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It's all about God; Mary being his creature and her honours are honours given to God for the grace he has given to the whole world because Mary said yes and Jesus was born of the Virgin.So all in all, it seems that there is a mixed view. Some say it is unbiblical, while some say it's simply a mix of honor to the Trinity and Mary.
So all in all, it seems that there is a mixed view. Some say it is unbiblical, while some say it's simply a mix of honor to the Trinity and Mary.
That seems fair to say...but the wording used in that particular hymn can hardly be passed off as nothing more than honoring Mary.
If the question had been about Marian devotions in general ,or whether or not Mary is deserving of honor, or even if her place in history demands exceptional respect from us Christians, this thread would have unfolded entirely differently.
As it is, the thread has seen an attempt of the "negative" side of the debate to strike down even the mildest of objections to Marian devotional practices when we are considering a flagrant example of such things gone to an extreme.
This is unfortunate, to say the least, i.e. that it is impossible to discuss even a single example of what might be a valid religious practice except for it being taken too far. We are left to wonder if there is no level, no exaggeration, no distortion that the defenders of this practice would draw the line at? Is there nothing that they could bring themselves to agree is more than just "honoring?"
Quite true. When is it possible for adherents to Marian devotion to admit that it has passed from mere devotion to outright worship of a divine being who is able and willing to dispense salvation?
I understand Protestants being perplexed towards devotions like this and pro & con attitudes have run to extremes for generations. I believe a healthy faith is to understand these as praise that enhances our faith in our savior. There are some Christians today who do not even believe that Jesus Christ is God but those of us who have revered His mother have always held the faith in the Lord the Word who became flesh, lived, died on the cross for sins, who descended into hades, was resurrected, ascended & sits at the right hand of the Father.
If you've read the posts in this thread, you've seen that the Protestants here are not in the least perplexed about it. They've laid out their case with specifics, quotations, and explanations. They're not at all in doubt about it.I understand Protestants being perplexed towards devotions like this
Of course, that is the defense that is always given when evidence of the worship of Mary is presented. That doesn't make the claim that it's just "praise" to attribute God-like powers to a saint any more credible.I believe a healthy faith is to understand these as praise that enhances our faith in our savior.
Does the existence of some Christians who do not believe that Jesus is God change anything about this hymn? Well, no. And neither does the attempt to pass off the sentiments expressed in the hymn as mere reverence ring any truer than words like "honor" and "praise."There are some Christians today who do not even believe that Jesus Christ is God but those of us who have revered His mother have always held the faith in the Lord the Word who became flesh, lived, died on the cross for sins, who descended into hades, was resurrected, ascended & sits at the right hand of the Father.
Have you placed your faith in Mary to the point that you have asked her to grant you salvation?
Of course not. I feel that you're taking a simple wording concern and running with it to the point to where it sounds like we place Mary in the place of Jesus.
As much as it seems there has been focus more so on the theory aspect of showing the importance of Mary, I think what can make a difference is when there's demonstration on the pratical impact on why Mary is important.It's all about God; Mary being his creature and her honours are honours given to God for the grace he has given to the whole world because Mary said yes and Jesus was born of the Virgin.
Gxg (G²);66253740 said:As much as it seems there has been focus more so on the theory aspect of showing the importance of Mary, I think what can make a difference is when there's demonstration on the pratical impact on why Mary is important.
For an excellent study and review on the matter, one can go to the following:
Actually, no one has ever said that Mary was Omnipotence or omnipresence- and thus, practically, you missed entirely what others were about when it came to Mary. Please Don't put words in the mouths of others when they are speaking (nor speak on issues without investigation since the article itself never came close to advocating anything you said) - nor do people believe Mary is who gives salvation (as others already addressed earlier if one was paying attention).Yes, when the rubber meets the road with Mary, the practical application is to treat her as a divine being having many of the attributes of God such as omnipresence and omnipotence.
Devotees pray to her, not merely to ask her to intercede for them with God, but directly. They praise her, worship her, adore her, and request many things from her including salvation even as the words of the hymn in question make quite clear.
And in other passages we see that other people "save" other people (e.g., Paul), and that *we* "save" other people (e.g., James). Thus, scripturally, there is a sense in which it is only appropriate to say that God saves us, and there is another sense in which it is appropriate to say that humans save other humans. Our hymns and prayers, like the Scriptures, make regular use of both. And when placed in context, we understand the difference.When you address Mary, she will know. Much like sending an email over the digital world, praying is sending a message to someone through the spiritual realm. That's not to say she's necessarily aware what you had for breakfast three weeks ago, or how long you're destined to wait in line at the grocery store.
Given deification (theosis), however, you could very well construct an argument for her being omniscient. She, along with hundreds of other saints, are one with God while retaining their identities. It's possible she can continually feed from God's knowledge.My personal opinion is that many of the poetic, hyperbolic and metaphoric hymns & prayers about Mary have been twisted out of context to some degree. IMHO, some of the earliest language surrounding Mary used her as a personification of the body of believers - the Church or the Mother of the Church. This was very common for a strong female figure to represent a group in literature. Over time, these metaphors became taken more literally and have caused confusion.It is neither blasphemous nor heretical because it is a prise and an appeal to Mary the mother of our Lord and it is not based on Mary's own merits but on the graces given to her by God in union with Jesus Christ her son. God is the source of all the graces that a Christian receives and if the conduit through which a particular grace comes is Blessed Mary that is all to the praise of God.[/QUOTE
Gxg (G²);66180573 said:Mary being appealed to is no more blasphemous than noting that all are connected together via Father Abraham and the Patriarchs (Romans 4:16, Romans 11:28)
There are other places which I'm glad for that are helping others in the Protestant world realize the importance of Mary:
And on the hymn itself, it is truly beautiful ( Small Paraklesis to the Most Holy Theotokos )
Coptic Orthodox Hymn: The Virgin M.A.R.Y العدرا م ر ي م (English Subtitles) - YouTube
Foreshadow of the Theotokos in the Old Testament - Manna Nikshepita Cheppum - YouTube
Orthodoxy 101 - The Virgin Mary and the Saints - YouTubeGxg (G²);60927819 said:Catholics overall for anyone interacting with them have made repeatedly clear that they do not worship Mary...and giving her titles with high relevance do not mean they are trying to still worship her. The scriptures already note that we're to hold saints in esteem because they are such wonderful images or mirrors of Christ. ..and Paul several times exhorts his readers to be imitators of him: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor 11:1, also Phil 3:17, 1 Cor 4:16). As plenty have noted, Mary is the first saint, and holds high honor today, as she did in the early Church. Over the course of history, devotion to Mary has taken many forms, and even has been confused with worship. Church teaching has consistently placed Mary in the company of the saints, however. Devotion to the saints comes back to the theology of image: Christ is God's image, the saints are Christ's image. We honor them because we desire to imitate them. ..as they imitate Christ.
For good places of information:
Gxg (G²);60914336 said:To come to the point of worshipping Mary is never appropriate. Nonetheless, to honor her for her unique role and the way the Lord honored her in working through her is within what the Word says. The scriptures never make a case at all that all believers throughout Biblical history are to receive the same level of honor and it's a strawman to argue such (as well as inconsistent) when seeing the ways such has already occurred....be it in the ways scripture notes plainly it was the Lord who worked to preserve his people and He did so on behalf of the Patriarchs (Abraham most notably, Romans 9 and Romans 11, called the "Father of Our Faith" in Romans 3:27-4:25, etc) or with the Apostles themselves who were in positions of rulership in the times to come/sitting on their thrones given by the Lord himself ( Luke 22:29-31/Matthew 19:27-29 ).
In our times, it often seems people fail to understand the Eastern concept of honor.....and that when the Lord honors someone and notes where they hold a great position, that is how he sees it. In regards to Mary, what she did was extremely unique and thus there will always be an extreme degree of honor...just as the angel Gabriel honored Mary in calling her highly favored and she noted of herself that ALL men would proclaim her as blessed. Scripture must go in context---including Philippians 2 that was quoted since it was not divorced from the Jewish cultural heritage of honoring others in unique ways (as if humility is meant to keep that out)...for just as Christ was crowed KING OF KINGS/Lord of Lords through His actions ( Revelation 1:4-6 ), so is Mary highly exalted for her work....both in giving birth to the Messiah, caring for Him and raising Him in the ways of the Lord as a good parent.
According to St. Irenaeus, the Blessed Virgin helped in the process of our salvation:
"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise "they were both naked, and were not ashamed," inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race" (Against the Heresies III:22:4).
For that, she will always be honored - but that has little to do with assuming she's on the same level as Christ.
As other Orthodox have noted:
Orthodox believe that the Virgin Mary needed to be redeemed from sin with the rest of mankind and that Redemption comes solely through the Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross, that is through God. The work of Redemption cannot in any way be that of a creature but solely comes from the Creator.
....I don't think the Blessed Virgin Mary would appreciate her being elevated to the same or close to the level of her Son. I'm sure she is more humble than that even in heaven. She plays a pivotal role in asking our Lord to bestow graces but bestowing graces of her own accord - I don't think so. I do think she can influence her Son though (witnessed the changing of water to wine at Canaan.) Can she dispense grace? Not without the Son. Does she dispense grace. I'm sure that with the Son she may have.
People who bow before Mary are not worshiping Mary - people often forget that veneration was about honor--and bowing down was something even the people of God did when honoring others ( Genesis 18:1-3, Genesis 23:6-13 Genesis 33:2-4 Genesis 48:11-13 , Exodus 18:6-8 , Ruth 2:9-11 , 1 Samuel 20:40-42 1 Samuel 24:7-9 1 Samuel 25:22-24 , 2 Samuel 9:5-7 2 Samuel 18:27-29 2 Samuel 24:19-21 1 Kings 1:15-17 1 Kings 1:30-32 , etc). For those bowing down in remembrance of others who went before us, just as people bow their heads at a funeral or when seeing a picture of a departed love one out of respect.
If something glorious is bowed to in order to worship it apart from the Lord, that's another issue. John in Revelation had that temptation with the angel teaching him and was warned against it ( Revelation 19:1-15 )
But worship is not ...and HAS not ever been the goal.
It is often assumed that because there is devotion to other saints or leaders that there's somehow a level of "worship" involved....and that is no more logical than claiming that the apostles are worshipped because their words were authorative/they had the power to forgive sins ( John 20:22-24 / John 20 ), even though it was said to Christ "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Luke 5:19-21 / Luke 5:23-25 ). The same as it concerns the ways others were honored throughout the scripture due to their position....and honoring them via bowing/remembrance of what they do. The issue of praying to saints is not something that is in/of itself ever expressely forbidden in the scriptures anymore than praying with one another/confessing sins to one another ...more shared on that elsewhere in the thread entitled What sin leads unto death? Can we pray for others to be forgiven?
Gxg (G²);66258770 said:Actually, no one has ever said that Mary was Omnipotence.
And we can avoid the issue all day - but the bottom line is that it is foolish putting words in the mouths of others when ignoring the context of scripture, the context of what others have said and skipping past the meaning of words. That is ignorance - in the same way it'd be ignorant for one to claim the apostles were "worthy of worship" because they were given the authority to forgive sins in John 20 (even though it was said to Christ "Who can forgive sins but God alone?!" when working with the man lowered through the roof).Look, we can skirt the issue all day, but the wording in that hymn (any many prayers that are similar to it) attribute Godly powers to Mary.
.
Seeing that no one but God alone knows the hearts of others, it doesn't matter what others think on the issue - and thus, when others already note they do not worship anyone but God, there are zero excuses as to why others cannot be sensible in leaving the issue alone instead of claiming "Well, you're making others think you're doing this" - if people say "We don't worship when we say this", that's the end of it and all further accusations need to be dropped. The bottom line is people need to get over it and move on instead of insisting others use langauge the way they think is right.That said, there are a million excuses about why what's in the hearts of those singing it is different or that they don't mean what they say
Seeing that every criticism made on the issue of the lyrics already divorces itself directly from the Church of Antiquity. This is a huge battle that Reformed Churches have long had to deal with when it comes to seeing divorcing the practices of what the Early Church and Councils said on issues from the language used by others. When one ignores the practices done to give illustration to the language/symbolism used by people, you end up with making the language mean anything you want it to mean - and thus, begin accusing instead of seeing what others actually said., etc. etc. but the criticism over approaching Mary and thinking of Mary in the terms stated in those lyrics is reasonable. This is one of those things that separates the reformed churches from the unreformed churches, just like Scripture Alone vs. Tradition or Faith vs. Works,
No one said or assumed that either side cares to change because of a post - that was never in view for anyone when they posted something in agreement with others that made a point. If someone chooses to post something and others agree with it, that's all there is to it - and seeing where others with a differing view than a post actually did change views as has occurred before, it's not even accurate claiming things don't change because of what someone posts.and neither side is going to be changing its views because of a post on CF
No one's done that. The lyrics were presented, quoted, right up front; and no Catholic has denied that they are genuine.Gxg (G²);66259003 said:And we can avoid the issue all day - but the bottom line is that it is foolish putting words in the mouths of others
That's true, but it wasn't my point that anyone had said or assumed as much. The fact is, though, that we fall into debating these things as though that's going to happen.No one said or assumed that either side cares to change because of a post
No one's done that. The lyrics were presented, quoted, right up front; and no Catholic has denied that they are genuine.
Those particular kinds of phrases were the things I could not sing, I skipped those prayers, etc. The abbreviated form sounds very controversial, taken at face value. I understand hesitation or complete refusal on the part of one who only hears and considers those parts.
I've looked at a lot of the hymns, and what strikes me is that one moment I will think something is being stated about or asked of the Theotokos that ought not be ... then in the next line I will realize that the focus has shifted to Christ, or the Father.
The hymns in our Church continually refocus on Christ. Continually.
Another thing I found interesting, since the liturgy today was for the Dormition, the Gospel reading was the passage where Jesus refutes the blessing pronounced on Mary and says "These are my mother and brothers" - the ones who hear the Word of God and do it.
That struck me as an odd choice for a feast day devoted to the Theotokos. But then I heard a priest later today say that ALL of the Marian feasts have this as the Gospel reading, for precisely the reason of reminding us NOT to place even the Theotokos in a position reserved only for God - we do not worship her.Indeed, these hymns and prayers will often bounce back and forth. I agree with you especially with your last point.
"We" is not collective, of course. For many don't go into discussion assuming people are going to change because of a post and yet they are also open to listening, discussion and knowing that people can be changed...with possibility that it may happen. This has happened several times before in discussions - and others have noted that before. I'm glad for other Orthodox who did such when I was investigating things and hearing both sides.That's true, but it wasn't my point that anyone had said or assumed as much. The fact is, though, that we fall into debating these things as though that's going to happen.
Seeing that the majority of the Church is never "some people" anymore than it was "some people" who felt Mary was the "Mother of God" at the Council of Ephesus and many other hymns celebrating/praising her in the SAME manner as the hymn of the OP.I'm always just a little bit shocked when people argue that something or other religious is right...because some people in the first five centuries of Christian history thought so.
Nothing about God's word, of course, but what this or that "Early Church Father" might have commented at one time or another.
Doesn't that ever strike any Catholic debater as helpful, interesting, or something...BUT NOT the final word??
That's neat the way you changed the subject there from what some individuals might have said to what a council found...and from the lyrics in this hymn to something much more benign, like Mary being the Mother of God which I not only didn't mention but don't have any problem with.Gxg (G²);66259829 said:Seeing that the majority of the Church is never "some people" anymore than it was "some people" who felt Mary was the "Mother of God" at the Council of Ephesus and many other hymns celebrating/praising her in the SAME manner as the hymn of the OP.
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