Humans are capable of being sinless

[linssue55]

But you are missing the point. Sin is not about what we do, per se, as much as it is about who we are and how we are related to God. The message of grace is that we are no longer measured by what we do (the Law) but on the basis of who we are in Christ. Therefore, the old list of "do's" and "don'ts" that used to define sin are no longer valid. The criterion for sin, under the New Covenant in Christ, is whether or not one is united to God through faith in Christ. So then, to be sinful is to deliberately walk away from God, to decline the saving grace of Christ.

The problem with Calvinism's defintion of sin is that it hasn't made it past the book of Exodus...

We are what we think...then what we think becomes our actions...

 

[Forest]

I hardly see how these verses prove that some sins are worse than others...

Then tell me what Jesus meant by "greater sin", and tell me why Paul mentions that fornication is a sin against the body and that your body is a temple of the Holy Ghost.

And then you have blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is a worse sin, because it is unforgivable.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Not just every deed, but every thought is known by God. I don't believe that any can avoid sin. That is why we say the lords prayer.

 

[linssue55]

Why would God tell humans to not sin if they are not able to? That's pretty sick of God to expect something that we cannot possibly do. More than sick, it is unjust, and God should have to answer for demanding something that is impossible. On the other hand, if by the grace of Christ and the power of Spirit, one is able to not sin, then this problem disappears...



I do not deny that we "still sometimes sin." The issue, however, is if "sometimes sinning" is a necessary condition, or something that is only indicative of a lack of submission to the lordship of Christ...



I do not think this is a very good example. David walked into this sin with eyes wide open. It was something that he could have easily avoided by doing what he was supposed to be doing (the time of the year when kings go to war...).

Sorry we are getting no where here, just going around and round basically saying the same things over and over. You are entitled to your oppinion and beliefs, as am I. I will always stick to my beliefs for I refuse to deny the old sin nature will always live in this body. If you say you have the capabilities to never sin again then I say good for you.
David is an EXCELLENT example are you kidding....being a Super Grace Believer he knew what he was doing, but that is not the sin that first got him out of fellowship to begin with. I am sorry but a sin is a sin is a sin, whether we do it with complete knowledge or out of ignorance. That is like saying my sin was a better sin because it was more refined and more dignified, COME ON GIVE ME A BREAK. If you want to go through life thinking you won't sin again, then like I said good for you.

 

[No Swansong]

Well, then all I have to say to you is agree to disagree. You havn't proven its impossible yet, but if you wish to believe its impossible, then just agree to disagree with me.

I haven't finished reading this thread so if this is covered later I apologize. I would like to point out to our young poster that since he is the one who presented the thesis, it is his responsibility to prove it, not the responsibility of those who disagree to disprove it.

With that said I do believe that Wesley was on to something but haven't given it due attention to comment.

 

[Desolate Owl]

Sorry we are getting no where here, just going around and round basically saying the same things over and over.

This is a good point linssue. I think there has been a lot of assertions made by people (myself included) with perhaps too little Scripture and reasoning used to back them up. On this note, I did present a few verses in my previous response to you. Before I post any more, could I get you to respond to that post?

You are entitled to your oppinion and beliefs, as am I.

True, we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, but obviously we are not all correct.

I will always stick to my beliefs for I refuse to deny the old sin nature will always live in this body.

You have stated what you believe many times, but could you present your argument to back it up? Let's say I grant that the old sin nature will always live in us, why does this lead to the conclusion that we can't stop sinning?

If you say you have the capabilities to never sin again then I say good for you. David is an EXCELLENT example are you kidding....being a Super Grace Believer he knew what he was doing, but that is not the sin that first got him out of fellowship to begin with.

This does not disprove that people can stop sinning. It does prove that David didn't stop, not that he couldn't stop.

If you want to go through life thinking you won't sin again, then like I said good for you.

The argument is not that we won't sin, but that we could stop if we choose to.

 

[linssue55]

This is a good point linssue. I think there has been a lot of assertions made by people (myself included) with perhaps too little Scripture and reasoning used to back them up. On this note, I did present a few verses in my previous response to you. Before I post any more, could I get you to respond to that post?



True, we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, but obviously we are not all correct.



You have stated what you believe many times, but could you present your argument to back it up? Let's say I grant that the old sin nature will always live in us, why does this lead to the conclusion that we can't stop sinning?



This does not disprove that people can stop sinning. It does prove that David didn't stop, not that he couldn't stop.



The argument is not that we won't sin, but that we could stop if we choose to.

Ok here is the plain simple answer....No... we can not stop even if we choose to stop, it is impossible in the flesh...period!

 

[depthdeception]

Ok here is the plain simple answer....No... we can not stop even if we choose to stop, it is impossible in the flesh...period!

Masterful argument...

 

[Desolate Owl]

Ok here is the plain simple answer....No... we can not stop even if we choose to stop, it is impossible in the flesh...period!

Um, I don't mean to be rude, but do you expect people to be convinced by this? People aren't going to believe something just because you said it. This is exactly why arguments go round and round in circles without ever getting anywhere. People refuse to discuss things and simply assert that they are right over and over. Please present the Scriptures and reasoning that you used to come to your conclusion. Otherwise, I will have to conclude that this is something you've been taught, whether by a pastor, in a book, etc., but never gone to the trouble of studying and thinking to see if it was true. I continue to address your posts point by point, yet you do not respond to this. All you do is restate what you believe. Perhaps this is because you have no response?

 

[linssue55]

Um, I don't mean to be rude, but do you expect people to be convinced by this? People aren't going to believe something just because you said it. This is exactly why arguments go round and round in circles without ever getting anywhere. People refuse to discuss things and simply assert that they are right over and over. Please present the Scriptures and reasoning that you used to come to your conclusion. Otherwise, I will have to conclude that this is something you've been taught, whether by a pastor, in a book, etc., but never gone to the trouble of studying and thinking to see if it was true. I continue to address your posts point by point, yet you do not respond to this. All you do is restate what you believe. Perhaps this is because you have no response?

There is no scripture that I know of that tells me after salvation I CAN become sinless until the day I die. I am sorry but this is just common sense. I know as I have grown, I have sinned less and less. But this thing that lives inside of me has power too and it and I go round and round sometimes. I am a very realistic person, I know how this world works and who is in this world, I am HUMANand flesh. Even some of the greatest believers in the bible fall after salvation. God knows this...but He still oves us, and I am STILL going to Heaven. I am sorry and yes we could go round and round, but what's the point. This is personal beliefs on both side.

 

[Desolate Owl]

Hi linssue,

There is no scripture that I know of that tells me after salvation I CAN become sinless until the day I die.

You are correct. There are no Scriptures that directly say this. There are also no Scriptures that say this is impossible. There are also no Scriptures that directly say that the Holy Spirit is God (as far as I know). Not all the truth in the Bible is stated in an obvious way. There are things which are implied, and there are things which are conclusions drawn from other truths. Here are some Scriptures and my conclusions. Feel free to disagree, but please give me some reasons why I am wrong.

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
- 1 Corinthians 10:13

This verse says that God doesn't let us get tempted beyond our ability to resist. So every time I am tempted to sin, I should be able to choose not to sin. If I do this every time, I would not sin anymore. Maybe I won't avoid sin everytime, but I could avoid sin every time.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
- 1 John 2:1

John has written his letter so that we won't sin. Notice the conditional "if" in "if anyone does sin." This implies that we can stop sinning, but if we do still sin, Jesus is our advocate before the Father and has paid for our sins.

"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
- 1 Peter 1:14-16

This verse says that we should be obedient and holy in all our conduct.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
- Romans 6:1-2

Paul finds it outrageous for people to consider continuing in sin. It implies that it is possible for Christians to stop sinning.

I also find the following argument quite convincing, although some people may disagree with premise (2).

1. God commands us to obey Him completely.
2. God does not ask us to do things that we cannot do.
3. Therefore, we can obey God completely.

I am sorry but this is just common sense. I know as I have grown, I have sinned less and less. But this thing that lives inside of me has power too and it and I go round and round sometimes. I am a very realistic person, I know how this world works and who is in this world, I am HUMANand flesh. Even some of the greatest believers in the bible fall after salvation. God knows this...but He still oves us, and I am STILL going to Heaven. I am sorry and yes we could go round and round, but what's the point. This is personal beliefs on both side.

From what you are saying, it sounds as if your beliefs are based on your experience. I would encourage you to look at the Scripture verses I have given above. If you disagree with my interpretation and have good reasons for doing so, that's great. Please show me where I'm wrong and how you see these verses. I'm quite open to being wrong about that. I won't be convince by another person's personal experience with sin though. Experience is valuable and can teach us a lot, but if there is better evidence from the Bible, I think it is much better to go with that.

Also, I do struggle with sin in my life. I am not attempting to prove this point to claim 'perfection' for myself. While I believe we can stop sinning, I think our focus should be on loving God completely and being obedient to Him, not measuring ourselves and our level of holiness. The main issue I have (and I'm not trying to point the finger ) is when people take a defeatist approach to sin and excuse it through the 'sin nature'. It starts to be that we can't help but sin. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I believe we can have victory. Perhaps part of the reason sin dominates so many people is that they refuse to believe that they can choose not to do it. Thank you for discussing this with me. I am happy to continue doing so, but if you feel that we are not getting anywhere, that's OK.

-Owl

 

[depthdeception]

There is no scripture that I know of that tells me after salvation I CAN become sinless until the day I die.

Consequently, there are also no Scriptures that reveal directly that you are doomed to sin until the day you die...

But this thing that lives inside of me has power too and it and I go round and round sometimes.

But there is also something else that is supposed to live inside you, and if the bible is correct, the Holy Spirit is supposed to be infinitely more powerful than the sinful nature.

I am HUMANand flesh.

Good. So was Jesus. Yet the bible said he was without sin. Surely there is something in his example that is supposed to be available for us, as well. Otherwise, what is the point of the Incarnation?

Even some of the greatest believers in the bible fall after salvation. God knows this...but He still oves us, and I am STILL going to Heaven. I am sorry and yes we could go round and round, but what's the point. This is personal beliefs on both side.

No one is doubting your salvation. The issue is what the quality of this life is supposed to be. I believe, like Switchfoot says, that "we were made to live for so much more." Salvation is not limited to making it to heaven. Rather, I think it is more concerned with transforming the lives that we live in the present. We should never become so "heaven-focused" that we lose sight that Christ became incarnate that our lives here and now might be transformed.

 

[StevenL]

Yep. People who are born from above by the Seed of God CANNOT live in sin. 1 John 3. So of course, we can live free from sin.

Nothing is impossible to the one who believes. <<<<Words of Yeshua.

 

[linssue55]

Hi linssue,



You are correct. There are no Scriptures that directly say this. There are also no Scriptures that say this is impossible. There are also no Scriptures that directly say that the Holy Spirit is God (as far as I know).

God the Holy Spiirt in almost everywhere in the entire bible, He is the "Revealer"-"Restorer". He is the third Person of the Godhead-Trinity.It just sounds like you have a hard time figuring out which of the three are playing a part in the verse. All three of the Godhead for example are in the very first verse in the bible....gen 1;1 "In eternity past God (Elohim= all three) created the heavens and the earth". Not all the truth in the Bible is stated in an obvious way. There are things which are implied, and there are things which are conclusions drawn from other truths. Here are some Scriptures and my conclusions. Feel free to disagree, but please give me some reasons why I am wrong.[/QUOTE] This is why we need to know the bible from the original languages using I.C.E, anthropopathisms, anthrophamorphisms, syntax, line upon line, pre-cept upon pre-cept, Hermeuetics, semantics, parables, tenses, verbs, voices (ie:active vioce) etc....etc.

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."
- 1 Corinthians 10:13 [/QOUTE] This is 1 John 1:9.

This verse says that God doesn't let us get tempted beyond our ability to resist. So every time I am tempted to sin, I should be able to choose not to sin. If I do this every time, I would not sin anymore. Maybe I won't avoid sin everytime, but I could avoid sin every time.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
- 1 John 2:1

John has written his letter so that we won't sin. Notice the conditional "if" in "if anyone does sin." This implies that we can stop sinning, but if we do still sin, Jesus is our advocate before the Father and has paid for our sins.

"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
- 1 Peter 1:14-16

This verse says that we should be obedient and holy in all our conduct.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
- Romans 6:1-2Yes I know all the verses. This "if" you are taliking about in this verse...is used in the Original language is in the... 4th class condition, meaning..."wish it was (true) but it isn't". There are 4 ways to use "if" in the bible. Here they are...1. "it's true"...2."It's not true"....3.."Mayb yes or maybe no"....the 4th you have. Like I said you have to know the originals.

Paul finds it outrageous for people to consider continuing in sin. It implies that it is possible for Christians to stop sinning.[/QUOTE] Paul also said this...."For the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do". Rom 7:19

I also find the following argument quite convincing, although some people may disagree with premise (2).

1. God commands us to obey Him completely.
2. God does not ask us to do things that we cannot do.
3. Therefore, we can obey God completely. [/QOUTE] Of COURSE He does. He is our parent, this is where realist comes in...you tell your son, "Stay out of the cookie jar", and he REALLY wants obey you, but the temptation of the flesh (and the taste buds) he CAN'T.



From what you are saying, it sounds as if your beliefs are based on your experience. I would encourage you to look at the Scripture verses I have given above. If you disagree with my interpretation and have good reasons for doing so, that's great. Please show me where I'm wrong and how you see these verses. I'm quite open to being wrong about that. I won't be convince by another person's personal experience with sin though. Experience is valuable and can teach us a lot, but if there is better evidence from the Bible, I think it is much better to go with that.

Also, I do struggle with sin in my life. I am not attempting to prove this point to claim 'perfection' for myself. While I believe we can stop sinning, I think our focus should be on loving God completely and being obedient to Him, not measuring ourselves and our level of holiness. The main issue I have (and I'm not trying to point the finger ) is when people take a defeatist approach to sin and excuse it through the 'sin nature'. It starts to be that we can't help but sin. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I believe we can have victory. Perhaps part of the reason sin dominates so many people is that they refuse to believe that they can choose not to do it. Thank you for discussing this with me. I am happy to continue doing so, but if you feel that we are not getting anywhere, that's OK.[/QUOTE] I base my Christian life on Knowledge and the Love of the Lord, NOT experience. I am not one of those Christians that has to have an experience of any kind, in fact quite the opposite, I rely totally on the word. I know I will continue to sin, I do not make light of it, on the contrary. I have a very Personal Relationship with the Lord, and I know as a Priest and an Ambassador for Christ my duty's as a Christian. All sins are private...Privacy of the Priesthood. I do the best I can and when I don't I use 1 John 1:9, He put it there because He KNEW we would need it.

-Owl[/QUOTE]

 

[linssue55]

Consequently, there are also no Scriptures that reveal directly that you are doomed to sin until the day you die...



But there is also something else that is supposed to live inside you, and if the bible is correct, the Holy Spirit is supposed to be infinitely more powerful than the sinful nature. Of course, we are in-dwelt with all three persons of the Godhead and when I am FILLED with Spirit I am in fellowship and when I am not I am Carnal, just like the rest of us. Use 1 John 1:9



Good. So was Jesus. Yet the bible said he was without sin. Surely there is something in his example that is supposed to be available for us, as well. Otherwise, what is the point of the Incarnation? Our Lord did not have the imputation of Adams original sin in Him...the old sin nature...God is God...the perfect God man...God CANNOT have the "OLD MAN" in Him ...a blasphemous thought....God cannot be associated with sin in anyway, except when He bore our sins on the cross, and even God the Father and God the Holy Spiirit turned their backs on Him for they can't look upon sin, that's why the Lord said "My God (to God the Father) my God (to God the Holy Spiirt) why have you forsaken me"? When we die we will no longer have the OSN in us which will make us incapable of sinning.



No one is doubting your salvation. The issue is what the quality of this life is supposed to be. I believe, like Switchfoot says, that "we were made to live for so much more." Salvation is not limited to making it to heaven. Rather, I think it is more concerned with transforming the lives that we live in the present. We should never become so "heaven-focused" that we lose sight that Christ became incarnate that our lives here and now might be transformed.

My quality of life is wonderful, I have maximum doctrine residing in my soul and I USE it, I study all of my spare time and have for 31 years and have been learning the original langusges ie: I.C.E.. and believe me you cannot be lazy in this, I do more than read the bible I LEARN it and the more I learn the better I can serve the Lord, which is my only goal in life..... Heaven focused?.... you had better be.... God say's "Turn from the darkness of this world and turn towards the light of eternity". "Who is of this world is not of Me" .

 

[linssue55]

Owl I am sorry about my post to you. I was trying something new in the post and obviously it didn't work.

My answers are in there, you just have to read again what you stated to me. and my answers follows. Sorry!

 

[Desolate Owl]

Hi linssue,

Heh, heh, don't worry about your post, but you'll have to forgive me is I misquote or accidently leave some bits out.

God the Holy Spiirt in almost everywhere in the entire bible, He is the "Revealer"-"Restorer". He is the third Person of the Godhead-Trinity.It just sounds like you have a hard time figuring out which of the three are playing a part in the verse. All three of the Godhead for example are in the very first verse in the bible....gen 1;1 "In eternity past God (Elohim= all three) created the heavens and the earth".

I agree that God the Holy Spirit is everywhere in the Bible. I also believe in the Trinity. What I'm saying is that you won't find a clear cut verse saying that the Holy Spirit is God or a verse that clearly says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the one God. Are you sure that 'Elohim=all three'? I don't know Hebrew, but I thought that Elohim was a plural noun which takes a singular verb in reference to God. This indicates plurality, but not necessarily three. It also still wouldn't indicate who that 3 consisted of anyway. Maybe the Spirit wasn't one of the 3? My point is that verses don't always explicitly state things.

This is why we need to know the bible from the original languages using I.C.E, anthropopathisms, anthrophamorphisms, syntax, line upon line, pre-cept upon pre-cept, Hermeuetics, semantics, parables, tenses, verbs, voices (ie:active vioce) etc....etc.

I agree.

This is 1 John 1:9.

What do you mean? 1 Corinthians 10:13 says that we are not tempted beyond our ability, not that we'll be tempted beyond our ability, but it's OK because there's forgiveness. A way of escape implies avoiding sin, not avoiding punishment through forgiveness.

Yes I know all the verses. This "if" you are taliking about in this verse...is used in the Original language is in the... 4th class condition, meaning..."wish it was (true) but it isn't". There are 4 ways to use "if" in the bible. Here they are...1. "it's true"...2."It's not true"....3.."Mayb yes or maybe no"....the 4th you have. Like I said you have to know the originals.

According to what you just said, we end up with this: "But if anyone does sin (I wish it was true, but it isn't), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." I must be missing what you're saying here. For one, you've just supported my argument, and two, John hopes that these people do sin. I'm not sure that your definitions of the class conditions are correct, but I'll let you clarify this first.

Paul also said this...."For the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do". Rom 7:19

This verse needs to be taken in context. Paul is not referring to his present experience in this passage. He is using a common rhetorical practice known as "speech in character". If he is referring to himself, then he has completely contradicted what he says in chapters 6 and 8. Look at verse 14:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."

Paul has just been making the case that we are free from sin and chapter 8 says we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.

Of COURSE He does. He is our parent, this is where realist comes in...you tell your son, "Stay out of the cookie jar", and he REALLY wants obey you, but the temptation of the flesh (and the taste buds) he CAN'T.

This brings it back to experience though. How do you know the son CAN'T obey? Maybe he just WON'T obey. How far can we take it? Can the husband who commits adultery choose not to sin? Maybe he couldn't help it. Should his wife be angry or understanding? If he couldn't help it, why should we blame him?

I base my Christian life on Knowledge and the Love of the Lord, NOT experience. I am not one of those Christians that has to have an experience of any kind, in fact quite the opposite, I rely totally on the word. I know I will continue to sin, I do not make light of it, on the contrary. I have a very Personal Relationship with the Lord, and I know as a Priest and an Ambassador for Christ my duty's as a Christian. All sins are private...Privacy of the Priesthood.

What do you mean by 'all sins are private'?

I do the best I can and when I don't I use 1 John 1:9, He put it there because He KNEW we would need it.

I don't disagree with that, but there's nothing from the verse to say that we must continue to sin. Using it only once would prove the fact that we need it.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

At the request of another member, I will start a thread on this topic. I stated that human's are capable of being sinless in another thread.

Anyway here is my point. After Baptism, I feel that a human has the full capability of living sinless, contrary to what many other Christians believe. Does it mean it happen's much, probably not. But, a person has the full capability of being sinless after Baptism. Anyone who want's to add anything, feel free.

Theoretically possible, but on a practical level, it is impossible.

 

[linssue55]

Hi linssue,

Heh, heh, don't worry about your post, but you'll have to forgive me is I misquote or accidently leave some bits out.



I agree that God the Holy Spirit is everywhere in the Bible. I also believe in the Trinity. What I'm saying is that you won't find a clear cut verse saying that the Holy Spirit is God or a verse that clearly says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the one God. Are you sure that 'Elohim=all three'? I don't know Hebrew, but I thought that Elohim was a plural noun which takes a singular verb in reference to God. This indicates plurality, but not necessarily three. It also still wouldn't indicate who that 3 consisted of anyway. Maybe the Spirit wasn't one of the 3? My point is that verses don't always explicitly state things. I have posted a thread the "Godhead, do you belive", it is in general theology.



I agree.



What do you mean? 1 Corinthians 10:13 says that we are not tempted beyond our ability, not that we'll be tempted beyond our ability, but it's OK because there's forgiveness. A way of escape implies avoiding sin, not avoiding punishment through forgiveness. 1 John 1: is used for confession only. 1 Corn you are refering to has nothing to do with 1 John 1:9. Apples and oranges. 1 Corn here is the testing by the Lord to test our faith as we grow, but He never puts on us anymore than we can handle. Like Job, the Lord allowed Satan to test Job, but "do not kill him". The Lord knew Job could handle this testing.


According to what you just said, we end up with this: "But if anyone does sin (I wish it was true, but it isn't), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." I must be missing what you're saying here. For one, you've just supported my argument, and two, John hopes that these people do sin. I'm not sure that your definitions of the class conditions are correct, but I'll let you clarify this first. No I did not. your previous verse (?) stated "if"...this if in that verse ins in the 4th class condition. I am not sure what you are saying here either. I am just stating to you the IF you were using...is in the 4th calss, meaning...we would like not to sin, but we can't stop, so there fore it is NOT TRUE that we CAN stop.



This verse needs to be taken in context. Paul is not referring to his present experience in this passage. He is using a common rhetorical practice known as "speech in character". If he is referring to himself, then he has completely contradicted what he says in chapters 6 and 8. Look at verse 14: Again the bible must be interpreted in the time in which it was written. I am not saying Paul had sinned here, he reflects what happens in his soul when he is out of fellowship, and how terrible the flesh is, and how the flesh has such a terrible hold. He knows it is a constant treat, and it is an extreme burden, the heaviness of it.

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."

Paul has just been making the case that we are free from sin and chapter 8 says we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. yes at the point of Salvation. God removed all past sins up to that point one believe. Now if you are refering to the NEW believer not sinning, that is absolutely wrong. Since he/she knows nothing of Gods mandates at that point, they will continue to take on sin until they learn doctrine.


This brings it back to experience though. How do you know the son CAN'T obey? Maybe he just WON'T obey. How far can we take it? Can the husband who commits adultery choose not to sin? Maybe he couldn't help it. Should his wife be angry or understanding? If he couldn't help it, why should we blame him? No experience is that paradox in life that we store (memories) in our frontal lobe and builds a frame of reference to apply or not apply in life. The cookie jar is an overt action. There are hundreds of sins.....that are listed in three categories...1. mental attitude sins....2...sins of the tounge....3....overt sins. Sins come from actual THINKING...then left unchecked can manifest itself into the other catagories. Experience is what happens in life whether we are in fellowship or not, again that paradox. Sins are what we think and do.



What do you mean by 'all sins are private'? We have the privacy of the priesthood as believers, this is a patr of our invisible assets gien to us by God (along with so much more) and when we sin our sins are the Lords and my business, not for public display. That's privacy. That's why when we site our sins to the God the Father, they are between Him and I.



I don't disagree with that, but there's nothing from the verse to say that we must continue to sin. Using it only once would prove the fact that we need it.

There is nothing that says either way. This is an individual CHOICE of every believer and my choice is to believe that it is impossilbe to stop as long as we live in this flesh, and this is for God to know anyway, for again privacy of the Priesthood. So I think we have said it all, and the only sins we should be concerned with anyway is our own, and let God worry about the rest. Faithrest in the Lord, for He knows all things.

 

[Desolate Owl]

Hi linssue,

I think you need to re-read the 'experimental' post you made to me, as you seem to now be acting as if you didn't say things which you did.

I agree that God the Holy Spirit is everywhere in the Bible. I also believe in the Trinity. What I'm saying is that you won't find a clear cut verse saying that the Holy Spirit is God or a verse that clearly says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the one God. Are you sure that 'Elohim=all three'? I don't know Hebrew, but I thought that Elohim was a plural noun which takes a singular verb in reference to God. This indicates plurality, but not necessarily three. It also still wouldn't indicate who that 3 consisted of anyway. Maybe the Spirit wasn't one of the 3? My point is that verses don't always explicitly state things. I have posted a thread the "Godhead, do you belive", it is in general theology.

I think you've missed what I'm saying. I don't have difficulty believing in the Trinity. What I'm saying is that the verses don't plainly state it.

1 John 1: is used for confession only. 1 Corn you are refering to has nothing to do with 1 John 1:9. Apples and oranges. 1 Corn here is the testing by the Lord to test our faith as we grow, but He never puts on us anymore than we can handle. Like Job, the Lord allowed Satan to test Job, but "do not kill him". The Lord knew Job could handle this testing.

If they're apples and oranges, then why did you say 'This is 1 John 1:9.' as a response to 1 Corinthians 10:13 in your previous post. You need to reread what you said.

No I did not. your previous verse (?) stated "if"...this if in that verse ins in the 4th class condition. I am not sure what you are saying here either. I am just stating to you the IF you were using...is in the 4th calss, meaning...we would like not to sin, but we can't stop, so there fore it is NOT TRUE that we CAN stop.

Again, why then did you say "This "if" you are taliking about in this verse...is used in the Original language is in the... 4th class condition, meaning..."wish it was (true) but it isn't" in your original post to me?

Where did you study Greek? I have been searching but cannot find anything to back up your claims. Most of what I find contradicts your claims about 4th class conditionals. For one, there are no complete 4th class conditionals in the NT and the way you define it is incorrect according to everything that I've read. Can you provide references as to where you got this from?

This verse needs to be taken in context. Paul is not referring to his present experience in this passage. He is using a common rhetorical practice known as "speech in character". If he is referring to himself, then he has completely contradicted what he says in chapters 6 and 8. Look at verse 14: Again the bible must be interpreted in the time in which it was written. I am not saying Paul had sinned here, he reflects what happens in his soul when he is out of fellowship, and how terrible the flesh is, and how the flesh has such a terrible hold. He knows it is a constant treat, and it is an extreme burden, the heaviness of it.

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."

Paul has just been making the case that we are free from sin and chapter 8 says we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. yes at the point of Salvation. God removed all past sins up to that point one believe. Now if you are refering to the NEW believer not sinning, that is absolutely wrong. Since he/she knows nothing of Gods mandates at that point, they will continue to take on sin until they learn doctrine.

The point is that in this passage, Paul is referring to a pre-Christian experience. I'm not saying this passage says new believers won't sin. I'm saying that if somebody is in the flesh and currently sold under sin, they are not a Christian. Romans 8:9 says that if we have the Spirit of God (we are Christians) then we are not in the flesh. Romans 7 refers to being "inf the flesh" and cannot be referring to Christian experience.

This brings it back to experience though. How do you know the son CAN'T obey? Maybe he just WON'T obey. How far can we take it? Can the husband who commits adultery choose not to sin? Maybe he couldn't help it. Should his wife be angry or understanding? If he couldn't help it, why should we blame him? No experience is that paradox in life that we store (memories) in our frontal lobe and builds a frame of reference to apply or not apply in life. The cookie jar is an overt action. There are hundreds of sins.....that are listed in three categories...1. mental attitude sins....2...sins of the tounge....3....overt sins. Sins come from actual THINKING...then left unchecked can manifest itself into the other catagories. Experience is what happens in life whether we are in fellowship or not, again that paradox. Sins are what we think and do.

I can't really respond to this because it doesn't even directly respond to my comments.

What do you mean by 'all sins are private'? We have the privacy of the priesthood as believers, this is a patr of our invisible assets gien to us by God (along with so much more) and when we sin our sins are the Lords and my business, not for public display. That's privacy. That's why when we site our sins to the God the Father, they are between Him and I.

While I don't believe you have to publicly share everything you do, other Christian believers are to play an important part in dealing with sin in each others lives.

"Fow what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whome you are to judge?"
- 1 Corinthians 5:12

"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."
- James 5:16

"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."
- Galatians 6:1

The culture of the Bible knew little of the privacy we so cherish today. In their minds, it was their business to keep watch on their neighbors. What you are saying is not Biblical. It is only cultural.

There is nothing that says either way. This is an individual CHOICE of every believer and my choice is to believe that it is impossilbe to stop as long as we live in this flesh, and this is for God to know anyway, for again privacy of the Priesthood. So I think we have said it all, and the only sins we should be concerned with anyway is our own, and let God worry about the rest. Faithrest in the Lord, for He knows all things.

The combination of (1) we can't stop sinning, and (2) my sin is nobody else's business, is an incredibly dangerous combination. I disagree with both strongly and will leave it at that. It leads to attitudes of "I can't help but sin, and nobody has any right to tell me not to." But I agree, I have said as much as I can and will leave it here. God bless.

- Owl

By the way, when you post in the future, I recommend just quoting people normally. The way you have done it has made it very difficult for me to quote you in my response.