Husbands Authority

[tall73]

I'm arguing with you because I'm not hearing that from you.

And unless you can present evidence that the text does not mean what it says, or does not apply today, you won't hear it from me.

And saying that people who disregard the text are the means to see if it is correct is completely backwards.

 

[Paidiske]

There's been extensive research done on the attitudes held in common by perpetrators of domestic violence. There are three key attitudes shown to underpin almost all domestic violence:

- Belief in gender hierarchy
- Belief in rigid gender roles
- Acceptance of violence.

To the extent that religious traditions reinforce belief in gender hierarchy, therefore, we reinforce attitudes which have been shown to underpin domestic violence.

It's part of our job as the church to dismantle those attitudes, not entrench them.

 

[tall73]

There's been extensive research done on the attitudes held in common by perpetrators of domestic violence. There are three key attitudes shown to underpin almost all domestic violence:

- Belief in gender hierarchy
- Belief in rigid gender roles
- Acceptance of violence.

To the extent that religious traditions reinforce belief in gender hierarchy, therefore, we reinforce attitudes which have been shown to underpin domestic violence.

It's part of our job as the church to dismantle those attitudes, not entrench them.

Have you done any studies on whether people who love their wife like Christ loves the church (what the text actually says) are committing domestic violence?

Because that is the attitude that the text talks about.

 

[Paidiske]

Why can't they love their wives without demanding submission?

In fact, I'd go so far as to say, if they're demanding submission, they're not loving like Christ. Christ doesn't demand submission.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Well theres the old saying "If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you?". That is to say lets say your husband told you to draw a pentagram on the floor and chant. Would you? Of course not. I will not do what my spouse tells me to do if it's unbiblically. In this case I don't believe in first communion as its a catholic belief. We actually just had friend whos daughter had hers a few days ago. We politely declined and just came to the "birthday party" event they had after for her.

I also believe in mutual submission. Though in the "spiritual" end of things my wife tends to lean on me for that. Which I do think the wife should submit to that assuming the husband again is being biblically correct in what he says. Like "Honey, I think we should try this new church...."./

 

[tall73]

Why can't they love their wives without demanding submission?

In fact, I'd go so far as to say, if they're demanding submission, they're not loving like Christ. Christ doesn't demand submission.

The statement was for wives to give submission, not husbands to demand it.

Also, Jesus will command submission one day of the wicked. But for the church He asks us to give it willingly. And that is what the text in Ephesians says as well, of wives giving it to their husband.

 

[Humble me Lord]

Christ is the head of the church, correct? We are the church (bride), right? So we submit to Christ.
A biblical marriage is supposed to mirror that, so not submitting to the head is denying Christ and His teachings, no matter how you try to spin it.
Marriages that have domestic violence are not biblical marriages.
My wife submits to my authority, but I don't demand it at all, she just knows how to read.
We have been married 16 years and will have a loving, biblical marriage, til the end of our days.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Well theres the old saying "If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you?". That is to say lets say your husband told you to draw a pentagram on the floor and chant. Would you?

With what and how big? And is the chanting Latin or old world English?

 

[tall73]

So starting now to look at whether it is cultural, the first thing we need to ask is whether it is just regarding a particular situation in the Ephesian church. (I am not saying anyone here thinks that, just addressing it as a starting point, and I have known people who did).

Is it just regarding a particular situation in a particular church?

Well we have four different books stating it, to the church at Colossae, to the church at Ephesus, to Titus who was to instruct the people of Crete, and in Peter's case he is writing to churches in multiple provinces:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia

So we can rule out that it is simply addressing a specific church context.

 

[Paidiske]

The statement was for wives to give submission, not husbands to demand it.

Also, Jesus will command submission one day of the wicked. But for the church He asks us to give it willingly. And that is what the text in Ephesians says as well, of wives giving it to their husband.

The problem is when we have a church culture as a whole that demands it, though.

I don't have a problem with a wife choosing to do willingly for her husband. It's when it goes beyond that, that it's a problem.

 

[tall73]

The problem is when we have a church culture as a whole that demands it, though.

I don't have a problem with a wife choosing to do willingly for her husband. It's when it goes beyond that, that it's a problem.

If you mean a church culture that encourages a wife to do what the Bible says and submit to her husband, then yes, a number of them do.

That in no way leads to husbands beating their wife if they follow Ephesians 5, because Ephesians 5 precludes that completely.

 

[Paidiske]

Don't you even see the power in "do what the Bible says"? Don't you see how that guilt trips women into dangerous situations?

On another forum I have spent months, and months, supporting a woman who has left her violent husband and who is wracked with guilt and doubt because she feels it was her lack of submission that destroyed their marriage.

That's the burden I want to lift, the broken heart I want to heal. But it's so hard when you have to try to help that person drown out the chorus yelling at her that getting herself and her children to safety goes against God's will!

 

[tall73]

Next is the question of whether this principle goes beyond just this time period.

I would say yes.

I Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:


6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

This goes beyond merely the culture of 1st Century Rome and refers back to Sarah and Abraham. This reference to icons of faith seems to indicate more than just cultural reasons.

Additional arguments to follow.

 

[drjean]

Submission will only be discussed in the separate forums for married men's/women's personal topics. UPDATE: Trial Thread found HERE. Please only discuss submission in that thread or in the married men's/women's personal topics.

 

[Paidiske]

Sorry, we kind of got carried away...

 

[Dave-W]

But to say that it doesn't apply because people beat their wives has no relation. Anyone following that text does not beat their wife. So you cannot say the text is wrong because it leads to beating of wives, when anyone who follows it would never beat their wife.

You never met my dad.

 

[tall73]

You never met my dad.

So your dad loved his wife as Christ loved the church, and gave himself up for her.....and beat his wife?

 

[Dave-W]

So your dad loved his wife as Christ loved the church, and gave himself up for her.....and beat his wife?

Yep. If mom did not do what dad wanted, he broke her bones. And if the church does not do what Christ wants us to, He throws us into hell.

That was how dad saw it.

 

[tall73]

Yep. If mom did not do what dad wanted, he broke her bones. And if the church does not do what Christ wants us to, He throws us into hell.

That was how dad saw it.

So in other words he didn't follow what the text says:

Ephesian 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones

 

[Dave-W]

So in other words he didn't follow what the text says:

Yeah - it seemed he was blind to certain parts of that.

But I think his idea of "love" was a very violent one. I know mine was for a long time because of him.