Husbands Authority

[tall73]

Okay....I understand.

But what about us, living as Christians, now? We are compelled to "live as Christ"....and, just like the example we used earlier (with King David, Nabel, and Abigail) we can see that life gets messy a lot of the time. I'm certainly making errors along the way. Isn't love more transformative than punishment and exertion of dominance and authority ("because I say so")? What do you think draws people towards a more righteous way of living?

Yes, we do grow. Or to put it another way, we have the Spirit in us, but we learn over time to "keep in step with the Spirit" as Paul says to the Galatians.

He does not force us in that regard, but we have to learn to allow Him to do His work in us.

But it also says we can put out the Spirits fire. And it says we can grieve the Spirit.

In Philippians he says work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

On the other hand, there were times God corrected more directly, as you already referenced with Ananias and Sapphira.

And yes, we should seek to do His will "on earth as it is in heaven."

The NT does at times speak frankly about those who practice certain behaviors not inheriting the kingdom of God, in order to prevent folks from being self-deceived.

The way I look at it is that Jesus spoke on hell and judgment often. But that is the way to get folks to pay attention. Long term love is the motivation for change--our response to His love, and then Him living out His love in us.

 

[mkgal1]

But it also says we can put out the Spirits fire. And it says we can grieve the Spirit.

Right....and I'd consider that a bit of "death" of our conscience (and, often, relationships). But I don't see our life with Christ as an all-or-nothing kind of deal. What I mean is....I think most people follow Christ in some instances....and grieve the Spirit in others. That's why having an intimate relationship (like our close friendships and especially our marriages) where we can trust the other person to "speak sense" to us at times as I believe Abigail spoke sense to David when he was tempted to take revenge on Nabal's entire household. God said it's not good for mankind to be alone....and I believe that's why (at least one reason why).....to save us from our egos.

Long term love is the motivation for change--our response to His love, and then Him living out His love in us.

See? We agree on a lot of things. I agree with this as well.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That passage has God instructing Abraham to do more than just "listen" to Sarah (it says for him to do what Sarah tells him to do--when Abraham was reluctant). I could use your same words back to you: "just accept what the Bible teaches in plain language. My goodness". It's right there.

And about authority? I offer this quote:

------>The only time authority between a husband and wife is specifically mentioned is in 1 Corinthians 7:4: “The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.”

The Bible clearly commands mutual authority to both the husband and wife. Philip Payne comments on this passage: “The strikingly egalitarian understanding of the dynamics of marital relations expressed in Paul’s symmetry throughout this passage is without parallel in the literature of the ancient world”.²

2.Man and Woman: One in Christ. Philip Payne.
Co-Leadership in Marriage: Who's in Authority? - The Junia Project

You are grossly misusing that passage. It has Abraham listening to his wife's advice. Deos every authority who listens to counsel somehow lack authority. You make a nonsensical arguemnt here. the Bible teaches the woman submits to her husband and uses Sarah's obedience as an example. It nowhere says differently. To try and ignore that based on someone listening to counsel is silly, and shows how desperate the feminist position is. It lacks Scriptural support entirely.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Maybe a refresher of the text is in order.

The Bible says this:



.....it seems to me that, if God had given husbands authority, this would be the time for an explanation of that (instead---He demonstrates that women can be desiring something that's God's will.....and husbands can be blinded by their own displeasure and their own agenda...IOW...their own ego).

Again, you blatantly misuse this passage. There is no instruction in the passage. It is an example of behavior, that of the head of the home listening to counsel, as I do too. The ONLY instructional passages in the entire New Testament show that the husband is the head and the wife obeys him. You are story telling here because you have no Scripture to support you.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But it IS ad hominem when that's a false accusation (as yours was). It does nothing to strengthen your argument.

I missed the "despicable" comment. You're going to have to cite that for me.

No, it is a common accusation to make when someone radically changes the rules with which they interpret to suit the text.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

......and Christ gave the church life. Biblical "headship" is a metaphor for life (there's not much of a life to a body when the head is chopped off). When body and head are in unity.....there is life.

Yes, and He gave His life for ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

Just as the wife obeys her husband, so the Church obeys Christ.

 

[mkgal1]

Again, you blatantly misuse this passage. There is no instruction in the passage. It is an example of behavior, that of the head of the home listening to counsel, as I do too. The ONLY instructional passages in the entire New Testament show that the husband is the head and the wife obeys him. You are story telling here because you have no Scripture to support you.

I've been using specific Scripture to support my assertion, but you seem to insist in reading something else into the text.

"Head of the home" isn't from Scripture (that I'm aware of) ..nor is a wife "obeying" her husband from Scripture...and "do whatever Sarah tells you to do"-from Genesis 21:12- sure sounds like instruction (directly from God!) to me.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, and He gave His life for ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

Just as the wife obeys her husband, so the Church obeys Christ.

You missed my point.

"Headship" doesn't mean "chief of" or "authority over" (not in our belief--and not according the the original language). It symbolizes the unity and necessity of a literal head to a body. Beheadings were pretty common in Jesus' day....so to speak of heads and bodies would probably conjure up images of the importance to life of a head connected to a body (and how death is immanent when the head is detached from the body).

 

[Tropical Wilds]

But it IS ad hominem when that's a false accusation (as yours was). It does nothing to strengthen your argument.

I missed the "despicable" comment. You're going to have to cite that for me.

“Despicable” isn’t a word I use much... I’m not saying I didn’t say it, only it doesn’t sound like me.

 

[tall73]

You missed my point.

"Headship" doesn't mean "chief of" or "authority over" (not in our belief--and not according the the original language)..

We already looked at the Ephesians text, but head is both head over the body, and source, and also deals with authority. For instance, this text in Colossians:

Col 2: For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head of all rule and authority


And even in the LXX this usage was already around

Judges 10:18And the people the princes of Galaad said every man to his neighbour, Who is he that shall begin to fight against the children of Ammon? he shall even be head over all that dwell in Galaad.

 

[mkgal1]

“Despicable” isn’t a word I use much... I’m not saying I didn’t say it, only it doesn’t sound like me.

I don't believe you said it. I did a search of this thread for that word, and nothing came up (nor do I recall that word even being used). I admit I could be wrong....but I'd need to see the post quoted.

 

[mkgal1]

4 facts that show "head" does not mean "leader" in 1 Corinthians 11:3 | Marg Mowczko

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I don't believe you said it. I did a search of this thread for that word, and nothing came up (nor do I recall that word even being used). I admit I could be wrong....but I'd need to see the post quoted.

Full disclosure... If I did say it, I’m confident I spelled it wrong. I’m a synesthete who spells phonetically, which means I’m a terrible speller. That’s why I find it hard to believe I said it because I can’t spell it confidently and try to stick to words I can.

 

[JRichard68]

Again, you blatantly misuse this passage. There is no instruction in the passage. It is an example of behavior, that of the head of the home listening to counsel, as I do too. The ONLY instructional passages in the entire New Testament show that the husband is the head and the wife obeys him. You are story telling here because you have no Scripture to support you.

You've got this a tad wrong, and I wish to God that men would start actually paying attention. Don't miss this, now, because it has to do with you:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God (1 Cor.11:3).​

Now, did you catch that? So before you go sticking your "head" out, you might want to consider Who yours is first.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You've got this a tad wrong, and I wish to God that men would start actually paying attention. Don't miss this, now, because it has to do with you:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God (1 Cor.11:3).​

Now, did you catch that? So before you go sticking your "head" out, you might want to consider Who yours is first.

Your point here is lost on me. I am aware that my head is God and Christ. Yet I also know as a man I have authority over my wife and must use that authority in a godly way. I hope that every other man recognizes the same.

But how does God's authority somehow deny that I have my own? Does it deny that the government has authority? Does it deny that my boss has authority? Does it deny that parents have authority? Not it doesn't. It merely puts all those authorities under the rightful domain of Almighty God. This should be very clear in Scripture.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You missed my point.

"Headship" doesn't mean "chief of" or "authority over" (not in our belief--and not according the the original language). It symbolizes the unity and necessity of a literal head to a body. Beheadings were pretty common in Jesus' day....so to speak of heads and bodies would probably conjure up images of the importance to life of a head connected to a body (and how death is immanent when the head is detached from the body).

You are wrong. Headship DOES include real authority. We are to OBEY God. And those under our authority obey us as well. Do you think you don' have to obey the law of the land? (assuming it does not require you do evil) If you recognize that you need to obey the law of the land then likewise, and by the same reasoning, you recognize the wife needs to obey her husband.

That is what the Bible teaches and that is what the words mean. I believe i posted many of the Greek words in another post, but go do a word search in Blueletterbible yourself. Do it in the Hebrew as well. You will see the same thing.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I've been using specific Scripture to support my assertion, but you seem to insist in reading something else into the text.

"Head of the home" isn't from Scripture (that I'm aware of) ..nor is a wife "obeying" her husband from Scripture...and "do whatever Sarah tells you to do"-from Genesis 21:12- sure sounds like instruction (directly from God!) to me.

You ignore what I said. I told you that you are trying to use a demonstration of behavior, and one which has nothing to do with what we speak, in order to ignore plain instructions. We cannot do that. We take instructions above demonstrations of behavior.

Now you are trying to sneak out of what the Bible teaches by claiming it does not include the phrase "head of home." That is irrelevant. What matters is what it DOES include: The Bible teaches that the wife submits to her husband in all things, that she submits to him as to Christ and that she should obey him, as Sarah obeyed Abraham. It teaches that the head of every woman is man. Ergo, the husband is the head of the home.

I don't know why you want to argue about this. Unless you think language has no meaning at all (and I don't think you do) then the Bible plainly teaches the man's headship and the woman's submission.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Do you notice that when you speak with men who disagree with you vs women who disagree with you, you behave very, very differently? Men who disagree with you, you tell them they are wrong and then you proceed to yell at the rain for awhile. Women, however, you demean them, speak down to them, insult them, and show absolutely no respect in how you speak to them. It’s fascinating.

 

[JRichard68]

Your point here is lost on me.

That's too bad. I usually try to make sense.

I am aware that my head is God and Christ.

Okay, so not totally lost. Good.

Yet I also know as a man I have authority over my wife and must use that authority in a godly way. I hope that every other man recognizes the same.

I hope so, too. But what "authority" is it you imagine you have?

But how does God's authority somehow deny that I have my own? Does it deny that the government has authority? Does it deny that my boss has authority? Does it deny that parents have authority? Not it doesn't. It merely puts all those authorities under the rightful domain of Almighty God. This should be very clear in Scripture.

BINGO! You got it!
And yet you have pride enough, realizing that "all...authorities (are) under the rightful domain of Almighty God" to declare that you have authority over your wife. As I said elsewhere, look up the organizational chart, not down. When one chooses to look "down" a little too much, one can easily be fired.