How women view attractiveness

[NothingIsImpossible]

My wife doesn't like my beard. I usually let it grow for 2-4 weeks before I cut/shave it off. And since I don't bother with beard oil (or whatever), its rough and dry. But shes gotten used to my pattern of letting it go for weeks and and still give me a kiss. Though not usually on the cheeks. Which is fine.

What about those who do so when dating then stop when married? Is that the old bait and switch?

I think thats to some degree normal. We tend to put the "best us" out there when looking for someone. And after the honeymoon phase the romance maybe slows down. Not that people don't love each other. But its more of your married and accepting who that person is and that all the effort put into yourself when finding someone isn't needed as much.

Romance is still required of course. But the core of the person, as long as they were honest when dating, should keep someone in love with you still. Though as with most marriages, as time goes on you may have to rekindle the flame since a couple gets so used to the other person that they kind of forget about what drew them to that person in the first place.

Of course there are those who lie alot when dating and once married the spouse seens a totally different person. In that case its gone from a small bait and switch to a full on jekyll and hyde. Which is dangerous.

Some even think that makeup itself is deceptive as it is in many cases a way to mimic signs of fertility beyond what one is naturally showing (more red in the lips, cheeks etc. which mimics physical signs of arousal in young and fertile females biologically. )

I quoted this because it sort of was going to be something I was going to talk about above. Makeup is a thing that frustrates me as a guy. Most women know their husbands love them as they have seen their wife without makeup, naked and probably in many other ways. We know our spouses very well and they know we love them regardless.

And yet most women still put alot of effort into looking beautiful for the rest of the world still. While obviously its not about trying to find another mate (since your married), I find alot of it has to do with women are afraid of what other women will think of them and maybe they may think the same of another woman.

I remember a picture I seen of a couple walking past another couple. The caption above the guys head was something like "Shes cute!" as he looked at the woman. His wifes caption (as she looked at the woman) was her thinking about what she likes/dislikes about the womans clothes, makeup, body features...etc. Like "Wow she has better lips then I do. And look at those nice shoes. Although her hair looks kind of messy!".

So in short I think its sort of a competition for women. Not that they do it on purpose of course. Its just how society has made them feel. Like they must look the best they can or else face criticism. And since being married to a woman from another country, I notice women from her culture are VERY quick to be competitive. They will talk behind each others back about "Did you see so and so doesn't have a Coach purse!". Or "Wow, why is she have cheap Walmart shirts?".

Now that I sort of went on and on, bake to the makeup. I really wish my wife wouldn't wear makeup. However with that said I am also fine with it because I realize why she wears it. To cover flaws. She does look diffrent without it on. And I can see why she (or most women) would feel they would be judged without their makeup.

Its one of those things that "It is what it is."

Me though? I drive people nuts because I do not care about fashion or what "trending" or anything. I have been wearing the same old Target/Walmart "beach" looking casual shirts forever now. Same pants. Same shoes. I don't care if my hair is styled or not. I don't care if I wear socks with sandels.

Sure, to some its tacky. But to me I realize none of that matters in the end. Its nothing to spend any time on worrying about. There are bigger issues in life then worrying about socks and sandals. Though to be fair I am not saying we should not care about every aspect of what we look like. We should shower and have proper hygiene of course. Things that are obviously important.

 

[HannahT]

Another thread was discussing shaved legs, etc. And one of the posters referenced that women feel pressured to present themselves various ways.

This isn't just limited to ladies, but wondering how folks feel about such things as jewelry, makeup, shaving, high heels, hose, etc. Should anyone feel the need to make themselves attractive on a regular basis?

What about those who do so when dating then stop when married? Is that the old bait and switch?

I never really wore makeup, except for special occasions. I didn't do it when I was dating either.

When I worked in the corporate world, or had business appointments? Yes, there were times in which I felt I needed to dress the part.

I personally think it is sad that women feel pressured to wear makeup just to find someone to marry. I mean really? It's not the face they need to worry about, but the more important things like character, etc. So they dress the part that is expected of them during dating I guess.

I was always take me as I am, and if you can't handle it? Move on! lol!

I tease the H at times when the beard comes into the picture - call him cactus face - because that is what it feels like. Yet, he grows it every fall, and shaves it every spring. No biggie! lol I have noticed he keeps it shorter than he used to. To me he is just him with or without it.

The shaving thread did make me giggle. If that is the biggest issue in your marriage FEEL lucky, and move on! It's SO not worth it!

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I don't wear makeup...ever. I'm allergic to most of the ingredients and having my face looking like it was burned is really not attractive (and yes, in reality my face was burned, chemical burns due to sensitivity). I've managed to have quite a professional career without ever wearing makeup. I used to be more into the whole business suit, hose and nice flats (can't wear heels), now? Nope. Maxi skirts, yoga pants, leggings, baggy shirts, tennis shoes or flip flops. I DO get a mani/pedi every two weeks like clockwork though. The only jewelry I wear now are my wedding rings, but back in my younger days, I loved wearing wild earrings...hoops big enough to be bracelets or 8 different earrings in the 8 holes in my ears (4 in each ear), long, beaded earrings that would show through my hair (waist to hip length most of my life, now mid-back length). I also stopped dying my hair not long ago...I'm going grey like my dad did, decided to stop trying to fight it.

So...for the men who think that women need to wear make up to be "feminine" or shave their legs or whatever...that's a social construct and not anything remotely related to "biblical womanhood".

 

[OK Jeff]

I stay clean shaven, goatee trimmed, shower regularly, I don’t dress up but try to look presentable every day. I farm and live near 20 miles from town. It’s not uncommon for me to go a week and never see a human being who doesn’t live in my house. I do so because it makes me feel good, but also because my wife finds it attractive.
By the same token, she fixes up every day. She fixes her hair, wears makeup, all that even though I’ve told her it’s not necessary for my benefit. She says she feels better when she’s put together (her term). We’re as close to real recluses as it gets. We both do so for ourselves and each other only. No societal pressure.

 

[cacemf]

Another thread was discussing shaved legs, etc. And one of the posters referenced that women feel pressured to present themselves various ways.

This isn't just limited to ladies, but wondering how folks feel about such things as jewelry, makeup, shaving, high heels, hose, etc. Should anyone feel the need to make themselves attractive on a regular basis?

What about those who do so when dating then stop when married? Is that the old bait and switch?

Some even think that makeup itself is deceptive as it is in many cases a way to mimic signs of fertility beyond what one is naturally showing (more red in the lips, cheeks etc. which mimics physical signs of arousal in young and fertile females biologically. )

Some think that jewelry is flaunting wealth, or drawing attention. Others just see it as a way to customize things the way they like (and costume jewelry may be a very low cost investment).

Just trying to get different takes on the subject, and understand things from a different perspective.

What do you mean by regular basis (every day, mostly every day, many times a week?) I don't see a need to dress up and make myself up every day, but I do like to look nice mostly every day, and I like to look nice for my husband. I only wear heals and hose occasionally but I wear minimal makeup and jewelry and shave regularly. I think all of it depends on the motive behind it...if one is doing it to draw attention then it can become problematic I guess.

 

[DZoolander]

To be honest - I've always wondered what percent of the pressure to "feel attractive" when it comes to women actually comes from guys vs. what percent is just social pressure from other women.

What I mean by that is - most guys I know are pretty easy to please. If a woman has 50 pairs of shoes - I firmly believe it's for other women. No guy even notices your shoes unless you're wearing tennis shoes with an evening dress. Same with pretty much everything else. I think most guys just do a quick visual assessment of "does it look like what she's wearing overall fits the occasion" - and if it does on a broad level - we're cool with it. I do not know a guy that looks at it in minutia.

I don't think men notice if you're wearing hose. I don't think men notice if you haven't shaved your legs in a day or two. Men don't know the tell-tale signs of whether you've shaved your legs today or three days ago. We only notice if you're wearing a skirt and your legs start to look like ours.

I think that's broadly true of MOST things...and as a result...I've always kinda believed that women obsess on these things because of other women...and for some reason we get the "blame" for it. lol

 

[Tropical Wilds]

What I mean by that is - most guys I know are pretty easy to please. If a woman has 50 pairs of shoes - I firmly believe it's for other women. No guy even notices your shoes unless you're wearing tennis shoes with an evening dress.

To be fair, I have 50 pairs of shoes but it’s for me. If I’m wearing an Alice in Wonderland dress, I can’t wear Ariel Vans. If I’m wearing my Boba Fett dress, I can’t wear my Jedi Toms. And the husband totally checks out my shoes, because he knows what’s good for him.

 

[cacemf]

To be honest - I've always wondered what percent of the pressure to "feel attractive" when it comes to women actually comes from guys vs. what percent is just social pressure from other women.

What I mean by that is - most guys I know are pretty easy to please. If a woman has 50 pairs of shoes - I firmly believe it's for other women. No guy even notices your shoes unless you're wearing tennis shoes with an evening dress. Same with pretty much everything else. I think most guys just do a quick visual assessment of "does it look like what she's wearing overall fits the occasion" - and if it does on a broad level - we're cool with it. I do not know a guy that looks at it in minutia.

I don't think men notice if you're wearing hose. I don't think men notice if you haven't shaved your legs in a day or two. Men don't know the tell-tale signs of whether you've shaved your legs today or three days ago. We only notice if you're wearing a skirt and your legs start to look like ours.

I think that's broadly true of MOST things...and as a result...I've always kinda believed that women obsess on these things because of other women...and for some reason we get the "blame" for it. lol

.

For me, I just like to look nice. I don't feel pressure by my husband, other woman or anyone else to look nice...it just makes me feel better. Most woman I think like to look nice because in general, it just makes us feel better. I'm sure there are some who dress to impress, but I think more in general most woman like to feel good, and so they do the things that make them feel good and that includes looking nice by shaving, wearing hose, wearing makeup, etc...

 

[Paidiske]

At this phase of my life - mid-thirties, married, a mum, working full time - I enjoy things like jewellery and make up, but I don't want to bother every morning. Most mornings we're struggling to get up on time, get everyone through the morning routine, get the small person to school on time, get the working day started... I do not have the extra time in that for going beyond the basics!

And in my marriage, that seems to be honestly fine. The other half enjoys when I have the time, and make the most of it, to get dressed up; but he doesn't seem to expect it as part of what he "needs" in a wife.

Where I feel the pressure is professionally. I know that people judge me on what I wear, what I do with my hair, whether I'm made up, what jewellery I wear, whether I do my nails, and so on and so on. I know because they tell me! And each day I need to make a judgement call; where am I going today, who am I going to see, at what level do I need to pitch my appearance for it not to be detrimental to what I'm trying to achieve?

And I find that problematic. Why is a "professional" look (especially for women) one which is costly in both money and time? What values and social norms are being perpetuated by that set of expectations? Add in that some beauty practices - like high heels - have a health cost associated with them, and seem to have developed for reasons to do with sexual appeal, and what are we saying about the role and status of women in the world and in the workplace by conforming? But are we prepared to bear the brunt of negative judgement - and all that goes with that - in not conforming? And so on. It's all very loaded.

We shouldn't have to worry about whether we'll be rewarded or punished for how we look in the workplace (beyond the basics of being clean, safe and so on) but we do.

I think it's not just related to gender, it's also related to class structure (I note that the two most tightly-policed professions I can think of, in terms of appearance, are both "service" professions; flight stewards and funeral directors). But that's difficult to tease out in a culture that doesn't like to talk about class.

 

[cacemf]

Where I feel the pressure is professionally. I know that people judge me on what I wear, what I do with my hair, whether I'm made up, what jewellery I wear, whether I do my nails, and so on and so on. I know because they tell me! And each day I need to make a judgement call; where am I going today, who am I going to see, at what level do I need to pitch my appearance for it not to be detrimental to what I'm trying to achieve?

And I find that problematic. Why is a "professional" look (especially for women) one which is costly in both money and time? What values and social norms are being perpetuated by that set of expectations? Add in that some beauty practices - like high heels - have a health cost associated with them, and seem to have developed for reasons to do with sexual appeal, and what are we saying about the role and status of women in the world and in the workplace by conforming? But are we prepared to bear the brunt of negative judgement - and all that goes with that - in not conforming? And so on. It's all very loaded.

We shouldn't have to worry about whether we'll be rewarded or punished for how we look in the workplace (beyond the basics of being clean, safe and so on) but we do.

I think it's not just related to gender, it's also related to class structure (I note that the two most tightly-policed professions I can think of, in terms of appearance, are both "service" professions; flight stewards and funeral directors). But that's difficult to tease out in a culture that doesn't like to talk about class.

Good point Paidiske, at this point in my life I am not working but there is definitely pressure in the professional world to look good.

 

[OK Jeff]

I have a good friend who grew up with me. We were a blue jeans and tee shirt kind of people. He started his professional life as a blue collar guy but wanted more. After years of school, he’s now doing the same type of work, but he’s white collar now. He’s socially very timid, very quiet. He has learned about higher end clothes (something he’d have never cared about before) and wears $600 suits. Not because he feels any direct pressure from anyone to do so. For him it’s very much about not being noticed. He’d rather no one notice anything about him except the work he does. So he dresses the part.

 

[Poppyseed78]

As a woman, I have noticed that people find it appropriate to comment on my appearance whenever they want to. This goes for both people I know as well as strangers. I find it in very poor taste, so I rarely comment on other people's appearance myself, and if I do it's always complimentary. I think bringing up anyone's weight is especially offensive.

In public, people treat me better when I make more of an effort with my appearance. If I style my hair and put on makeup, I am treated with more respect at places like the bank, for instance. But I wonder if I conflate this with my own confidence? Maybe I just act more confident when I feel like I "look better," and people thus treat me with more respect accordingly? Either way, appearance does affect how others treat us, either directly or due to their perception of our confidence. Girls are raised to believe they should try to be as beautiful as possible, and their self-esteem is affected if they feel they fall short of the societal beauty standard. And it's especially damaging if family members criticize a child for how she looks.

I'm a stay-at-home mom now, but when I was working I did notice that women in the workplace, especially an office setting, are expected to conform to a certain standard that is both expensive and time consuming. High heels, makeup, and well-styled hair were all expected. There is an element of pressure that men don't face. Men are expected to be well-groomed and wear clean clothes, but for the most part the daily routine is neither time-consuming nor expensive.

Nowadays I rarely use makeup and I wear whatever is comfortable and makes me feel good about myself. Occasionally I dress up, and my husband likes when I do, but I do that because I want to and not because I feel pressured.

 

[DZoolander]

I always find the "there is an element of pressure that men don't face" stuff interesting.

I'd argue that men face the same types of issues as women do, but they just don't complain about it as vocally as women do. They simply accept it as a part of life - and as their reality.

For example, I know this guy who weighs close to 400 lbs (yes, I'm using an extreme example...because I believe that truths are illustrated by extremes. The seeming ambiguities and uncertainties in life are simply middlegrounds of those extremes). Simply put - he looks like hell. Not only is he extremely obese, he has all the baggage that comes along with that. He can't find clothing that fits him, so he pretty much wears what amount to potato sacks. Objectively speaking, he looks slovenly.

Know how much attention he's garnered from women over the years? Zilch. Zero. By the time he was around 33-34 years old - he was tired of being a virgin and having never been on a date - so he decided to rectify that situation by going to a brothel in Vegas. He paid something like $600 there - and suffered from performance anxiety - and in her rush to try and get him done/out of there - she injured him...lol So for his $600 - he got a trip to the hospital (I'll just leave it at that).

He's now in his mid 40's. Know how much attention he's garnered from women since then? Zilch.

His self-confidence? I'd say zero. He won't even try to ask anyone out on a date/etc - because he knows it's a foregone conclusion that he'll get the "friend" speech - telling him what a wonderful guy he is and how any woman (apart from the one being asked, obviously) would be lucky to have him. He's heard it enough times - and he's tired of hearing it. So zero self confidence.

Career? I'd argue that his appearance has stymied his career as well.

People point at him - I've seen people blowing their faces up to look like they're fat behind his back in order to make fun - etc.

He doesn't complain, though, which I think is instilled into guys at a very young age. He knows his reality - he knows what the deal is - and that's just life from his point of view. Nobody is beating down his door for a date, for a promotion, etc...and it's 100% because of how he looks.

"But what about Disney? What about the subtexts that you have to have a tiny waist like the Disney Princesses to get a prince?" Well - true - but what about the guys that aren't princes? What type of men are rewarded in movies? Do you see the mediocre guy getting the girl? Do you see the ogreish guy saving the day?

"Yes, look at Beauty and the Beast!" - nah - he turns into a handsome prince at the end.
"Yes, look at Shreck!" - nah - she needs to turn into an ogre too for everyone to accept it.

In movies - beauty always gets beauty. Women focus on what that says to them - and their worry that they're not objectively beautiful. But - most guys aren't objectively handsome either. So, back to "beauty gets beauty" - what do the non beautiful guys get? lol

 

[DZoolander]

(and along the same vein since I'm thinking about it...lol)

I wonder who has it worse - women or men?

I mean, as a woman, most likely you'll still be able to find guys willing to do stuff with you. There's always some desperado running around. Of course you could argue "But he's just using you"... But really, I wonder which is worse? Being used but still having some sort of human contact/intimacy - or being in a situation where nobody will touch at all you unless you pay them? lol

 

[Poppyseed78]

I do think that extreme obesity can make it challenging to finding a spouse, but that is true for both men and women. Physical appearance does play a big role in dating, for better or for worse.

In college, many of my girl friends, who I would consider pretty and attractive, felt terrible about themselves and thought they were fat and ugly. It was very sad to me. I had some male friends who had some insecurities about their weight or appearance, but never to the same degree. They generally felt pretty good about themselves, whereas the girls - regardless of how they actually looked - often struggled with feelings of worthlessness. Unfortunately, how women feel about themselves is tied to their self-perception, and those perceptions are formed by what they are told by parents, family members, friends, and society.

 

[DZoolander]

I will agree that women tend to under-estimate themselves and men tend to over-estimate themselves...which is bizarre...especially when it comes to the women.

They run around worrying about this imperfection and/or that imperfection...and ya know...I've known plenty of guys. I've known plenty of superficial guys. Know how many of them date supermodels? Zero. Sure - if a supermodel just dropped in their lap they would take it - but they don't hold out for them. Nor do they hold the kinds of "imperfections" women seem to worry about against them/notice it.

Generally speaking - most guys that I know just don't want a woman to be obese (and I don't mean chubby or any of the other weird terms people throw around). It's true obesity that turns people off. They also want mates that present themselves well, and at least exert SOME effort to take care of themselves. That's about it. The fact that there may or may not be a little muffin top doesn't seem to worry any guys I know.

Dunno why women obsess on that and run themselves down so much - given that I don't think men are the extremely harsh critics they're made out to be.

 

[Paidiske]

I agree that extremes - like extreme obesity - hurt men as much as women.

But we were talking about the daily routine for "professional" men and women who are not at the extreme.

As far as I can see, it might compare like this:

Men:
- Clean clothes, polished shoes
- Shower, shave beard, brush teeth
- Comb hair.
- Nails are trimmed
- Deodorant and aftershave or cologne

Women:
- Clean clothes, polished shoes. (NB: These are both more expensive and less practical than the male version)
- Shower, tend to depilation of legs, underarms, any stray hairs where they "shouldn't" be
- Brush teeth
- Styling or doing hair (this typically involves significant time, and/or "product," and/or complexity/skill)
- Skin care and make up. A basic routine might involve cleanser, toner, moisturiser; concealer, foundation, eyeliner, eyeshadow, mascara, lipstick, blush and powder
- Accessories; jewellery (having the right bag, in itself, can make or break a "look.")
- Care of nails, which might be long and/or painted, needing significant maintenance
- Deodorant and perfume

On a weekly or less-often basis, women would also tend to need more hairdressers visits, perhaps a weekly more in-depth facial (mud mask etc), or perhaps regular waxing of legs or manicure etc depending how she chooses to manage those things.

Both sexes are expected to be healthy, so might need to fit in a gym routine.

Either way you look at it, there's just more work and expense there for women to reach the benchmark of "professionally groomed."

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I agree that extremes - like extreme obesity - hurt men as much as women.

But we were talking about the daily routine for "professional" men and women who are not at the extreme.

As far as I can see, it might compare like this:

Men:
- Clean clothes, polished shoes
- Shower, shave beard, brush teeth
- Comb hair.
- Nails are trimmed
- Deodorant and aftershave or cologne

Women:
- Clean clothes, polished shoes. (NB: These are both more expensive and less practical than the male version)
- Shower, tend to depilation of legs, underarms, any stray hairs where they "shouldn't" be
- Brush teeth
- Styling or doing hair (this typically involves significant time, and/or "product," and/or complexity/skill)
- Skin care and make up. A basic routine might involve cleanser, toner, moisturiser; concealer, foundation, eyeliner, eyeshadow, mascara, lipstick, blush and powder
- Accessories; jewellery (having the right bag, in itself, can make or break a "look.")
- Care of nails, which might be long and/or painted, needing significant maintenance
- Deodorant and perfume

On a weekly or less-often basis, women would also tend to need more hairdressers visits, perhaps a weekly more in-depth facial (mud mask etc), or perhaps regular waxing of legs or manicure etc depending how she chooses to manage those things.

Both sexes are expected to be healthy, so might need to fit in a gym routine.

Either way you look at it, there's just more work and expense there for women to reach the benchmark of "professionally groomed."

Some of this must vary by region... I worked highly professional jobs at an Ivy League college, a major medical center, and dispatch... My morning routine wasn’t near that complicated.

* Evening before I showered nightly but washed hair every other day (every third day in winter). Shave every other day, lotion nightly. Usually 15-20 minutes because it’s my relaxation time.

* Brush teeth, 3 minutes.

* Hair in ponytail or similar updo, 1 minute

* Skin and makeup, cold water wash, face cream, powder foundation, eye shadow, liner, mascara, lips, bronzer in winter, lotion for hands, deodorant, 15-20 min.

* Clean clothes, usually skirt and blouse or dress pants. Comfortable flats, 10 minutes.

Done. Nails I do once a week (file, clear topcoat that dries in 90 seconds), that’s about it.

I don’t find any of that to be really time consuming or complicated.

 

[Paidiske]

I suspect it varies a lot by industry, too. When I worked in a pharmacy, for example, the expectation was much higher than, say, when I worked doing data entry for a superannuation company.

Now I seldom bother with much make up unless I'm taking a funeral or some other rather formal occasion.

But even your routine involves stuff guys never have to think about.

 

[tall73]

I agree that extremes - like extreme obesity - hurt men as much as women.

But we were talking about the daily routine for "professional" men and women who are not at the extreme.

As far as I can see, it might compare like this:

Men:
- Clean clothes, polished shoes
- Shower, shave beard, brush teeth
- Comb hair.
- Nails are trimmed
- Deodorant and aftershave or cologne

Women:
- Clean clothes, polished shoes. (NB: These are both more expensive and less practical than the male version)
- Shower, tend to depilation of legs, underarms, any stray hairs where they "shouldn't" be
- Brush teeth
- Styling or doing hair (this typically involves significant time, and/or "product," and/or complexity/skill)
- Skin care and make up. A basic routine might involve cleanser, toner, moisturiser; concealer, foundation, eyeliner, eyeshadow, mascara, lipstick, blush and powder
- Accessories; jewellery (having the right bag, in itself, can make or break a "look.")
- Care of nails, which might be long and/or painted, needing significant maintenance
- Deodorant and perfume

On a weekly or less-often basis, women would also tend to need more hairdressers visits, perhaps a weekly more in-depth facial (mud mask etc), or perhaps regular waxing of legs or manicure etc depending how she chooses to manage those things.

Both sexes are expected to be healthy, so might need to fit in a gym routine.

Either way you look at it, there's just more work and expense there for women to reach the benchmark of "professionally groomed."

It may just depend on the field you are in. I worked at some businesses that you could look like a cave troll, but it wouldn't matter if you could perform well at your job. They hired and promoted purely on performance, regardless of whether you were male or female.

Other fields are magnets for criticism. If you are still working in ministry there is pretty much no such thing as a clergy member who is not criticized on nearly every aspect of life, including appearance.