Humans are unique, not evolved

The Barbarian

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There was a study published fairly recently that the jungles of Africa were not the original homeland of humans, and that they were only inhabited rather late.
Jungles would be a very poor candidate for the origin of the genus Homo. It's likely that the cooling climate in the Pleistocene, with the reduction in forests and increase in grasslands gave rise to hominins that eventually evolved to humans.
 
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Never heard of it. The evidence seems to indicate what is now Ethiopea and Somalia as a center of human evolution. But that could be an artifact of the strata being exposed there.

Some anatomically modern human fossils were found as far south as what is now S. Africa.
Never heard man evolved in Africa and migrated to Europe? That has been taught in public schools for the last 70+ years.
"Everybody knows that. man evolved in Africa and migrated to Europe." Ask anybody.

Some anatomically modern human fossils were found as far south as what is now S. Africa.
Man does get around.

Why, if man could walk out north of Africa to Europe but man couldn't walk south out of the Europe?

There are pockets of Mediterranean climate, such as in South America (Chili) where the population density increases. The climate of that slice of S.A. would be a factor,
There are geographical considerations, The Sahara Desert in Africa and the Desert South West confined the populations of the Mediterranean latitudes in both Northern Africa and America.

California is the most heavily populated State. It doesn't have much surface water. So when Columbus landed, water was a factor in the population density before technology solved that problem. California has the most homeless as people can live comfortably out on the street due to the favorable environment for the organism.

People tend to populate and thrive in a band of latitude around the world.
 
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he evidence seems to indicate what is now Ethiopea and Somalia as a center of human evolution.
Ethiopia as grassland? The Caucasus is also a prime candidate. Especially in the coincidence of agricultural advances from existing species, such as horses and cattle.

Food is an important factor in tracing man.
For instance, grapes could be an important indicator of a co-species to man as where grapes thrive, so does man. (jmo)
"Genetic study finds modern wine grapes first domesticated in South Caucasus "
Vita Vinifera subsp. sylvestris :: "it reached the Mediterranean probably from the Caucasian area and is now distributed from North Africa to Central Europe."
 
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The Barbarian

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Ethiopia as grassland? The Caucasus is also a prime candidate. Especially in the coincidence of agricultural advances from existing species, such as horses and cattle.
Only problem is we don't see hominins in Central Asia until much later. The first anatomically modern humans are found in Africa. And yes, North Africa was for a long time, wetter and greener.
 
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The Barbarian

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Why, if man could walk out north of Africa to Europe but man couldn't walk south out of the Europe?


Seems like they did, at least occasionally. Neandertals got as far as the Levant, and no farther south. Possibly being so cold-adapted, they either didn't like the area, or couldn't adapt to living there. Anatomically modern humans didn't move into Europe or Asia until the warming at the end of the ice age so it seems to have worked both ways.

Who started the story about man evolving in deepest Africa?

Never heard of it. The evidence seems to indicate what is now Ethiopea and Somalia as a center of human evolution.

Never heard man evolved in Africa and migrated to Europe?
I notice "deepest" dropped out there. You think the Horn of Africa is "deepest Africa?" The evidence is that man evolved in Africa. For a long time, the only place fossils of hominids were being formed was in Africa. Then first archaic H. sapiens moved into Europe and Asia and then toward the end of the ice age, anatomically modern humans moved out of Africa into Eurasia.
 
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I notice "deepest" dropped out there. You think the Horn of Africa is "deepest Africa?" The evidence is that man evolved in Africa. For a long time, the only place fossils of hominids were being formed was in Africa.
Do a poll. Ask how many Americans were taught in school that man evolved from apes in the jungles of Africa. That is deepest Africa, the sub Saharan jungles.
Where did that story get started? Everyone I know has been taught that as an unquestionable fact
As a Chinese man said, "In China you can criticize Darwin but you can't criticize the government. In America you can criticize the government but you can't criticize Darwin"
The evidence seems to indicate what is now Ethiopea and Somalia as a center of human evolution.

@Kale100 The oldest modern human fossil is in Morocco, Jebel Irhoud, 300,000 years. Then you have Omo Kibish at now 233,000 years, there's one in Israel 177,000 years ago.

From an article:
"It also brings it closer to the age given to what are today the oldest Homo sapiens remains, discovered in Morocco in 2017 and dated to 300,000 years ago.
The skulls and teeth unearthed in Jebel Irhoud torpedoed the long-held theory that we emerged from an East African "cradle of humankind."
 
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The Barbarian

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I notice "deepest" dropped out there. You think the Horn of Africa is "deepest Africa?" The evidence is that man evolved in Africa. For a long time, the only place fossils of hominids were being formed was in Africa.
Do a poll.
I have. Most paleontologists acknowledge anatomically modern humans first show up in Africa.
Where did that story get started?
Hard to say. I never saw that in any of my biology classes and certainly not in any university classes. And I've had quite a few in this area.
As a Chinese man said, "In China you can criticize Darwin but you can't criticize the government. In America you can criticize the government but you can't criticize Darwin"
Darwin has been criticized in the literature for his thought that acquired characteristics are heritable, for his thoughts on how baleen whales evolved, for his insistence that evolution is only gradual in all cases and many other things. Your Chinese guy doesn't seem to have much knowledge of the scientific literature.

@Kale100 The oldest modern human fossil is in Morocco, Jebel Irhoud, 300,000 years. Then you have Omo Kibish at now 233,000 years, there's one in Israel 177,000 years ago.
Yes modern human fossils. The first humans were rather different that anatomically modern humans. But they appear first in Eastern Africa. And yes, H. erectus made it as far as E. Asia, so H. sapiens wasn't the first humans out of Africa, much less anatomically modern H. sapiens.

The skulls and teeth unearthed in Jebel Irhoud torpedoed the long-held theory that we emerged from an East African "cradle of humankind."
This is an anatomically modern human, not the first human species. From your source:

"Omo I is the only fossil that has all the morphological characteristics of modern man," said Mounier.

Morocco is in Africa, BTW.
 
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Your Chinese guy doesn't seem to have much knowledge of the scientific literature.
Quote: Jun-Yuan Chen. Professor. Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS). Nanjing, China.
“In China we can criticize Darwin, but not the government; in America, you can criticize the government, but not Darwin.”
Yes modern human fossils. The first humans were rather different that anatomically modern humans.
TJebel Irhoud, at roughly 280,000 to 350,000 years old. If they (the dates) hold up, these dates would make the remains by far the earliest known examples of Homo sapiens.
 
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The Barbarian

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Quote: Jun-Yuan Chen. Professor. Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology, Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS). Nanjing, China.
“In China we can criticize Darwin, but not the government; in America, you can criticize the government, but not Darwin.”
Darwin has been criticized in the literature for his thought that acquired characteristics are heritable, for his thoughts on how baleen whales evolved, for his insistence that evolution is only gradual in all cases and many other things. Your Chinese guy doesn't seem to have much knowledge of the scientific literature.

The first humans were rather different than anatomically modern humans.

TJebel Irhoud, at roughly 280,000 to 350,000 years old. If they (the dates) hold up, these dates would make the remains by far the earliest known examples of Homo sapiens.
H. sapiens is far from the first known human.

H. habilis, for example, is known from remains over 2 million years old. TJebel Irhoud is in Africa, BTW. Darwin predicted that the earliest humans would be found in Africa.
 
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The first humans were rather different than anatomically modern humans.
Phrenology is a discredited "science"
H. habilis, for example, is known from remains over 2 million years old. TJebel Irhoud is in Africa, BTW. Darwin predicted that the earliest humans would be found in Africa.
And I predicted that Man is, was and shall be found within Latitudes defined roughly as Mediterranean. Clear around the world, based on the environment most favorable to the organism, therefore population patterns.
Morocco is more specifically within that Latitudinal band.
 
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The Barbarian

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And I predicted that Man is, was and shall be found within Latitudes defined roughly as Mediterranean.
It's pretty much an ideal latitude. You might want to read Jarred Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel. He came to a similar conclusion about why the Old World overcame the New World. But we see fossils of humans in S. Africa as well. We see lots of early anatomically modern humans in North Africa, because hominids evolved in Africa.
 
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The Barbarian

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The first humans were rather different than anatomically modern humans.
Phrenology is a discredited "science"
Perhaps you don't know what "phrenology" means. It has nothing whatever to do with paleontology.
H. habilis, for example, is known from remains over 2 million years old. TJebel Irhoud is in Africa, BTW. Darwin predicted that the earliest humans would be found in Africa.

1) Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and mother
That was... random.

There isn't any way to prove that H. Habilis was human or an ancestor.
The Theory of Evolution Requires ascent from simpler to more complex (Ape to Man)
H. habilis was just and early member of our genus. They were possibly our ancestors, but a closely related species might be the one. Evolutionary theory does not require "ascent from simpler to more complex." Indeed chimpanzees are highly evolved in a different direction than humans.

According to this theory, man is an ape.
Genetically, yes. Humans and chimpanzees are more closely related to each other than either is to any other ape.

Darwinist assume without any evidence that man is ape evolved from ape
Your fellow creationist Dr. Kurt Wise says that the many transitional homind fossils are among the very good evidence for macroevoltionary theory. But it's not just anatomy. As you know, genetic data also confirms anatomical evidence.
Darwinist assume without any evidence that man is ape evolved from ape

No, that's wrong. See above. Since both humans and chimpanzees have been completely sequenced, the evidence is compelling.
Man is free then to do whatever ape animals do. Unchain the "devil. There isn't any animal on earth who can sink to the level of depravity that man can devise when he looses his "ape." But then man transcends "ape" and is truly the Devils' spawn.
I never understood how people would conclude that if God made us by evolution, we were free to sin as we like. Very poor reasoning.

There are claims that our true "image" is Bonobos (based on today DNA.
No. In fact, the DNA of chimpanzees and bonobos are very, very similar to each other, with both about equally distant from humans. Bonobos have some human-like traits but then so do chimpanzees.
iu

Therefore the sexual habits of Bonobos are a pattern for man's behavior:
When two troops of chimpanzees meet, there is often violence. When two troops of bonobos meet there is often lots of sex. Sounds like we're kind of a blend of the two, doesn't it?

A case could be made for idolatry. (2nd Commandment)
If one makes an idol of evolution or creationism, and insists that believing or or the other is a requirement for salvation, maybe so.
 
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QvQ

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Your fellow creationist
I am not a creationist.
I have respectfully and carefully read and considered all of your arguments and conclusions.
I don't see that you have proved your point.

Meanwhile:
The deck is getting reshuffled:

Genetics:
1) MtDNA sequencing has the split hominidae / homo sapien 250,000 yrs ago
A) Homo Sapien, TJebel Irhoud, at roughly 280,000 to 350,000 years old
B) Neandertal and Homo Sapiens were in close proximity from an early time
C) TJebel Irhoud, was misidentified as Neandertal

All of these raise questions about
1) genetic sequencing,
2) genetic comparisons between species, Chimp, Neandertal and Human DNA
3) social and cultural relationship between Neandertals and Tlebel Ifhoud,
4) whether artifacts belonging to Tlebel Ifhoud have been incorrectly attributed to Neandertal.

There is a Georgia fossil (USSR) that is 1.8m yrs old. This will rewrite the narrative about who begot who.

Darwinism is a narrative. Sometimes I think the only thing that "evolves" is the storyline."
 
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The Barbarian

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Genetics:
1) MtDNA sequencing has the split hominidae / homo sapien 250,000 yrs ago
No. DNA sequencing has it closer to 5 million years ago. Hominidae includes apes outside of the genus Homo. You're thinking of hominini, all human species.
A) Homo Sapien, TJebel Irhoud, at roughly 280,000 to 350,000 years old
For decades, researchers seeking the origin of our species have scoured the Great Rift Valley of East Africa. Now, their quest has taken an unexpected detour west to Morocco: Researchers have redated a long-overlooked skull from a cave called Jebel Irhoud to a startling 300,000 years ago, and unearthed new fossils and stone tools. The result is the oldest well-dated evidence of Homo sapiens, pushing back the appearance of our kind by 100,000 years.

"This stuff is a time and a half older than anything else put forward as H. sapiens," says paleoanthropologist John Fleagle of the State University of New York in Stony Brook.

The discoveries, reported in Nature, suggest that our species came into the world face-first, evolving modern facial traits while the back of the skull remained elongated like those of archaic humans. The findings also suggest that the earliest chapters of our species's story may have played out across the African continent. "These hominins are on the fringes of the world at that time," says archaeologist Michael Petraglia of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany.


BTW, this is why scientists were so perplexed by the Piltdown Man hoax; Darwinan theory predicted the cranium would be apelike, with the rest of the skeleton more humanlike. Darwin got this one right, too. This human was much like H. sapiens, but much like H. heidelbergensis as well. the occipital bun is not unknown in H. sapiens, however. Neanderthals had them. But they are a primitive feature of hominids.


B) Neandertal and Homo Sapiens were in close proximity from an early time
Neanderthals were around long before anatomically modern humans. BTW, Neanderthals are almost certainly H. sapiens. Genetically, they are just a bit too close to be classified as separate species.

TJebel Irhoud, was misidentified as Neandertal
That occipital bun, I suppose. Maybe the teeth. Not much of a mental prominence (chin) but kinda. (Barbarian checks) Apparently, they did not have the "simian shelf" found in more archaic H. sapiens:
We identified a mosaic of features including facial, mandibular and dental morphology that aligns the Jebel Irhoud material with early or recent anatomically modern humans and more primitive neurocranial and endocranial morphology.
There is a Georgia fossil (USSR) that is 1.8m yrs old. This will rewrite the narrative about who begot who.
There are much older hominids in Asia. Now an anatomically modern human that old, would be of some interest. Got a link?
Darwinism is a narrative.
In the sense that Newtonism is a narrative. But evolutionary and gravitation theories are theories because they make testable predictions that have since been repeatedly validated by new evidence.

Sometimes I think the only thing that "evolves" is the storyline."
Scientific theories change as evidence requires. So genetics, for example, cleared up one major problem with Darwinian theory, at the same time that it ruled out the general inheritance of acquired characteristics.
 
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We identified a mosaic of features including facial, mandibular and dental morphology that aligns the Jebel Irhoud material with early or recent anatomically modern humans and more primitive neurocranial and endocranial morphology.
Again, Phrenology is a discredited "science"

There are much older hominids in Asia. Now an anatomically modern human that old, would be of some interest. Got a link?


It is a fossil. I read it was only a tooth but this link apparently is more.
In the sense that Newtonism is a narrative. But evolutionary and gravitation theories are theories because they make testable predictions that have since been repeatedly validated by new evidence.
1)Newtonianism is clearly defined objects in clearly defined systems operating under discoverable fixed laws (math)
i.e. The solar system is a clearly defined system operating under fixed laws.

2) Darwinism is a poorly defined system of poorly defined objects that don't operate at all except by the "assigned" proximity of the objects based on speculative "properties"
A) For Instance, this Georgia fossil may be an extinct line. However based on proximity to H. Heidelbergensis and Neandertal, Georgia will be assigned a place in the hierarchy (system) based on speculative properties and laws that operate only because an object has been placed in the hierarchy. No proof of the operation of the law is required other than the position assigned.
i,e. Put Georgia above H. Heidelbergensis and Neandertal and he is instantly daddy of both.

Newton was studying systems that were operating with objects in place. He was only determining the laws.
Darwinians create artificial systems with poorly defined objects operating by laws based on assigned positions and speculative properties

The timing of that "Man in Europe." There is a modern human in Europe for most of Neandertals period. That is going to have to be explained.....

And that just proved my point...Another inconvenient fact that has to be explained away, the narrative patched up.
I say we toss the narrative, admit we don't know, clear out all the clutter of stuff the Darwinist have been pretending to know and start with simple facts to create a new theory (description of a system).
 
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The Barbarian

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We identified a mosaic of features including facial, mandibular and dental morphology that aligns the Jebel Irhoud material with early or recent anatomically modern humans and more primitive neurocranial and endocranial morphology.
Again, Phrenology is a discredited "science"
I don't think you know what "phrenology" means. None of this has anything to do with phrenology.
There are much older hominids in Asia. Now an anatomically modern human that old, would be of some interest. Got a link?(Barbarian checks)



www.newscientist.com

Complete skull of 1.8-million-year-old hominin found

A full skull of a Homo erectus has been unearthed in Georgia, and it suggests a radical rethink of our evolutionary history
www.newscientist.com
www.newscientist.com

Interesting, but not even close to anatomically modern humans. Human, though. The species that immediately preceded H. sapiens. In fact, later H. erectus are difficult to distinguish from archaic H. sapiens.

I read it was only a tooth but this link apparently is more.
Yep.
In the sense that Newtonism is a narrative. But evolutionary and gravitation theories are theories because they make testable predictions that have since been repeatedly validated by new evidence.

Newtonianism is clearly defined objects in clearly defined systems operating under discoverable fixed laws (math)
i.e. The solar system is a clearly defined system operating under fixed laws.
Evolution is clearly defined processes in clearly defined ways operating under discoverable fixed laws (math).
i.e. evolution is a change in allele frequencies in a population, which is easily measurable.

Here's a simple introduction:

Screenshot 2023-08-26 at 09-48-39 predatorprey.pdf.jpg


Everything looks simple if you don't know anything about it. It's a bit more complicated than physics, because it requires statistical analyses, but it's much, much more mathematical than you imagined.

Maybe it would be easier to start with a model for identifying selective pressure. The Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium does just that.

Take a look at it, play with the factors. Do you see why any result contrary to the predicted equilibrium indicates selective pressure?

Take a look at the Georgian skull. Why is there natural selection for brow ridges in early humans but not in H. Sapiens?
 
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QvQ

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Everything looks simple if you don't know anything about it.
I know about it. It is AUM (animal unit per month) is an example of the formulas to calculate the. equilibrium. It is much simpler and more complicated than that. In fact, in practice much more complicated.
Every species is a predator. Plants use up the inorganic /organic material in the soil. That is why we add fertilizer and do crop rotations.
Bugs, birds, coyotes, gophers, rustlers predators all.
Interesting Fact: Neandertals have modern man Y Chromosome.

Now I am going to propose:
System with Boundaries
Time: -40,000 to -500, 000 yrs ago.
System MAN
A) Interbreeding Contemporary
1) Morocco Jebel Irhoud,
2) Israel Nesher Ramla?
3) Ethiopia Omo?
4) Spain Neandertal
5) Spain Denisovan

Geographic Area (population density)
map.gif
 
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The Barbarian

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Every species is a predator.
No. Predation is a specific behavior that requires killing other organisms for sustenance. This excludes plants (with a few exceptions that prey on insects), parasites that do not kill their hosts, and so on.

Plants use up the organic material in the soil.
Actually, plants tend to increase organic material in soil. That's why plants in rock crevices tend to produce soil over a period of time. They tend to deplete certain minerals and nitrogen. But that's not predation.

Insects, coyotes, gophers, rustlers predators all.
Mosquitos, for example, are parasites. At least the females are. The males eat nectar from flowers which benefits the flowers via pollenation.


Now I am going to propose:
System with Boundaries
Time: -40,000 to -500, 000 yrs ago.
System MAN
A) Interbreeding Contemporary
1) Morocco Jebel Irhoud,
2) Israel Nesher Ramla
3) Ethiopia? Omo
4) Spain Neandertal
5 Spain Denisovan
Close, but no cigar...

Abstract

Anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens, AMH) began spreading across Eurasia from Africa and adjacent Southwest Asia about 50,000–55,000 years ago (ca. 50–55 ka).
PNAS Vol. 115 | No. 34


Archaic humans got there much, much earlier...

Yuanmou Man (simplified Chinese: 元谋人; traditional Chinese: 元謀人; pinyin: Yuánmóu Rén, Homo erectus yuanmouensis) is a subspecies of H. erectus which inhabited the Yuanmou Basin in Yunnan Province, southwestern China, roughly 1.7 million years ago. It is the first fossil evidence of humans in China, though they probably reached the region by at least 2 million years ago.

Denisovans, Neanderthals and Us

Over the past decade or so, evidence has been piling up that although pretty much all paleontologists agree that humans did evolve in Africa and move out from there. We did meet other human species — specifically Denisovans and Neanderthals — as we moved out into the world. It is possible that the later Hss interacted with the descendants of the earlier pulse as well. All living humans are still one species. However, it is now undeniable that we share different levels of the mixture of species which developed and died out in Eurasia. Those species are no longer with us except as tiny pieces of DNA.

The paleontological community is still somewhat divided on what that means to this ancient debate: John Hawks argues that "we are all multiregionalists now," but Chris Stringer recently disagreed by saying "we are all out-of-Africanists who accept some multi-regional contributions."


Neanderthals and Denisovans had a much greater distribution than what you've suggested here. And we have genetic evidence for at least one other human subspecies in addtion to Neanderthals and Denisovans.
 
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The Barbarian

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I know about it. It is AUM. It is an equilibrium. It is much simpler and more complicated than that. In fact, in practice much more
I don't see what assets under management has to do with it. But the point remains. Much of evolutionary theory involves a lot of mathematical work. Were you aware that information theory was first worked out for biological evolution?

IEEE Eng Med Biol Mag. 2006; 25(1): 30–33.

Claude Shannon: Biologist

The Founder of Information Theory Used Biology to Formulate the Channel Capacity
Claude Shannon founded information theory in the 1940s. The theory has long been known to be closely related to thermodynamics and physics through the similarity of Shannon's uncertainty measure to the entropy function. Recent work using information theory to understand molecular biology has unearthed a curious fact: Shannon's channel capacity theorem only applies to living organisms and their products, such as communications channels and molecular machines that make choices from several possibilities. Information theory is therefore a theory about biology, and Shannon was a biologist.


Shannon did some very important work in mathematical evolutionary theory at Cold Harbor:

One interesting episode in this mid-century era concerned Claude Shannon, the father of Information Theory and one of the most influential applied mathematicians of the 20th century. It is a little known fact that Shannon’s Ph.D. thesis, submitted in 1940 to the Mathematics Department at MIT, was focused not on communication theory but on population genetics and was based in large part on work carried out at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. At the time, Shannon’s Ph.D. supervisor at MIT, the great inventor and engineer Vannevar Bush, was president of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, the parent institution of the Department of Genetics at Cold Spring Harbor, and he arranged for Shannon to visit the Laboratory to work with Barbara Burks, a highly respected behavioral geneticist with interests in mathematics and statistics. Shannon spent the summer of 1939 at the Laboratory and wrote a highly original thesis on an algebra that described genetic changes in an evolving Mendelian population.
 
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