Humans are unique, not evolved

[The Barbarian]

Environment is every factor that could change the likelihood of that organism surviving to reproduce.

I knew you were going to say that.

Perhaps you don't see how environment matters in natural selection. How do you think it works?

From the Dictionary of Biology:
Speciation

Definition​

noun, plural: speciations​

The process in which new genetically distinct species evolve usually as a result of genetic isolation from the main population​

Darwin wrote "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

Yes. "Races" in this title are what we'd call subspecies today.

Meanwhile, species is Chromosomes. (generally).

No. Chromosomes are strings of DNA.
Species
n., plural: species
[ˈspiːʃɪˌiːz]
Definition: A group of closely related organisms that can interbreed

The evolution of the apple maggot fly from the hawthorne maggot fly was because of a change in environment.

That "evolution" is not completed.

It has produced reproductive isolation. The two populations can no longer reproduce with each other, because their reproductive timing has changed. They don't breed at the same time, now.

Trends in Ecology and Evolution
Volume 19, Issue 3, March 2004, Pages 111-114

Speciation in the apple maggot fly: a blend of vintages?​

However, celebration among those who find sympatric speciation implausible would be premature. A major source of reproductive isolation between Rhagoletis host races is due to host-specific mating. So, even if some of the genetic variation necessary for the switch to apples originally arose in allopatry, it was the sympatric colonization of a new niche and increase in frequency of ‘southern’ haplotypes within that niche that led to reproductive isolation.

Barbarian, the Origin of the Species is being researched by scientist studying the Chromosomes.

Genetics is only one source of information on evolution. In Darwin's time, Mendel's discoveries were generally unknown. They did later clear up one serious objection to evolution, but Darwin didn't know about it.

As your fellow YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise admits, the many transitional forms in the fossil record are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

Observed evolution in existing populations is conclusive evidence for evolution. And so on.

Darwin's observations, classification and definition of Species could be more correctly classed Hybrids or Breeds.

Comes down to reproductive isolation. The apple maggot fly is an incipient species, just at the edge of speciation. We happen to be around to see it happening. But many such speciation are going on constantly. Many creationists have now just given up on that issue, and admitted that speciation is a fact.

"As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging."

Speciation

Speciation, the formation of new species, is not evolution in action. Rather, it demonstrates the incredible variety God put within each created kind.

answersingenesis.org

 

[The Barbarian]

Cats and humans are 90% genetically identical.

Their genetic organization is very similar, but the genes are different. Here's a chart showing DNA phylogenies for the mammals:

Primates (including humans) are genetically more similar to rodents, bats, and rabbits than to cats.

 

[Niels]

Their genetic organization is very similar, but the genes are different. Here's a chart showing DNA phylogenies for the mammals:

Primates (including humans) are genetically more similar to rodents, bats, and rabbits than to cats.

Yes. My point was that mammals are genetically similar, even if they're otherwise different than us. Humans are primates, so the similarities are even greater than with cats. In my experience, when somebody mentions that humans are 98% genetically similar to chips, they tend to interpret that statement as if we are basically the same as chimps or that we are descended from chimps. We're not. That 2% difference is actually quite profound. Sharing a common ancestor as life on this planet was formed from dust doesn't mean that humans aren't unique.

 

[The Barbarian]

In my experience, when somebody mentions that humans are 98% genetically similar to chips, they tend to interpret that statement as if we are basically the same as chimps or that we are descended from chimps. We're not.

Correct. And "98%" includes non-coding DNA that does matter, but less so than functioning genes. As you say, we are not descended from chimps. Humans and chimps are descended from a common ancestor that was neither human nor a chimp. The deal is that humans and chimps are more closely related to each other than either is to any other ape.

Obviously, there are very significant anatomical and behavioral differences between humans and chimps. Sometimes, small changes in genome can lead to huge changes in phenotype. One issue is neotony, the retention of juvenile characteristics in humans. with our small faces, longer legs, large crania and position of skull on the spine, we look more like juvenile apes than mature apes. This seems to have been a very important change for our species.

Humans are unique in being given an immortal soul directly by God.

 

[QvQ]

Natural Selection
1) Ability
2) Proximity
3) Opportunity

Environment
1) )The complete chemical composition in which the organism is found.
A) Water is a chemical H2O. Ice and Steam are reactions of H20 to temperature (climate =chemical reaction.)

Species:
1) Recombination of existing genes.
2) Retroviral insertion

1) Type: Dog (recombination of species genome, breed/hybrid)
2) Species: Canine (genome)
A) Every living organism inherits a box of genea from all previous generations. That box is the same for every one of the Species.
B) Every single canine has genes in that box that the chromosomes can recombine into a wolf, dingo, domestic dog,

That genome recombines exiting genetic material inherited from ancestors who had the exact same genetic material expressed or not.

Speciation:
There isn't evidence of Speciation. All known variation within Species is Type
1) Evolution requires additional genetic material and there isn't any mechanism to introduce that material
2) Evolution requires a change in the chemical composition of the environment and the recombination of the genome to adapt to the environment.

Isolation and The Genome
The theory claims that species evolve due to changes in the genome which eventually cause the Types to be unable to breed
1) Isolated Species: European Diploid Iris + Iranian Tetraploid Iris are naturally able to breed.
A) Chemicals have been used in research to recombine chromosomal material. The results has been variations in TYPE, not speciation.
B) Chemically induces change in Chromosomes: Polyploids, the increase in the chromosomal number in Irises resulted in more genetic material available. The polyploids increased Type (hybrid) but remained Species (Iris).

Chromosomes of species recombining existing material within the genome into different types.
That is Hybrid and Breeds. That is not "evolved" Species.

Hawthorn and apple maggot flies are physically indistinguishable. – However, they are genetically distinct, with different genetic profiles. There is no geographic isolation or physical separation between hawthorn and apple maggot flies.

 

[The Barbarian]

Natural Selection
1) Ability
2) Proximity
3) Opportunity

No. The process of the fit tending to leave more offspring than the less fit. Fitness counts only in terms of environment.

Environment
1) )The complete chemical composition in which the organism is found.
A) Water is a chemical H2O. Ice and Steam are reactions of H20 to temperature (climate =chemical reaction.)

No. Environment is any factor that can affect the likelihood of survival long enough to reproduce. Not just chemical. Temperature, for example. Predation, disease. shelter, food, etc.

Species:
1) Recombination of existing genes.
2) Retroviral insertion

No. Species is a population of interbreeding organisms. Maybe you don't know what "retroviral insertion" means. What do you think it means?

Isolation and The Genome
The theory claims that species evolve due to changes in the genome which eventually cause the Types to be unable to breed

More precisely, will not breed in nature. For example, many species of birds can be induced to interbreed and produce hybrid young in captivity, but never do do in nature.

Hawthorn and apple maggot flies are physically indistinguishable. – However, they are genetically distinct, with different genetic profiles. There is no geographic isolation or physical separation between hawthorn and apple maggot flies.

Doesn't need to be. They breed now at different times and frequent different hosts.
The apple maggot (Rhagoletis pomonella), also known as the railroad worm (but distinct from the Phrixothrix beetle larva, also called railroad worm), is a species of fruit fly, and a pest of several types of fruits, especially apples. This species evolved about 150 years ago through a sympatric shift from the native host hawthorn to the domesticated apple species Malus domestica in the northeastern United States.

Apple maggot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sympatric speciation happens with both populations in the same area, as opposed to allopatric speciation, in which an isolated population evolves into a new species.

 

[QvQ]

Questions about Hawthorn Flies
1) Are there European Hawthorn Flies?
2) Are European and American Hawthorn Flies able to mate?
3) Did Europeans introduce European Hawthorns Flies into America?

There are also Mexican Hawthorn Flies that are being studied as a fly in the genetic mix.

"Retroviral Insertion:
DNA integration is a unique enzymatic process shared by all retroviruses and retrotransposons. During integration, double-stranded linear viral DNA is inserted into the host genome in a process catalyzed by the virus-encoded integrase."

This introduces new DNA material into the genome. (? research is new and ongoing as to whether and how viral material could be used by the host genome.)
Formation of Prokaryotes...?

Recombination is sexual reproduction. The chromosomes recombine existing genetic information.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The gap theory is problematic, because:
a) its theology is not accepted by broad Christian community
b) its explanations are not compatible with science

So, its an answer that fits nowhere.

Please explain where it does not fit with science. It surely fits better than the tradtional view of a 6,000 year old earth. As to the "broader Christian community" I doubt that many have even heard of the gap theory.

 

[The Barbarian]

"Retroviral Insertion:
DNA integration is a unique enzymatic process shared by all retroviruses and retrotransposons. During integration, double-stranded linear viral DNA is inserted into the host genome in a process catalyzed by the virus-encoded integrase."

This introduces new DNA material into the genome. (? research is new and ongoing as to whether and how viral material could be used by the host genome.)
Formation of Prokaryotes...?

Endogenous retroviruses are maybe 7% of the DNA of mammals. So not a large part of non-coding DNA. Still, they can also be used to evolve new genes...
J Virol
v.95(12); 2021 Jun

Switching Sides: How Endogenous Retroviruses Protect Us from Viral Infections​

...Although human ERVs (HERVs) are not known to produce infectious viral particles in vivo, this resurgence of virus-derived RNAs and proteins in our cells may seem alarming. However, many ERVs are not detrimental and have even been coopted for important physiological functions in the host. Besides well-known examples, such as syncytins that regulate placental development (6, 7), ERVs have become integral parts of immune defense mechanisms and help to fight off invading viral pathogens.

Recombination is sexual reproduction.

Sometimes. More accurately, sexual reproduction is recombination. But not the only form of recombination...

Genetic recombination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Barbarian]

Questions about Hawthorn Flies
1) Are there European Hawthorn Flies?

Not that I know of. I suspect there are other species of fly that have the same niche in the Old World.

2) Are European and American Hawthorn Flies able to mate?

Don't know that they exist.

3) Did Europeans introduce European Hawthorns Flies into America?

No. Hawthorns existed here, and these flies fed on them. They evolved because apples were introduced to the New World.

 

[QvQ]

No. Hawthorns existed here, and these flies fed on them. They evolved because apples were introduced to the New World.

There is a Mexican species of Hawthorn Fly that is being studied as Hawthorn Fly responsible, at least partly, for the Apple Maggot.

The Hawthorn tree can be found across the world in locations such as Europe North America and Asia.
Hawthorn Flies exist in Europe, but not certain if it is the same bug.
Sometimes the American Hawthorn Fly is called a "maggot" so not certain if it is a maggot of the same type of fly as the European Fly.

Genetic research is moving very fast.
And in the 1800's plants and insects were moving very fast also.

Endogenous retroviruses are maybe 7% of the DNA of mammals. So not a large part of non-coding DNA. Still, they can also be used to evolve new genes.

The fact is those retroviruses are one possible way to introduce new genetic material into genomes. That is why I didn't just post "recombination" because that retroviral DNA might have consequences in future recombinations.

I waded through Speciation, selective breeding, F1 Hybrids, Diploids, Tetraploids and polyploids at one time or another.
That is where the "boundaries" of Species, the difference between Type (hybrid or breed) and Species is being explored.
Hybrids, (mostly chemically induced chromosomal manipulations,) are infertile or not viable in the environment (long term.)
So far, no new species have been created. All hybrid polyploid Iris are Iris.
Also, retroviral insertional mutagenesis is being studied in an attempt to stabilize genetically modified hybrids.

So thanks for looking up those Hawthorns for me.
I was thinking it was the European in the mix but now I find out it might be Mexican.

 

[trophy33]

Please explain where it does not fit with science. It surely fits better than the tradtional view of a 6,000 year old earth. As to the "broader Christian community" I doubt that many have even heard of the gap theory.

The Gap theory does not explain layer after layer of more and more complex life we found in geological records.

Only progressive creationism (God creates in "waves") or theistic evolution (God uses development of bodies) can explain that.

 

[The Barbarian]

Hybrids, (mostly chemically induced chromosomal manipulations,) are infertile or not viable in the environment (long term.)
So far, no new species have been created.

The Role of Hybridization in Plant Speciation​

Annual Review of Plant Biology
Vol. 60:561-588 (Volume publication date 6/2/2009)

Abstract​

The importance of hybridization in plant speciation and evolution has been debated for decades, with opposing views of hybridization as either a creative evolutionary force or evolutionary noise. Hybrid speciation may occur at either the homoploid (i.e., between two species of the same ploidy) or the polyploid level, each with its attendant genetic and evolutionary consequences. Whereas allopolyploidy (i.e., resulting from hybridization and genome doubling) has long been recognized as an important mode of plant speciation, the implications of genome duplication have typically not been taken into account in most fields of plant biology. Recent developments in genomics are revolutionizing our views of angiosperm genomes, demonstrating that perhaps all angiosperms have likely undergone at least one round of polyploidization and that hybridization has been an important force in generating angiosperm species diversity. Hybridization and polyploid formation continue to generate species diversity, with several new allopolyploids having originated just within the past century or so. The origins of polyploid species—whether via hybridization between species or between genetically differentiated populations of a single species—and the immediate genetic consequences of polyploid formation are therefore receiving enthusiastic attention. The time is therefore right for a review of the role of hybridization in plant speciation.


In fact, on of the first observed speciations was a polyploid event, the evolution of O. gigas from O. lamarkana. It's more common in plants than in animals, but even there, it's not unknown:
Molecular Genetics and Genomics
297, pages 183–198 (2022)

Independent evolution of intermediate bill widths in a seabird clade​

"We found that Gough medium-billed prions belong to the same evolutionary lineage as macgillivrayi, representing a new population of MacGillivray’s prion that originated through a colonisation event from St Paul. We show that macgillivrayi’s medium bill width evolved through divergence (genetic drift) and independently from that of salvini, which evolved through hybridisation (gene flow). This represents the independent convergence towards a similarly medium-billed phenotype. The newly discovered MacGillivray’s prion population on Gough is of utmost conservation relevance, as the relict macgillivrayi population in the Indian Ocean is very small."

 

[QvQ]

that hybridization has been an important force in generating angiosperm species diversity.

No
Hybrid European Diploid Irises and hybrid Turkish Tetraploid Irises were successfully cross bred. Selectively bred hybrids are expressions of diversity within species.
A) Neither of these Irises were or are different species. This was only a recombination of existing genetic material within the species.
B) A diploid could express as tetraploid and a tetraploid could express as a diploid depending on the recombination of genetic material.

This is Noise
1) Iris Hybridizers have created more than 30,000 Iris hybrids from the Iris polyploids. Gough medium- billed Prions pales in comparison.
2) Both Polyploid Iris and Gough medium billed Prion are Hybrids.

Get an Iris catalogue and look at all the beautiful noise

several new allopolyploids having originated just within the past century

Shock the Box
*Example:
A) Colchicine has been used to chemically manipulate plant genomes since about 1900.
B) Colchicine must be suspect by about 1920 and almost assured by 1930 in genetic manipulation.
C) Hybrids created and/or manipulated by chemical or mechanical means are always hybrids, mostly sterile and not viable in the environment.

*(there are numerous methods now besides colchicine to manipulate genetic material.)

 

[The Barbarian]

The Role of Hybridization in Plant Speciation​

Annual Review of Plant Biology
Vol. 60:561-588 (Volume publication date 6/2/2009)

Abstract​

The importance of hybridization in plant speciation and evolution has been debated for decades, with opposing views of hybridization as either a creative evolutionary force or evolutionary noise. Hybrid speciation may occur at either the homoploid (i.e., between two species of the same ploidy) or the polyploid level, each with its attendant genetic and evolutionary consequences. Whereas allopolyploidy (i.e., resulting from hybridization and genome doubling) has long been recognized as an important mode of plant speciation, the implications of genome duplication have typically not been taken into account in most fields of plant biology. Recent developments in genomics are revolutionizing our views of angiosperm genomes, demonstrating that perhaps all angiosperms have likely undergone at least one round of polyploidization and that hybridization has been an important force in generating angiosperm species diversity. Hybridization and polyploid formation continue to generate species diversity, with several new allopolyploids having originated just within the past century or so. The origins of polyploid species—whether via hybridization between species or between genetically differentiated populations of a single species—and the immediate genetic consequences of polyploid formation are therefore receiving enthusiastic attention. The time is therefore right for a review of the role of hybridization in plant speciation.

No
Hybrid European Diploid Irises and hybrid Turkish Tetraploid Irises were successfully cross bred.

Actually, it's not uncommon with plants.

List of plant hybrids - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Colchicine won't produce hybrids.

 

[QvQ]

Colchicine won't produce hybrids.

Haven't studied it enough to say...however I do know it was extensively used in Iris hybridization as I believe only Tetraploid Amas could be naturally cross bred with Diploid Irises. That means the Diploid and Tetraploid were hybrids in one species.
Colchicine was used to expedite matters by artificially doubling the number of chromosomes in other hybrids, creating hybrids.

several new allopolyploids having originated

"Almost all allopolyploids are infertile due to not having full sets of chromosomes. Full sets of chromosomes are needed for the pairing of chromosomes during the process of meiosis."

And the rest of the "almost all" are not viable in the environment.

It is one of the research areas where I am seeing "retroviral insertion" mentioned.

 

[rturner76]

We are basically "hairless monkeys" well, most of us. Some dudes are pretty hairy. We defeated all of our competitors like the Neanderthals and genocided them. The evidence of this is there is a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA in most of a certain population of people but instead of mating with their small numbers, Africans eliminated them on that continent so it would seem. This would seem to make them the only 100% human population.

 

[Diamond72]

There is no evidence to suggest that apes evolved into humans.

The concept of the last universal common ancestor (LUCA) resembling a prokaryote and living in a water-based environment does bear some resemblance to simple aquatic organisms like certain types of bacteria or algae, which are sometimes colloquially referred to as "pond scum." However, it's important to clarify that when scientists discuss LUCA or the origins of life, they are referring to a much broader and foundational concept than the term "pond scum" might imply.

 

[Diamond72]

Colchicine won't produce hybrids.

Polyploidy and Hybridization: Colchicine itself does not directly produce hybrids between different species. Instead, it induces polyploidy in plants, which can then be used as a tool in hybridization efforts. Polyploidy can affect the reproductive processes of plants, potentially leading to the creation of hybrids between closely related species or different varieties within a species.

 

[The Barbarian]

Polyploidy and Hybridization: Colchicine itself does not directly produce hybrids between different species. Instead, it induces polyploidy in plants, which can then be used as a tool in hybridization efforts. Polyploidy can affect the reproductive processes of plants, potentially leading to the creation of hybrids between closely related species or different varieties within a species.

Polyploidy can directly produce new species.