• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Hymns like this?

George95

CF Tech Master
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Community Manager
Site Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
18,998
2,031
30
✟1,562,686.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
This is just a few sections of the Small Paraklesis to the Theotokos(Virgin Mary), and I know that some feel that hymns like these are either Unbiblical or even Blasphemous to some extent. I've always wondered about this, and felt that General Theology would be the best place to get thoughts and opinions.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

Assaults of the passions have shaken me,
My soul to its limits
Has been filled with much despair;
Bring peace, O Maiden, in the calmness,
Of your own Son and your God, all‑blameless One.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

To God and the Savior you've given birth;
I ask you, O Virgin,
From the dangers deliver me;
For now I run to you for refuge,
With both my soul and my reasoning.

Now and forever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

Diseased is the body and the soul;
Deem me truly worthy
Of divine guidance and your care;
For you alone are God's Mother,
As the good and the birthgiver of the Good.

----------

O Lord, I have heard of
the wondrous mystery of Your salvation;
I have contemplated all Your works
And I have glorified Your great divinity.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

Still the darkest of passions,
Calm the sea of errors
In your great peacefulness;
It was you who bore the guiding Lord,
And you who are the blessed bride of God.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

Your depth of compassion
Grant unto me
As one beseeching you;
You have carried the Compassionate
The Savior of those praising you.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit[bless and do not curse]

We are thankful for all the gifts
Which we have been given
by you the Spotless One;
And to you, we sing a hymn of praise,
Knowing you to be the Mother of God.

Now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

As a hope and foundation,
And a wall unshaken
Of our salvation;
Having you, the all‑lauded One,
From afflictions do you rescue us.
 

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This is just a few sections of the Small Paraklesis to the Theotokos(Virgin Mary), and I know that some feel that hymns like these are either Unbiblical or even Blasphemous to some extent. I've always wondered about this, and felt that General Theology would be the best place to get thoughts and opinions.

Blasphemy is a term I would be very reluctant to accuse anyone of, but the lyrics are certainly unbiblical. More than that, they surely put the lie to the claim we so often hear...that prayers to Mary are just requests for her intercession and no different from asking one's next door neighbor to pray for them.
 
Upvote 0

South Bound

I stand with Israel.
Jan 3, 2014
4,443
1,034
✟46,159.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Blasphemy is a term I would be very reluctant to accuse anyone of, but the lyrics are certainly unbiblical. More than that, they surely put the lie to the claim we so often hear...that prayers to Mary are just requests for her intercession and no different from asking one's next door neighbor to pray for them.

I'm not sure it's not blasphemous and heretical. It ascribes characteristics and roles to Mary that the Bible says belong to Christ.

(Please note, moderators, that I am in no way stating that Catholics or Orthodox are not Christians, merely disagreeing with the theology expressed in this hymn.)
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
It is neither blasphemous nor heretical because it is a prise and an appeal to Mary the mother of our Lord and it is not based on Mary's own merits but on the graces given to her by God in union with Jesus Christ her son. God is the source of all the graces that a Christian receives and if the conduit through which a particular grace comes is Blessed Mary that is all to the praise of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mama Kidogo

Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα
Jan 31, 2014
2,944
307
USA for the time being
✟27,035.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
It is neither blasphemous nor heretical because it is a prise and an appeal to Mary the mother of our Lord and it is not based on Mary's own merits but on the graces given to her by God in union with Jesus Christ her son. God is the source of all the graces that a Christian receives and if the conduit through which a particular grace comes is Blessed Mary that is all to the praise of God.

Indeed. To read more into it than is written is hunting for things that are not there. 'Keep us from harm' seems to be a stumbling block for some. I suppose some actually think prayer can't do that. I don't share that belief.

When I ask anyone to pray for me I don't generally just say pray for me. I tell them what I need prayer for.
 
Upvote 0

GoingByzantine

Seeking the Narrow Road
Site Supporter
Jun 19, 2013
3,304
1,100
✟115,375.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I do not delve much into the supplicatory canon used in the EO and EC churches (in my free time), but the "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is the only part of it that could appear controversial off the top of my head.

When we take the prayers as a whole, you will notice that The Trinity, one in essence and undivided is still very prominent in the prayer. It even starts out:

O Lord, I have heard of
the wondrous mystery of Your salvation;
I have contemplated all Your works
And I have glorified Your great divinity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
If it's the Holy Trinity then why does it say grace comes from the Father, thru the Son and dispensed by Mary like the spirit is a thing and not a person?
God gave his Spirit through the laying on of human hands in Acts chapter eight, was that something reprehensible? No, it is what God chose to do. God gave his Spirit on the day of Pentecost as a sound like a mighty rushing wind and like tongues of fire was that reprehensible? No. Is it reprehensible for God to give his Spirit through the acts of a woman? No, because if God humbled himself to be in the womb of a woman and to be born of a woman then surely he is not ashamed to give his Spirit by means of a woman any more than he is ashamed to give his Spirit by laying on of hands or as a sound like a mighty rushing wind and like tongues of fire.
 
Upvote 0

GoingByzantine

Seeking the Narrow Road
Site Supporter
Jun 19, 2013
3,304
1,100
✟115,375.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
In the Holy Spirit every soul is quickened, and through cleansing is exalted and made radiant by the Triple Unity in a hidden sacred manner.

By the Holy Spirit, the streams of grace gush forth, watering all creation for the begetting of life.
 
Upvote 0

George95

CF Tech Master
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Community Manager
Site Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
18,998
2,031
30
✟1,562,686.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Until I encountered the lyrics of this hymn I was willing to give a pass to the EO on the more extreme aspects of Marian dogma found in Catholicism. Now I see that the differences are really quite minor and both denominations ascribe to Mary powers that can only be understood as attributes of a god(dess).

I wouldn't say that, nor does the Orthodox Church elevate Mary on the pedestal as a goddess. Which part of the hymn specifically caught your eye to make that statement?
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,402
14,528
Vancouver
Visit site
✟465,376.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God gave his Spirit through the laying on of human hands in Acts chapter eight, was that something reprehensible? No, it is what God chose to do. God gave his Spirit on the day of Pentecost as a sound like a mighty rushing wind and like tongues of fire was that reprehensible? No. Is it reprehensible for God to give his Spirit through the acts of a woman? No, because if God humbled himself to be in the womb of a woman and to be born of a woman then surely he is not ashamed to give his Spirit by means of a woman any more than he is ashamed to give his Spirit by laying on of hands or as a sound like a mighty rushing wind and like tongues of fire.
I don't see how one logically follows the other.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,440
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I do not delve much into the supplicatory canon used in the EO and EC churches (in my free time), but the "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is the only part of it that could appear controversial off the top of my head.

Those particular kinds of phrases were the things I could not sing, I skipped those prayers, etc. The abbreviated form sounds very controversial, taken at face value. I understand hesitation or complete refusal on the part of one who only hears and considers those parts.



When we take the prayers as a whole, you will notice that The Trinity, one in essence and undivided is still very prominent in the prayer. It even starts out:

O Lord, I have heard of
the wondrous mystery of Your salvation;
I have contemplated all Your works
And I have glorified Your great divinity.

I've looked at a lot of the hymns, and what strikes me is that one moment I will think something is being stated about or asked of the Theotokos that ought not be ... then in the next line I will realize that the focus has shifted to Christ, or the Father.

The hymns in our Church continually refocus on Christ. Continually.

Another thing I found interesting, since the liturgy today was for the Dormition, the Gospel reading was the passage where Jesus refutes the blessing pronounced on Mary and says "These are my mother and brothers" - the ones who hear the Word of God and do it.

That struck me as an odd choice for a feast day devoted to the Theotokos. But then I heard a priest later today say that ALL of the Marian feasts have this as the Gospel reading, for precisely the reason of reminding us NOT to place even the Theotokos in a position reserved only for God - we do not worship her.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MoreCoffee
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
thanks for the warning ;) I'll have to bring out my Barean armor :p
Only if you wish to become a Jew rather than to remain as you are, a Christian; because, you see, the Beroeans were Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVz6vuNq7s

Ave Maria! Maiden mild!
Listen to a maiden's pleading
from these rocks, stark and wild,
my prayer shall be wafted to thee.
we shall sleep safely till morning,
though men be ever so cruel.
O Maiden, see a maiden's distress,
O Mother, hear a suppliant child.

Ave Maria, undefiled!
When we upon this rock lie down
to slumber, and thy protection covers us,
The hard stone will seem soft to us.
If Thou smilest, the scent of roses will float
Through this murky cavern,
O Mother, hear a child's petition,
O maiden, 'tis a maid that calls!

Ave Maria, Maiden pure,
the demons of the earth and air,
bring forth by thy gracious glance
cannot stay here with us.
we will calmly bow to fate
Since thy holy comfort hovers over us;
Mayest thou be favourably inclined to the maiden,
To the child that pleads for her father!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0

George95

CF Tech Master
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Community Manager
Site Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
18,998
2,031
30
✟1,562,686.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Those particular kinds of phrases were the things I could not sing, I skipped those prayers, etc. The abbreviated form sounds very controversial, taken at face value. I understand hesitation or complete refusal on the part of one who only hears and considers those parts.





I've looked at a lot of the hymns, and what strikes me is that one moment I will think something is being stated about or asked of the Theotokos that ought not be ... then in the next line I will realize that the focus has shifted to Christ, or the Father.

The hymns in our Church continually refocus on Christ. Continually.

Another thing I found interesting, since the liturgy today was for the Dormition, the Gospel reading was the passage where Jesus refutes the blessing pronounced on Mary and says "These are my mother and brothers" - the ones who hear the Word of God and do it.

That struck me as an odd choice for a feast day devoted to the Theotokos. But then I heard a priest later today say that ALL of the Marian feasts have this as the Gospel reading, for precisely the reason of reminding us NOT to place even the Theotokos in a position reserved only for God - we do not worship her.

Indeed, these hymns and prayers will often bounce back and forth. I agree with you especially with your last point. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Our first Gospel was
Luke 11:27-28 As Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, ‘Happy the womb that bore you and the breasts you sucked!’ But he replied, ‘Still happier those who hear the word of God and keep it!’

And after the gospel acclimation came the second gospel
Luke 1:39-56
Mary set out and went as quickly as she could to a town in the hill country of Judah. She went into Zechariah’s house and greeted Elizabeth. Now as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. She gave a loud cry and said, ‘Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord? For the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy. Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.’
And Mary said:
‘My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
and my spirit exults in God my saviour;
because he has looked upon his lowly handmaid.
Yes, from this day forward all generations will call me blessed,
for the Almighty has done great things for me.
Holy is his name,
and his mercy reaches from age to age for those who fear him.
He has shown the power of his arm,
he has routed the proud of heart.
He has pulled down princes from their thrones and exalted the lowly.
The hungry he has filled with good things, the rich sent empty away.
He has come to the help of Israel his servant, mindful of his mercy
– according to the promise he made to our ancestors –
of his mercy to Abraham and to his descendants for ever.’
Mary stayed with Elizabeth about three months and then went back home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry2JXE655L8
 
Upvote 0

George95

CF Tech Master
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Community Manager
Site Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
18,998
2,031
30
✟1,562,686.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I can see where the whole "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" can be controversial, but I'll add this:

Obviously Christ is the only one who can save us. In the Liturgy, you will hear the request of the Theotokos to intercede for us, and I'd say the same would apply to the statement above. Now of course, I probably wouldn't use that wording, but besides that, it's merely the wording with a different meaning.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,440
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I can see where the whole "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" can be controversial, but I'll add this:

Obviously Christ is the only one who can save us. In the Liturgy, you will hear the request of the Theotokos to intercede for us, and I'd say the same would apply to the statement above. Now of course, I probably wouldn't use that wording, but besides that, it's merely the wording with a different meaning.

Yes, as soon as we hear "Theotokos, save us" it is immediately followed in the Divine Liturgy by "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us." (Not only that, but this part is repeated 3 times.)

The first thing anyone needs to understand is that in the Orthodox Church, there is a profound understanding that salvation comes through Christ and Christ alone … were it not for Him trampling down and defeating death, how could anyone have eternal life?

I didn't mean to be argumentative against you. The fact is that of all the things that Protestants are likely to have trouble with in an Orthodox Church, those relating to the Theotokos are probably going to be the most difficult to resolve, and the most difficult to understand. I've heard it suggested more than once not to even try to explain theology relating to the Theotokos to visitors or in any kind of outreach. There really are fairly simple explanations, but most people won't accept them right off. I know that I didn't accept them "just because" someone said so.

And still, LOL, I am tempted to at least try to explain. To people reading here who probably in some cases have already decided not to understand or accept, so what would be the point?

Part of it involves the encompassing love that is a large part of the Orthodox mindset, as I've experienced it. We really do love one another. It's like the saints of the Church - accepting them as beloved family, just as so many in my own Church have become beloved family to me. Think about it, if Mary really was your own mother, and alive, wouldn't you ask her to pray for you? Wouldn't you run to her for help when you had spiritual problems? And of course, we do believe that those who have died are living. And if Mary is the Mother of Christ, who is the Head of the Church, then she is in a sense a spiritual mother available to us all, just as we might be blessed to choose a wise woman from our own congregation to fulfill that role for us.

And if it's the word "save" that's a problem …

what was Paul saying when he claimed that he had "become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some"? (1 Cor 9:22) Did Paul "save" anyone?

Or James 5:19 - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death.

Rom 11:14 - if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Or Jude - And have mercy on some, who are doubting; save others, snatching them out of the fire.

1 Cor 7:16 - For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

Paul did not "save" anyone, nor did the believers who these instructions went to. Once again, we simply know it is Christ who saves, so we don't assign any meaning to these Scriptures that are not intended. But prejudices exist, and misunderstandings are widespread, so it is reasonable that people are "on their guard" … and can be quick to assign a meaning to "Theotokos save us" that is not intended.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0