Husband wife submission

[Thir7ySev3n]

I wont be submitting to any guy. I will instead have a partner and don't intend to inherit an outdated 1st century line of thinking that has no relevance to today. Women today dont need you to lead - women are just as capable (if not more) to provide for themselves and their family...but a partnership in life and love is a great thing. If you cant live with that and are waiting impatiently for a return to a BC patriarchy - well you will be left behind as our society moves forward to gender equality.

It is a wasted allotment of however much energy you have deposited into your optimism of this outcome. Not only is it inarguable that the Scriptures are clear about male and female roles, but the world as it is now developing into godlessness is being set up to be knocked down. I don't know if you have read Revelations or Daniel, or other end times prophecy, but not only is there no future for a nation that intentionally lends itself to perverted order, but the government will be replaced with one that is reigned by a man, once again, forever: The man Jesus Christ.

That aside, most women don't actually know that they are being used by the government to create chaos anyhow. I won't bother getting into that lengthy subject except to say that when all is revealed, just remember the Scriptures already declared what was going to come of your hope in the world, which has removed itself from God and thus has no hope.

As I said, I am married to a submissive woman, so I exert no energy except to sustain sound doctrine. As to women being as capable..no. Women are given their own giftings, but they are not what a man has and vice versa. Everything you had in and under your hands as you wrote that response was made by men, in a world built by men in societies sustained by men since the beginning of time. Your life has been providentially established under the guidance of preservation of men, all the way up until your spoiled attitude could be thankless it has.

 

[Zoii]

It is a wasted allotment of however much energy you have deposited into your optimism of this outcome. Not only is it inarguable that the Scriptures are clear about male and female roles, but the world as it is now developing into godlessness is being set up to be knocked down. I don't know if you have read Revelations or Daniel, or other end times prophecy, but not only is there no future for a nation that intentionally lends itself to perverted order, but the government will be replaced with one that is reigned by a man, once again, forever: The man Jesus Christ.

That aside, most women don't actually know that they are being used by the government to create chaos anyhow. I won't bother getting into that lengthy subject except to say that when all is revealed, just remember the Scriptures already declared what was going to come of your hope in the world, which has removed itself from God and thus has no hope.

As I said, I am married to a submissive woman, so I exert no energy except to sustain sound doctrine. As to women being as capable..no. Women are given their own giftings, but they are not what a man has and vice versa. Everything you had in and under your hands as you wrote that response was made by men, in a world built by men in societies sustained by men since the beginning of time. Your life has been providentially established under the guidance of preservation of men, all the way up until your spoiled attitude could be thankless it has.

It is a wasted allotment of however much energy you have deposited into your optimism of this outcome. Not only is it inarguable that the Scriptures are clear about male and female roles, but the world as it is now developing into godlessness is being set up to be knocked down. I don't know if you have read Revelations or Daniel, or other end times prophecy, but not only is there no future for a nation that intentionally lends itself to perverted order, but the government will be replaced with one that is reigned by a man, once again, forever: The man Jesus Christ.

That aside, most women don't actually know that they are being used by the government to create chaos anyhow. I won't bother getting into that lengthy subject except to say that when all is revealed, just remember the Scriptures already declared what was going to come of your hope in the world, which has removed itself from God and thus has no hope.

As I said, I am married to a submissive woman, so I exert no energy except to sustain sound doctrine. As to women being as capable..no. Women are given their own giftings, but they are not what a man has and vice versa. Everything you had in and under your hands as you wrote that response was made by men, in a world built by men in societies sustained by men since the beginning of time. Your life has been providentially established under the guidance of preservation of men, all the way up until your spoiled attitude could be thankless it has.

Well all I can say is that your reply merely serves to sustain my convictions. Your comment "Your life has been providentially established under the guidance of preservation of men, all the way up until your spoiled attitude" only serves my view that men frequently need to exert aggression to show leadership whereas I don't view such behavior as leadership. Rather I view a myriad of behaviors including strong communication and being inspirational as the right qualities. I don't include a verse you have decided to pervert in your favor as one of the critical requirements of leadership.

But I'd like to point out that women already lead in so many facets of life. Name a profession and women are there. In my age group girls in every single western nation have led the academic scores at schools. In most countries you will find the larger percentage of the doctors who treat your broken bones or mental health disorders are women, so too the teacher of your children, the lawyer who helps you out when your sued, and the CEO of the company of which your applying for a job. You are dreaming if you think that's going to reverse. Women are already on the way - not to dominate..just to do their part in showing human capacity including leadership.

 

[Khalliqa]

I like what others might see as an authoritative man.. trouble is he would have his work cut out for him.. Most women are realizing their intellectual potential and a working autonomous healthy mind is hard to "lead" with an authoritative patriarch mindset..

There are other ways to lead.. that don't trample on another adult's humanity..

At its best, I don't think the idea of submission and leadership works using that model..

I've found that a scientific approach .. seeking to understand the other person, utilizing one's own wisdom and experience while meting out suggestions etc from a position of respect and humility requires the leader to be advanced.. and works better..

The old methods simply require a man to be "born" male and by virtue of birth he seems to believe he's qualified.. or ordained by an entity to do so.. that's simply not enough evidence of good qualifications to be turning my life over to someone..

Other methods suggest man be led by a spirit or a god.. which essentially means his own subjective view and understanding of what that even is.. If he's dense.. then being led by a spirit means a dense person interprets a spirits guidance (however that happens) and then makes decisions ... seems vague... and defeats the purpose imo.. replace spirit or god with zeus.. gaia.. or any other non popular spiritual entity and you have the same problem..

Neither of the above are centered on understanding and mastering self before even attempting to master the life of another.. (which means the conclusion may be that many men SHOULD NOT try to lead women at all) and doesn't allow for room of study.. autonomy.. diplomacy.. etc..

Weird..

At any rate..

I've been in situations with men... that leave me no choice but to follow.. I felt compelled to... They simply oozed a superior understanding of life and me in it.. Just made sense.. That didn't mean I needed to marry them.. but I can honestly admit having been in the situation before...

I've no doubt this would be the case rather man or woman.. though I've just never met a woman I felt compelled to submit to.. I've listened and learned from other women.. but not felt compelled to submit to them.. I suspect the element of attraction would have to be there somewhere for that work though..

That said.. I will also honestly admit I'm turned off by men who submit to me.. Might have something to do with me being a mom.. I immediately see them as boys in my head.. lol..

Interesting thread..

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

So, poster 37 with the cutesy spelling, if you have daughters, will you allow them to recieve education in areas like math and science?

 

[RDKirk]

"Autonomy" is an anti-Christian concept.

But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require.

But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

There is no "autonomy" in a body.

 

[Dave-W]

There is no "autonomy" in a body.

Exactly.

 

[Khalliqa]

Exactly.

"Autonomy" is an anti-Christian concept.

But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require.

But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

There is no "autonomy" in a body.

Wow. Really glad I came back to this forum. This helps explain a lot when I deal with certain mindsets. If a person does not believe another person has autonomy they can essentially devalue your humanity and relegate it to the dictates of the understanding of their belief system. And if they believe in the infallibility of their understanding then they will be immune to what others with self esteem will deem the barbarity of their views.

Fascinating.

But it's also contradictory to Christians who believe in free will and hold people accountable to their "sins" and actions based on their agency and autonomy.

Again, quite fascinating.

 

[Dave-W]

But it's also contradictory to Christians who believe in free will and hold people accountable to their "sins" and actions based on their agency and autonomy.

Again, quite fascinating.

I am one who believes completely in free will.
But I also agree that to use that free will apart from the body and in an autonomous way is to choose rebellion against God.

In the body example, what if your left fore-arm decided to stay in bed today? And your right ear decided to not go to bed last night? Where would that leave you as a person this morning?

 

[RDKirk]

Wow. Really glad I came back to this forum. This helps explain a lot when I deal with certain mindsets. If a person does not believe another person has autonomy they can essentially devalue your humanity and relegate it to the dictates of the understanding of their belief system. And if they believe in the infallibility of their understanding then they will be immune to what others with self esteem will deem the barbarity of their views.

Fascinating.

But it's also contradictory to Christians who believe in free will and hold people accountable to their "sins" and actions based on their agency and autonomy.

Again, quite fascinating.

Agency and autonomy are not the same thing.

But some of these branches from Abraham's tree--some of the people of Israel--have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God's special olive tree.

Branches of a tree are not autonomous, yet a poorly producing branch might be pruned.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

So, poster 37 with the cutesy spelling, if you have daughters, will you allow them to recieve education in areas like math and science?

And let a woman think for herself? I would think that such an occurrence would threaten and shake the very foundation of the dominant patriarchal male mindset and that kind of controlling and dominating environment. I can only suppose that a man who feels 'his woman' should be submissive to him would feel threatened by a strong and independent woman like that.

 

[Poppyseed78]

I would like to point out that Hitler was a man. That's all.

Just because a man may have built something doesn't make it good.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Godwin's Law: As a discussion grows larger, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler.

 

[Khalliqa]

^^^ lol True..

 

[Khalliqa]

I am one who believes completely in free will.
But I also agree that to use that free will apart from the body and in an autonomous way is to choose rebellion against God.

Okay.

In the body example, what if your left fore-arm decided to stay in bed today? And your right ear decided to not go to bed last night? Where would that leave you as a person this morning?

Not the best example for someone like me.. because if the forearm exists as a forearm, the right ear exists as a right ear and they think.. that must mean they are inherently existing as a conscience entities which have the ability to harm or help themselves.. both of which are within their ability and possibly their rights depending on other factors..

But, I digress.. to be fair to what I believe is your point.. that the existence of a whole depends upon the obeisance of the parts and therefore autonomy is of no or lower value in relation to the existence of the whole.. That makes sense in the scope of those who believe that eve represents the whole of female humanity and she is literally a part of Adam and thus not truly a whole person herself.. just the representative part of the whole.. and in similar strain that the whole family depends on the obeisance of the wife to the husband

I think you can gather that I find some disturbing flaws with the acceptance of such a narrative.. but my opinion is of no consequence.. I only want to make sure I'm understanding your point.. Please confirm or explain.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Are you even old enough to be drinking Todd?

Old enough to see terrible behavior couched in a holier-than-thou attitude.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If you actually believe this response of yours then you are more inept than I thought.

You do realize that if you keep this up you're going to get in trouble, right?

 

[Moral Orel]

Godwin's Law: As a discussion grows larger, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler.

People throw this one out there too often. Khalliqa didn't compare anyone or anything to Hitler, he simply mentioned him. Basically, 37 said, "look at all the great stuff men have done" and Khalliqa replied, "yeah, like the holocaust". Which is an entirely appropriate comment. No one was hyperbolically or inappropriately comparing a lesser crime to Hitler's crimes, which is the point of Godwin's Law.

Personally, to avoid having Godwin brought up when I find myself in similar situations, I simply mention Polpot instead. Same effect.

 

[Poppyseed78]

In my opinion, we have to equip girls with the ability to think for themselves. It's very dangerous to limit their education because it is "unnecessary" and assume that their future husband will have their best interests at heart. In an ideal world, that would be true, but we don't live in an ideal world. Women must be able to be self-sufficient, lest they become dependent on men who mistreat them. Call me cynical, but people lie, including Christians. Even the most well-meaning parents can mistakenly arrange a marriage for their daughter with a man who abuses her. It is foolish and negligent to raise daughters dependent on the (very fickle) goodwill of men.

 

[Khalliqa]

In my opinion, we have to equip girls with the ability to think for themselves. It's very dangerous to limit their education because it is "unnecessary" and assume that their future husband will have their best interests at heart. In an ideal world, that would be true, but we don't live in an ideal world. Women must be able to be self-sufficient, lest they become dependent on men who mistreat them. Call me cynical, but people lie, including Christians. Even the most well-meaning parents can mistakenly arrange a marriage for their daughter with a man who abuses her. It is foolish and negligent to raise daughters dependent on the (very fickle) goodwill of men.

((((((HUGS))))) for this post!!

 

[Paidiske]

Wow. Really glad I came back to this forum. This helps explain a lot when I deal with certain mindsets. If a person does not believe another person has autonomy they can essentially devalue your humanity and relegate it to the dictates of the understanding of their belief system. And if they believe in the infallibility of their understanding then they will be immune to what others with self esteem will deem the barbarity of their views.

Fascinating.

But it's also contradictory to Christians who believe in free will and hold people accountable to their "sins" and actions based on their agency and autonomy.

Again, quite fascinating.

That's one possible approach.

Like others, I agree that autonomy is not a particularly Christian value, so much as interdependence is. (I can't say I don't need you, and you can't say you don't need me; we need each other).

However, I don't agree that that necessarily entails a devaluing of one's humanity; participating in a community of mutual interdependence should be voluntary, never forced.

If, as I suspect, your remarks are a reflection on the issue of abortion, well, there are other issues that come into play there, but that is quite off-topic to this thread.