Husbands Authority

[mkgal1]

where terms associated with authority are used.

Such as....submission? If that's what you mean, then I believe that's reading into the text to interpret that as "authority".

 

[mkgal1]

Ironically given the situation....I agree!

Do you mean it's ironic because of their death? If so.....I think that can be seen as illustrative. If a couple chooses greed (together....in unity) over doing things out of love....I believe that brings "death" (not necessarily their immediate death like Annanais and Saphira....but maybe death of relationships.....death of their consciences....death of a bit of joy...etc).

 

[tall73]

That's one interpretation I believe differently however (emphasis is on LIFE not authority).

The notion of authority is inescapable here:

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church

- Christ is at the right hand of God (on the throne), reigning.
- He is far above every power and name conceivable in all ages
- All things are put under His feet
- He is Head over all things.

That is authority. If not, please explain how those do not indicate authority.

 

[tall73]

Do you mean it's ironic because of their death? If so.....I think that can be seen as illustrative. If a couple chooses greed (together....in unity) over doing things out of love....I believe that brings "death" (not necessarily their immediate death like Annanais and Saphira....but maybe death of relationships.....death of their consciences....death of a bit of joy...etc).

No! I mean it was ironic that when we just agreed that it was not whether humans agreed that was important....we agreed!

 

[mkgal1]

No! I mean it was ironic that when we just agreed that it was not whether humans agreed that was important....we agreed!

Ooooh! I get it now.... I agree with that as well

 

[tall73]

Such as....submission? If that's what you mean, then I believe that's reading into the text to interpret that as "authority".

Several terms that deal with authority:

submit (in Ephesians, Colossians, Titus, I Peter
head (I Corinthians, Ephesians
obey (I Peter)
master. (I Peter)
Rule over (Genesis 1)

When I first started reading the Bible this was far from my experience growing up. It is not that my parents had a view on it either way, or if they did it was pointless because they just fought all the time.

But I struggled with the notion of this being about authority. But it is consistently the case, so I eventually accepted it (submitted to it if you will!)

 

[mkgal1]

The notion of authority is inescapable here:

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church

- Christ is at the right hand of God (on the throne), reigning.
- He is far above every power and name conceivable in all ages
- All things are put under His feet
- He is Head over all things.

That is authority. If not, please explain how those do not indicate authority.

I'm not dismissing God's authority (I'm speaking of marriage....only marriage).
But I still see "head" meaning "life giving" there. IOW.....the Scriptures show us (I believe) that His kingdom is far different than any of the pagan kingdoms. His is based on healing us....purifying us....making us whole....with love.

His love is most powerful and transforming. Did you hear Bishop Michael Curry's sermon at the royal wedding this morning? ICYMI...here's the transcript (and I believe it ALL goes back to love....God is love):

“And now in the name of our loving liberating and life giving god, father, son, and holy spirit, amen. From the song of Solomon in the bible, set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm, for love is as strong as death, passion, fears as the its flashes are flashes of fire, a raging flame. Many waters cannot quench love, neither can floods. Drown it out.

The late Dr. Martin Luther king once said and I quote, ‘We must discover the power of love, the redemptive power of love, and when we do that, we will make of this old world a new world.’

Love is the only way. There's power in love. Don't underestimate it. Don't even over sentimentalize it. There's power, power in love. If you don't believe me, think about a time when you first fell in love. The whole world seemed to center around you and your beloved. Well, there's power, power in love, not just in its romantic forms, but any form, any shape of love.

There's a certain sense in which when you are loved and you know it, when someone cares for you and you know it, when you love and you show it, it actually feels right. There's something right about it. And there's a reason for it. The reason has to do with the source. We were made by a power of love and our lives were meant and are meant to be lived in that love. That's why we are here. Ultimately the source of love is god himself. The source of all of our lives.

There's an old medieval poem that says, where true love is found, god himself is there. The new testament says it this way, beloved, let us love one another because love is of god and those who love are born of god and know god, those who do not love do not know god, why? For god is love. There's power in love. There's power in love to help and heal when nothing else can. There's power in love, to lift up and liberate when nothing else will. There's power in love to show us the way to live. Set me as a seal on your heart. A seal on your arm. For love, it is strong.

But love is not only about a young couple. Now the power of love is demonstrated by the fact that we're all here. Two young people fell in love and we all showed up. But it's not just for and about a young couple who we rejoice with. It's more than that. Jesus of Nazareth on one occasion was asked by a lawyer the sum of the essence of the teachings of Moses and he went back and reached back into the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus said, ‘you shall love the lord, your god, with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength. This is the first and great commandment.’

And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. And then in Matthews' version, he added, he said on these two, love of god and love of neighbor, hang all the law, all the prophets, everything that Moses wrote, everything in the holy prophets, everything in the scriptures, everything that god has been trying to tell the world, love god. Love your neighbors. And while you're at it, love yourself.

Someone once said that Jesus began most revolutionary movement in all of human history, a movement grounded in the unconditional love of god for the world. And a movement mandating people to live that love. And in so doing, to change not only their lives but the very life of the world itself. I'm talking about some power, real power, power to change the world.
If you don't believe me, well, there were some old slaves in America's antebellum south who explained the dynamic power of love and why it has the power, they explained it this way, they sang a spiritual, even in the midst of their captivity, something that can make things right, to make the wounded whole.

 

[tall73]

What DOES come to mind are marriages like Nabel and Abigail.....

Well in that story again we have a whole mess of issues. David, who usually listens to God, was about to become a murderer out of anger. Abigail indeed went completely against her husband's wishes, and also left him out of her plan, but in this case I would submit it was because she was submitting to God's higher authority.

a. she freely admitted he was a fool, in the sense of disregarding God, and in the sense of being foolish.

b. She actually rebuked David as well and said she was sent to keep him from blood guilt through revenge

This is a good case of when a wife should not submit to her husband if it is against God's will.

And she also rebuked the would be king. If God wants someone to do it, no matter their position, they should do it. His authority trumps any other.

 

[tall73]

Did you hear Bishop Michael Curry's sermon at the royal wedding this morning?

I missed it, but thank you, I enjoyed reading it.

 

[tall73]

I'm not dismissing God's authority (I'm speaking of marriage....only marriage).
But I still see "head" meaning "life giving" there.

And do you see submit there as dealing with authority? All things submitted under Him?

 

[mkgal1]

Well in that story again we have a whole mess of issues

Isn't that usually the case in real life---things aren't simple? There's usually a lot of people affected--that need to be considered-- by our choices.

She actually rebuked David as well and said she was sent to keep him from blood guilt through revenge

I prefer to think that she "spoke some sense" to David. I think he knew just beneath the surface what was right/wrong and just needed a little reminder. Anger often does that---blinds us from what's right in the immediate moment.

If God wants someone to do it, no matter their position, they should do it. His authority trumps any other.

I agree! (See? That's not so uncommon for us to agree ). Another "unlikely" woman I can think of is the "one wise woman" in 2nd Samuel 20. God seemed to use a LOT of "unlikely" people from the margins of society.

 

[mkgal1]

And do you see submit there as dealing with authority? All things submitted under Him?

"Things".....like His inanimate creation (waves, wind, mountains) "submit" because they are HIS creation (I don't see them as having choices)......but I don't believe we, humans, are strong-armed into loving and following Him (we do that of our own volition....the way I believe He prefers it...the way only genuine love can....out of freedom).

I see it (His authority) as a matter of us "choosing life.....or choosing death". Throughout our lives we learn (often the hard way)....that certain things bring "death" to our lives (usually selfish ambition and pride)....and, hopefully, as we mature, we learn to gravitate more towards "life-giving" ways. When we align ourselves with His goodness....His love....then we are joining with Him (submitting to Him)...being in unity with Him....having allegiance to Him.

His authority, to me, means this:

The Lord of Hosts Himself has planned it;
therefore, who can stand in its way?
It is His hand that is outstretched,
so who can turn it back?

....which, to me, means His promise of "making all things new" will come to complete fulfillment....where there will be "no more tears, no more sorrow, no more pain, and the the old order of things has passed away" (Rev 21:4). The "old order of things" to my mind includes people ruling over other people and will be replaced with all people voluntarily choosing to love God.

 

[tall73]

"Things".....like His inanimate creation (waves, wind, mountains) "submit" because they are HIS creation (I don't see them as having choices)......

But there are more than just inanimate things in view here.

The sentence before:

21 far above all principalityg]">[g] and h]">[h]power and i]">[i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

 

[tall73]

......but I don't believe we, humans, are strong-armed into loving and following Him (we do that of our own volition....the way I believe He prefers it...the way only genuine love can....out of freedom).

The text is not limited to those who serve Him willingly. Yes, as Christians we submit willingly. He wants all people to do so, to repent, rather than to perish.

But all will submit.

Phil. 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I Cor. 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[mkgal1]

The text is not limited to those who serve Him willingly.

But all will submit.

I agree that ALL will submit (but I also believe it's of their own volition). But *that* is another topic....that needs to take place in another sub-forum.

But.....I wonder if that's the difference in our framework? I believe that's a testimony to the power of His love....you seem to be suggesting it's about His authority and power to compel others against their own will (because that's the only antithesis I can think of for "willingly"). Is that what you mean?

 

[tall73]

I agree that ALL will submit (but I also believe it's of their own volition). But *that* is another topic....that needs to take place in another sub-forum. But.....I wonder if that's the difference in our framework? I believe that's a testimony to the power of His love....you seem to be suggesting it's about His authority and power to compel others against their own will (because that's the only antithesis I can think of for "willingly"). Is that what you mean?

Well certainly if you are universalist that would be a different jumping off point. I am an annihilationist myself, and neither can be discussed here as you reference.

But on a more generic level, I think God does away with sin, but wants people to separate from it. His attitude is clear in that it is not His will that the wicked be destroyed:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But eventually everything will be brought under His reign, and all the major views agree on that.

And apart from final punishment or lack thereof, there are many cases of God bringing judgment against someone, imposing His will, etc.

Judgment on Sodom
Judment on Pharaoh
Judgement on Herod Agrippa, etc.

 

[mkgal1]

I think God does away with sin, but wants people to separate from it

Do you believe He does away with sin.....or that His love compels people to TURN away from sin?

But eventually everything will be brought under His reign, and all the major views agree on that.

This is another place we may disagree (which affects how we view things). I believe His kingdom is already inaugurated here on earth. We don't have to "wait" for change.....we need to participate in it.

 

[tall73]

Do you believe He does away with sin.....or that His love compels people to TURN away from sin?

Would answer except for the restrictions.

This is another place we may disagree (which affects how we view things). I believe His kingdom is already inaugurated here on earth. We don't have to "wait" for change.....we need to participate in it.

His kingdom is already here. But I Corinthians 15 certainly pertains to a future time. Not all yet follow Him.

 

[mkgal1]

These are my go-to videos that demonstrates (IMO) so well the power of love and its healing properties:

------->From the very beginning of his life, Hector Verdugo had everything going against him — until a Catholic priest entered his life, following a prison stint, and gave him the chance he needed.

“My earliest memories are just violence,” Verdugo told a gathering of Catholic activists at the Catholic Social Ministry Gathering in Washington, at a Feb. 9 session dedicated to the Church’s vision of “restorative justice.”

The strikes against Verdugo’s life began before he was born. His mother was a heroin addict; his father died from a heroin overdose a week before Verdugo’s birth. Heroin claimed the life of his grandfather, too.

“And so my life began,” Verdugo recalled.

His mother fled with him and his twin brother, when they were young children, into the Ramona Gardens projects of East Los Angeles to escape an abusive partner, also a heroin addict. In the projects, Verdugo grew up in a culture where the gang became his family, because they took an interest in him when others wouldn’t.

One of his first memories was picking up a gun hidden in the bushes and the cholos, or homeboys, showing him how to hold it.

“We looked up to them,” he said, recalling how one of them would fly kites with him on a hill.

The only prospects (and expectations) people had for him in the projects was a life headed toward juvenile hall as a youth and then to prison as an adult. They gave him just the rules to survive there.

“It’s sad that the neighborhood I go to was preparing me for this,” he said.

Prison was not a place of rehabilitation, Verdugo added. It instead functioned as a massive drug-networking center, so that when a person left, “you’re coming out with better product and better prices.”

But reading a Time magazine article in prison while high on methamphetamine jolted his conscience to the core: A woman high on meth had killed her baby with a microwave oven. Verdugo had justified selling meth — not to his own neighborhood — across the country to people he didn’t care about: “Klan members” in Tennessee and Kentucky. Except, he couldn’t do it anymore.

“I felt like God spoke to me and he said: ‘You’re doing this, and you’re doing this to my children.’”



Rescued From Recidivism

After prison, Verdugo stopped dealing drugs. But the problem he faced — along with many other ex-prisoners — was that he wanted to change, he just didn’t know how. All he knew was dealing drugs, so he struggled to hold a job and was convinced it was just a matter of time before he would end up in front of a judge and back in prison.

More than 600,000 ex-convicts are released annually, but most do not end up rehabilitated and restored in society after prison. According to the Bureau of Justice statistics, more than half of prisoners released are arrested within one year. Within three years, two-thirds (67.8%) are rearrested; within five years, 76.6% are back in prison.

But Verdugo’s life took a different turn. A friend put him in touch with Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, run by Father Greg Boyle, where programs including creative writing, poetry, meditation, prayer and therapy helped bring Verdugo healing, purpose and the sense of family he was looking for.

“I realized this is what I wanted all my life,” said Verdugo, who serves as Homeboy Industries’ associate executive director.

“God said, ‘You’re in the right place. Be a part of it, and if you don’t like it, be part of the change.’”

According to Homeboy Industries, more than 70% of former gang members and ex-prisoners who have gone through their program are successfully rehabilitated.~

Can Homeboy Redemption Help Restore America’s Future?

 

[mkgal1]

Would answer except for the restrictions.

Okay....I understand.

But what about us, living as Christians, now? We are compelled to "live as Christ"....and, just like the example we used earlier (with King David, Nabel, and Abigail) we can see that life gets messy a lot of the time. I'm certainly making errors along the way. Isn't love more transformative than punishment and exertion of dominance and authority ("because I say so")? What do you think draws people towards a more righteous way of living?

His kingdom is already here. But I Corinthians 15 certainly pertains to a future time. Not all yet follow Him.

Correct.....the theology I am in agreement with says "His kingdom is already inaugurated, but not yet consummated"......but I believe that's all over a long period of time....not one swift happening and ALL is changed.