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So the difference is the profession of belief in God-like powers or authority. Can we narrow this down a little more? Which powers and authority are proper only to God? We could probably agree on eternal salvation/life.
How do you pray that is significantly unique and sacred? How do other people communicate their prayer request to you?
Can we at least agree that prayer and worship are different?
Then if prayer and worship are different, then what about prayer makes it exclusively directed toward God? In it's essence, what is prayer to you?
God is not diminished by anything you can do or say. That is a fundamental truth which must be grasped. And nobody that I have ever met prays to Mary (or a doctor) as God or believes that Mary (or a doctor) is God.
Prayer to God is, among other things, ascribing to Him things that are uniquely His and His alone. Among those things is the ability to save people. It is absurd for me to ask anyone other than God to save me.
Now, the standard response is that "save" really doesn't mean "save" in the spiritual sense of eternal salvation in heaven, but really means something like deliverance or help. This definition is secondary so that if I couch my prayer in terminology where I address God as the One who possesses eternal splendor and glory, then it is evident that when I ask for salvation, that I am not merely asking for help to get along better in life.
What we have in this hymn is a human, now deceased, who is being asked to do things in her own power which she is quite incapable of doing.
which are?
When Cornelius prostrated himself before Peter, Peter rebuked him (Acts 10:25,26). Cornelius could have easily explained his actions as being merely veneration or gratitude, but he did not.
Likewise when John fell down to worship the angel in Revelation 19:10 he was told not to do that. I am quite certain that John knew that God only was to be worshipped and that he could very simply have viewed his action as being one of reverence, but it was not.
It seems like most people have a relatively easy time distinguishing meaning based on context - there are hundred of words in English that have multiple meanings and they are rarely confused. I don't see why this case should be THE exception.
"Her own power" is an interesting phrase - do we really have our own power? I suppose humanists and pagans might say so, but do Christians? Any "power" I have is from God.
According to Chrysostom, Peter refused this due to humility....not as a sign Cornelius was doing something wrong.
John's status was changed and he no longer needed to bow down to angels. This has nothing to do with the appearance of worship.
I really think to some (not all), the "debate" is more important than the "substance". You have been told the truth, but to accept the truth means no more debate and one less anti-Catholic agenda item.
So, if Peter had not assumed the guise of humility, then Cornelius' prostration, which was considered to be an act of worship, would have been just fine with God? And John's act of worship to the angel would have also been perfectly acceptable to God? There is no doubt that bowing and prostrating oneself was an act of worship in the Bible and within that culture. Otherwise, why were Christians martyred for refusing to bow to Caesar?
PossiblyIf I bowed down to my doctor and told him that he was most glorious and blessed among people and then asked him to save me, granting me a place in heaven among the blessed, I would be committed to a lunatic asylum.
Probably a routine comment on OBOB, but a technique for backing out of discussions here.You have been told the truth, but to accept the truth means no more debate and one less anti-Catholic agenda item.
Probably a routine comment on OBOB, but a technique for backing out of discussions here.
Calling it like it is. It's like a broken record.....most on your side though
You may have missed the bigger point. It's no good trying to have a discussion with someone who insists, as a condition of participating, that he be considered correct in all things, at all time.
. So I won't try.
Much of the tradition behind these hymns seem clearly traceable to devotians that were given in honor of the marytred mother, her 7 sons, & Eleazar the priest in the Maccabean wars. This account is in 2 Maccabees 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+7&version=DRA
In fact these martyrs are commemorated at the beginning of the Dormition/Assumption fasts in the Orthodox & Catholic churches. These martyrs were highly commemorated among the diaspora Jews shortly before Christ and the evidence clearly shows in the extended homily called the 4th Book of Maccabees an excerpt from chapter 17:
4 Maccabees 17 Common English Bible (CEB)
17 Some of the guards reported that, just as they were about to grab the mother and put her to death as well, she threw herself into the fire before anyone could touch her body.
2 Mother, together with your seven sons, you made the tyrants violence look like nothing! You defeated his evil plans, and displayed dignity and bravery by your faithfulness. 3 You were set with honor like a roof on top of seven pillars, your sons. You held them firm without moving as you endured the earthquake of their torture. 4 So therefore be confident, holy-minded mother! Keep firm that hope in God that fueled your endurance. 5 The moon that is in heaven with the stars is not as royal as you. You lit the path of respect for God for your seven sons who are like stars, and you now stand in front of God in honor, firmly set in heaven along with them. 6 Your sons were true descendants of our father Abraham! 7 If we had the skill of an artist to paint a picture showing the story of your commitment to God, wouldnt those who viewed the painting tremble to see a mother enduring the experience of seven children being tortured to death in so many ways?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=4 Maccabees 17&version=CEB
There are many laypersons in both churches who believe that the woman of the apocalypse in Revelation 12 is the Theotokos & Ever Virgin Mother.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+12&version=KJV
The language of both accounts & the honor to both of these mothers and their children include the worship & honor of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You may have missed the bigger point. It's no good trying to have a discussion with someone who insists, as a condition of participating, that he be considered correct in all things, at all times, and won't hear of another POV. So I won't try.
I doubt that any of us on this thread would be upset by a hymn extolling the virtues of Mary as they are shown to us through the Bible.
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