How women view attractiveness

[Paidiske]

I can honestly say I've never worked anywhere where appearance didn't matter. I would find that exceptionally unusual in Australia.

And yeah, it does apply in ministry too, but it's subtly different for ministry. In most other fields, looking attractive is of some benefit. In ministry, you're almost encouraged to downplay your attractiveness. I've heard some female colleagues complain about the pressure to be "androgynous" in how they present themselves. This is, I think, related to the fact that women in ministry are still not accepted by everyone, and so the less you stand out as visibly female the less that pushes people's buttons. It's a bit weird.

 

[nChrist]

It should be obvious that what you wear, personal hygiene, and grooming makes a difference in just about everything in your life, including your own personal esteem. It effects the job you will be able to get and keep. It effects the mate you will get and be able to keep. It effects your interactions with others and their opinions about you. Generally, it's always worth it to spend extra minutes to look nice, male or female. If you don't care, you'll probably end up in an "I don't care" position that you will just have to live with. Or, you might end up with an "I don't care" employer and mate.

 

[Paidiske]

The question is, who sets the standards on what looks "nice," and what values are they based on?

Who decided that shaved legs were nicer than unshaved? When and why? Who decided that dreadlocks were less nice than a braided chignon? When and why? And so on.

I'm not arguing against personal grooming, but I would want to call into question arbitrary standards, especially when meeting them can be costly and difficult, and not meeting them can be really detrimental.

 

[nChrist]

The question is, who sets the standards on what looks "nice," and what values are they based on?

Who decided that shaved legs were nicer than unshaved? When and why? Who decided that dreadlocks were less nice than a braided chignon? When and why? And so on.

I'm not arguing against personal grooming, but I would want to call into question arbitrary standards, especially when meeting them can be costly and difficult, and not meeting them can be really detrimental.

I think it may boil down to common sense in sizing up the potential employer or mate. Many employers publish standards for what they expect, and that makes things easier. You just don't apply for a job that you don't like the standards. Dating and shopping for a potential mate is more complicated, so dating is used to determine whether or not you can stand each other. Each individual determines their own standards and the two may disagree. Each opinion may boil down to a preference, so the two determine if they can live with their differences. Who decides - the employer in one case and the individuals in the dating scenario. Regardless, everyone is free to go on their own way.

 

[cacemf]

I think when I was in my 20's and early 30's I cared more about my appearance to impress others but as I've gotten older that has shifted into me wanting to look nice for myself and for my husband. My husband doesn't care if I dress nice or put on makeup or shave my legs, but I want to because it makes me feel better about myself. The pressure from society doesn't get to me as much today as it used to.

 

[Dave-W]

Either way you look at it, there's just more work and expense there for women to reach the benchmark of "professionally groomed."

Sadly true.

 

[tall73]

I've heard some female colleagues complain about the pressure to be "androgynous" in how they present themselves. This is, I think, related to the fact that women in ministry are still not accepted by everyone, and so the less you stand out as visibly female the less that pushes people's buttons. It's a bit weird.

Now that is interesting. I would have to ask some of the female ministers, but I don't think that is as much of a dynamic here.

 

[tall73]

To be honest - I've always wondered what percent of the pressure to "feel attractive" when it comes to women actually comes from guys vs. what percent is just social pressure from other women.

What I mean by that is - most guys I know are pretty easy to please. If a woman has 50 pairs of shoes - I firmly believe it's for other women. No guy even notices your shoes unless you're wearing tennis shoes with an evening dress. Same with pretty much everything else. I think most guys just do a quick visual assessment of "does it look like what she's wearing overall fits the occasion" - and if it does on a broad level - we're cool with it. I do not know a guy that looks at it in minutia.

I don't think men notice if you're wearing hose. I don't think men notice if you haven't shaved your legs in a day or two. Men don't know the tell-tale signs of whether you've shaved your legs today or three days ago. We only notice if you're wearing a skirt and your legs start to look like ours.

I can't speak to why they are concerned about it, but I agree that I am unlikely to scrutinize someone's shoes, etc.

However, I worked with a boss once who wore only black suits, very formal all the time. Even on the two occasions I saw him dress casually due to circumstances (messy work), he would wear what looked to be a new pair of jeans with creases still in them. His wife verified she irons his jeans. His kids eventually bought him a grey suit, just to try and help him branch out, but he couldn't bring himself to wear it very often. He indicated that if someone has a nice suit but rough looking shoes he judges them based on it.

So such bosses do still exist, but they are getting more rare as time goes on. I think I saw a study somewhere that most guys don't even own a suit anymore. Even funerals are slowly becoming less formal as a result.

 

[tall73]

In movies - beauty always gets beauty. Women focus on what that says to them - and their worry that they're not objectively beautiful. But - most guys aren't objectively handsome either.

It is not exactly the original topic, but it is related.


Your Looks and Your Inbox – The OkCupid Blog

OK Cupid did a study of which people get the most attention on their dating site, trying to see how folks could adjust their profile to be effective.

They found that the photo was definitely where folks would focus.

A couple of key quotes:

Our chart shows how men have rated women, on a scale from 0 to 5. The curve is symmetric and surprisingly charitable: a woman is as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, and the majority of women have been rated about “medium.”

As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium.


EDIT: I started a new thread on the topic, but put back the post since folks already responded to it.

 

[DZoolander]

hahaha - that's awesome.

I tend to agree - at least with how I see women. It's like a bell curve. There are very few really repugnant looking ones, there are very few really breathtaking ones. The majority are pretty evenly disbursed across the spectrum - with the most logically being around "medium".

Of course then again - it could be there are just lots of ugly guys on OKCupid...hahaha

 

[Dave-W]

Of course then again - it could be there are just lots of ugly guys on OKCupid...hahaha

Indeed. LOL!!!!

 

[tall73]

hahaha - that's awesome.

I tend to agree - at least with how I see women. It's like a bell curve. There are very few really repugnant looking ones, there are very few really breathtaking ones. The majority are pretty evenly disbursed across the spectrum - with the most logically being around "medium".

I posted a new thread, but I agree. And I think, just from observation, most guys could be attracted to a wide variety of women. .

Now the same article notes they also like to shoot for the stars and try to message the most attractive disproportionately as well. So they may tend to go for it just in case, but most are not unhappy with the vast majority of women.

 

[Paidiske]

Now that is interesting. I would have to ask some of the female ministers, but I don't think that is as much of a dynamic here.

You could start a thread in the ministry forum here. There are a few of us around on CF.

I think I saw a study somewhere that most guys don't even own a suit anymore. Even funerals are slowly becoming less formal as a result.

When I got ordained, I went out to buy a black suit - formal skirt and jacket - which I wanted, in part, for funerals. I had enormous difficulty finding one; one sales assistant told me that today even most professional women wear separates or businesslike dresses or what have you, and that formal suits were something they didn't stock much any more.

Of course then again - it could be there are just lots of ugly guys on OKCupid...hahaha

It would be interesting to see what the results would be if women rated the women on OKCupid. My guess is they'd find 80% of the women as worse than medium too. Women have been socialised into being very critical of appearance.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Thank God I've always worked in a field where most of the time I could wear jeans, t-shirt and tennis shoes. I'd dress up for meetings and that was torture! Now, I wear mostly maxi-skirts, henley style tops and either sandals or black Sketcher tennis shoes. I don't wear makeup because I'm allergic to most of it and the aftermath is not worth it (think chemical burns all over my face). I do spend time making my hair look nice and spend a small fortune on mani/pedi every two weeks and wax when necessary. The upside of the maxi skirts is that I don't have to shave my legs nearly as often. When I work from home, well, it's yoga pants, tank top and slippers. My summer "do" is comb/curl my bangs and the rest is in a topknot.

Since my accident, I usually feel like death warmed over in the mornings, quite often with a headache that makes me want to amputate my head at the neck...so, in many ways, I'm doing good if I get out of bed and have something resembling clothes on...added bonus for shoes on the right feet.

I used to dress to the nines to go out...now, I don't go out much. Can't wear heels anymore (darn it). If anyone wants to look cross-eyed at me, let them. They're not living in a body that doesn't work quite right anymore or understands the effort it can take just to look halfway presentable.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Thank God I've always worked in a field where most of the time I could wear jeans, t-shirt and tennis shoes. I'd dress up for meetings and that was torture! Now, I wear mostly maxi-skirts, henley style tops and either sandals or black Sketcher tennis shoes. I don't wear makeup because I'm allergic to most of it and the aftermath is not worth it (think chemical burns all over my face). I do spend time making my hair look nice and spend a small fortune on mani/pedi every two weeks and wax when necessary. The upside of the maxi skirts is that I don't have to shave my legs nearly as often. When I work from home, well, it's yoga pants, tank top and slippers. My summer "do" is comb/curl my bangs and the rest is in a topknot.

Since my accident, I usually feel like death warmed over in the mornings, quite often with a headache that makes me want to amputate my head at the neck...so, in many ways, I'm doing good if I get out of bed and have something resembling clothes on...added bonus for shoes on the right feet.

I used to dress to the nines to go out...now, I don't go out much. Can't wear heels anymore (darn it). If anyone wants to look cross-eyed at me, let them. They're not living in a body that doesn't work quite right anymore or understands the effort it can take just to look halfway presentable.

I. Heard. THAT.

I can no longer walk in heels either, and I've been battling a migraine today. My hair is very long, but some days I have difficulty brushing it, and it's getting tempting to have the chop I didn't want to have.

I was once in Vocational Rehabilitation to try to get back into work. The ladies doing the job assessments gave me low marks on hygiene. That concerned me, because I was afraid I might smell bad and didn't know it, so I asked them. No, it wasn't that. They started giving me makeup tips and telling me how to have my hair styled. Yes, that's right, if a man had been groomed and styled to the same degree I was, they wouldn't have had a problem with it. But of course I didn't get any farther in that job placement process. Because those ladies made it sound like I didn't take a shower.

 

[Paidiske]

That's appalling, LBF.

 

[tall73]

It would be interesting to see what the results would be if women rated the women on OKCupid. My guess is they'd find 80% of the women as worse than medium too. Women have been socialised into being very critical of appearance.

Are we sure it is socialization? This may be more about human nature than socialization.

Women might tend to use more verbal/social means to establish dominance, as opposed to men engaging in more physical expressions, though certainly men can be critical of clothing as well.

From a biblical perspective, the sinful nature expresses itself in selfish behavior to put others down to make themselves feel better. No training by society is needed.

Even young children tend to be selfish, put down others, and form rudimentary hierarchies, without seeming to need instruction on the subject.

If society is to blame it removes personal accountability. If sinful nature is to blame the solution is not a better society, (which the sinful nature cannot bring about) but life in the Spirit.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't see socialisation as separate from human nature, but as one expression of it. We express our nature in social contexts, and are shaped by those contexts in how we express our nature... it's all related.

Social structures and systems can be sinful, and so redemption might be about liberation from those sinful structures. We all are accountable for our behaviour within those structures and systems, but we might, at times, be less morally culpable (not quite the same thing).

 

[RedPonyDriver]

They started giving me makeup tips and telling me how to have my hair styled. Yes, that's right, if a man had been groomed and styled to the same degree I was, they wouldn't have had a problem with it. But of course I didn't get any farther in that job placement process. Because those ladies made it sound like I didn't take a shower.

I would have invited them to kiss certain parts of my anatomy in front of the Bellagio fountain at high noon.
My hair has had the same basic "style" since about 1978 or so. Length between mid-back and hips, sometimes bangs, sometimes I let them grow out. No real makeup, maybe a little lip shine occasionally (the chemical burns all over my face are SO not worth it). No heels since I broke my ankle about 10 years ago. Since my accident...I wear whatever feels comfortable.

The headaches are from the jacked up nerves in my neck and at the base of my skull. The doctors have now decided that this will be a life-long disability and I can't tell you how angry I am about it.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm so sorry, RPD. I do hope the pain improves over time.