts to keep the law will be lost.

The problem with many people is that they are filled with pride. In their arrogance they believe that others will not make it to heaven because they are so sinful but that they will make it because they are so zealous and committed to the morality Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount. Really they are just modern day Pharisees... and prostitutes will get into heaven before they do.

I realize that after a person is saved the Holy Spirit will enter them and help them live a more godly life... but that is the RESULT of Salvation not the cause of it. The way to be saved is by faith alone.

Awesome post.

 

[lori milne]

Awesome post.

I don't think we have to be perfect to go to heaven
I think we have to trust in Jesus promise to be able to turn from sin.
You can't be in the spirit of your In the flesh.
And you can't " sin if your in the spirit !

Jesus tells us we will thirst No more

 

[BryanW92]

I don't think we have to be perfect to go to heaven
I think we have to trust in Jesus promise to be able to turn from sin.
You can't be in the spirit of your In the flesh.
And you can't " sin if your in the spirit !

Jesus tells us we will thirst No more

Jesus also says, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Has anyone ever perfectly turned from sin? The only acceptable standard is perfection. Who is perfect?

Only one is perfect and he imputes his perfect life to us so that we may present that to the Father. Even if you are "almost perfect", it is nothing to God. You tried....and you failed. 99% success is still 1% failure and 0% failure is the standard.

 

[lori milne]

Jesus also says, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Has anyone ever perfectly turned from sin? The only acceptable standard is perfection. Who is perfect? Only one is perfect and he imputes his perfect life to us so that we may present that to the Father. Even if you are "almost perfect", it is nothing to God. You tried....and you failed. 99% success is still 1% failure and 0% failure is the standard.

Then you don't believe in what jesus said about Faith

But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? And when they were come into the ship, the wind Matt 14:31-32
Also
Jesus gives us forgiveness when we ask and repent! This After salvation!and we are yet again spot less

Also you can't take His forgiveness for granted

And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Matt 25:2-4,6-12
KJV

 

[hmw]

With our works there is no grace

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ([bless and do not curse]James‬ [bless and do not curse]2‬:[bless and do not curse]14, 17-18‬ KJV)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Works and grace and faith all work together there is portion of the word

True, faith without works is dead, as James 2 says.

But you misunderstand what type of works shows our faith. You have been taught error that works of the law shows our faith. In fact works of the law shows that we do not have faith. If we determine one's righteousness and salvation by how well they're obeying the law then by these works of the law we show that we deny God (Tit 1:16).

Remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Gal 2:16

So what works do show our faith?

Jesus was asked what works we should do and he answered that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.

And how are these works seen?

Consider the example in James 2:14-17

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Here the example is of feeding the hungry and clothing the naked as examples of works that show one's faith.

But we all know that there are non-Christians who also help the needy in like manner. Thus these physical works are hardly works that shows our faith when non-believers do them to.

So what works are these examples given in James 2?
Remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14. Look to the spiritual view, instead.

Who are the hungry that James 2 refers to?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.

1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Who are the naked that James 2 refers to?
It's the lost, the spiritually naked who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

As Christians who do the works of believing on Jesus (John 6:29) we let our light (Christ in us) shine, preaching the gospel of Christ to the lost, the spiritually hungry and the spiritually naked.

Matt 5:14-16
You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Explain this verse for me if all sins are forgiven current and future.
It's not supported In the bible

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; ([bless and do not curse]Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]3‬:[bless and do not curse]25‬ KJV)

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
And our old imperfect physical body is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

Our identity is now in Christ.
And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

So once we become a Christian what sin can we be charged with?
There is no sin that can be charged against a Christian.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4) as we're not under the law for righteousness (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

WE cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17) as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

As long as we continue to believe on Jesus, then we're covered by his righteousness/holiness/sinlessness.

So yes, Rom 3:25 says that only PAST sin was remitted at the cross. And that is because once we become a Christians there is no sin that Satan (the accuser, Rev 12:9-11) can charge against those whose life is hid with Christ. To say that a Christians sins is like saying that there is sin in Christ.
1John 3:5 says that there is no sin in Christ.

 

[hmw]

These are all multiple meaning versus Give me clarity! One clear statement that has one meaning! Like this one For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]18-19‬ KJV)

The law is just, good and holy, Rom 7:12.
So nobody is throwing out the law.


Consider Rev 20:12-15, as it shows how the law is used in judgement at the end.
Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books (the books of the law) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life (the book of life is Christ Jesus): and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (of the law), according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here we see the 2 covenants.
Those who believed on Jesus were saved by grace and were covered by the robes of righteousness. They were not cast into the lake of fire as they were found in the book of life who is Jesus Christ.

But those who did not believe on Jesus (such as legalists who preach works of the law), they were judged under the law. Such will be thrown into the lake of fire as they all failed to obey the law PERFECTLY, as it requires, James 2:10.

So Christians do not reject the law. It is the principles of God.
And we acknowledged that we were sinners deserving of the law's death penalty. Thus we sought God's mercy. We're now saved by grace.

So it all comes down to which covenant are you going to choose.
2Cor 3:7-11

But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones (the 10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

If you choose righteousness by works of the law, then you will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20,

But if you believe on Jesus, you 'll be found in the book of life and no sin can be charged against you (Rom 8:33).

 

[lori milne]

The law is just, good and holy, Rom 7:12. So nobody is throwing out the law. Consider Rev 20:12-15, as it shows how the law is used in judgement at the end. Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books (the books of the law) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life (the book of life is Christ Jesus):
That's your assumption.

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (of the law), according to their works.
According the their works is pretty clear!

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here we see the 2 covenants. Those who believed on Jesus were saved by grace and were covered by the robes of righteousness.
Again assumed

They were not cast into the lake of fire as they were found in the book of life who is Jesus Christ. Assumed

But those who did not believe on Jesus (such as legalists who preach works of the law), they were judged under the law. Such will be thrown into the lake of fire as they all failed to obey the law PERFECTLY, as it requires,

Yes if you are Jewish and don't believe in Jesus!
But that isn't what I'm referring to again.
Your meanings are off!

James 2:10. So Christians do not reject the law. It is the principles of God.

It wasn't written to the Christians but the Jews once again they are the ones who struggled with falling back to the Law.

And we acknowledged that we were sinners deserving of the law's death penalty.
This is Meant for people With out CHRIST. I have CHRIST so again wrong example misinterpreted.

Thus we sought God's mercy. We're now saved by grace.

Saved by grace is only used 2 in the New Testament! 2 times is week. How do base such a huge theology to freely sin with convention I only 2 versus in the bible. Scary really!


So it all comes down to which covenant are you going to choose. 2Cor 3:7-11 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones (the 10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. If you choose righteousness by works of the law, then you will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20, But if you believe on Jesus, you 'll be found in the book of life and no sin can be charged against you (Rom 8:33).

Yes believe in Jesus that he can free me from sin! Not free me to sin!
He replaces my desire to sin as he clearly promises
Faith is how he explained to believe you can live with out sin!
Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect!
If this isn't true then all that's in the bible is a contradiction to what you think it says
I don't think that's true

 

[hmw]

Yes believe in Jesus that he can free me from sin! Not free me to sin!
He replaces my desire to sin as he clearly promises
Faith is how he explained to believe you can live with out sin!
Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect!
If this isn't true then all that's in the bible is a contradiction to what you think it says
I don't think that's true

I suspect you're following a doctrine that mixes works of the law, with grace.
God says we cannot mix works with grace, Rom 11:6.

Under the error doctrine you follow, Satan (the accuser, Rev 12) continues to charge people with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness. Hence we see your focus is always upon works of the law for righteousness and salvation.

You only claim that Jesus "can free" us from sin. In other words you claim that Christians are not clean or free from sin unless they obey the law PERFECTLY. The error doctrine you follow calls unclean what God has cleansed.

But those under grace cannot be charged with ANY THING, which includes sin, Rom 8:33.

The cross totally freed Christians from sin (Rom 6:7, John 8:36). As soon as we receive Jesus there is no more sin that can be charged against us (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9).

This is not saying we're physically perfect. Instead it refers to our position in Christ as believers.

Lori, I've heard this doctrine you preach here, before, and I suggest you leave that church that is leading you astray with such false doctrine.

Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Gal 3:1-3
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish?

Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Matt 16:11-12
How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.