How Universalism, ‘the Opiate of the Theologians,’ Went Mainstream

[Der Alte]

so you disagree with the statement that an adjective that is derived from a noun can 't have a greater force than the noun that it is derived from ? that is my question. I understand that you believe that Aion is eternal that is not the question . I know you have much more formal education than I do I don't question that all i want to know is that statement correct as far as you are concerned.

I believe "that an adjective that is derived from a noun can have a greater or lesser force than the noun that it is derived from" but I was not interested enough to look it up. "Aion" is a noun which means "eternity" but is sometimes translated "age." "Aionios" is an adjective which means eternal but is translated "world" only twice in the N.T. Referring to another of your posts. I would not look to "Philosophy" for the Biblical meaning of eternity/eternal. Reread my posts #103, 109. How did Jesus, Himself, define/describe "aionios?" Hint, Jesus said twice that "aionios zoe/eternal life" means "shall not perish." Men can change their beliefs all the time but the words of Jesus do not change.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I believe "that an adjective that is derived from a noun can have a greater or lesser force than the noun that it is derived from" but I was not interested enough to look it up. "Aion" is a noun which means "eternity" but is sometimes translated "age." "Aionios" is an adjective which means eternal but is translated "world" only twice in the N.T. Referring to another of your posts. I would not look to "Philosophy" for the Biblical meaning of eternity/eternal. Reread my posts #103, 109. How did Jesus, Himself, define/describe "aionios?" Hint, Jesus said twice that "aionios zoe/eternal life" means "shall not perish." Men can change their beliefs all the time but the words of Jesus do not change.

ok thank you , because I am not good with grammar type thing I spent several hours on the computer studying grammar and ever sight I looked up said that it was against the "laws of language grammar " to have an adjective that is noun derived to be more forceful than the noun it was derived from and they gave pages of examples to show that . I really don't want to rehash that you have your opinion and people who back you up I have my opinion and people who back it up. It has nothing to do with are you following God or not its more of the view of how we see the Father, what is his character, nature , his essence and we disagree on that . Fortunately we don't have to get God 100% , if that were true no one would be correct. I truly belive no one can know God 100% thats why Paul said we see as through a glass dimly.

 

[Der Alte]

ok thank you , because I am not good with grammar type thing I spent several hours on the computer studying grammar and ever sight I looked up said that it was against the "laws of language grammar " to have an adjective that is noun derived to be more forceful than the noun it was derived from and they gave pages of examples to show that . I really don't want to rehash that you have your opinion and people who back you up I have my opinion and people who back it up. It has nothing to do with are you following God or not its more of the view of how we see the Father, what is his character, nature , his essence and we disagree on that . Fortunately we don't have to get God 100% , if that were true no one would be correct. I truly belive no one can know God 100% thats why Paul said we see as through a glass dimly.

It is not enough to be able to quote somebody, somewhere that supports a particular point but what is the quality of that source. Here is the definition of "aionios" from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, which represents 120-160 years of combined Greek scholarship. The blue highlights indicate the 80+ historical sources the scholars consulted to determine the correct definition. Despite accusations to the contrary, real scholars don't sit around making up definitions. All an opponent would have to do to "make their bones" is review some of the listed sources and show that the real scholars misrepresented their sources. That has never been done.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).
② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).
③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατοςB 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.​

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[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.

 

[drewcosten]

Evidently you have been reading the wrong stuff on the internet. You can copy/paste stuff off the internet until your keyboard wears out but the only way anyone could ever convince me that the Bible actually does teach universal reconciliation would be if they were able to refute all of the arguments and scriptural interpretations I have posted see e.g. my posts #103 and 109 directly above. Good luck.

I covered the verses you mentioned in that article I wrote that I linked to above. I don’t see any questions in those posts, though, so I’m not sure what you’re asking. I should say, I don’t worry about what the original Hebrew or Greek say, because every single English Bible translation out there still teach the salvation of all, and so one doesn’t have to dive into the original languages in order to learn this.

 

[Der Alte]

I covered the verses you mentioned in that article I wrote that I linked to above. I don’t see any questions in those posts, though, so I’m not sure what you’re asking. I should say, I don’t worry about what the original Hebrew or Greek say, because every single English Bible translation out there still teach the salvation of all, and so one doesn’t have to dive into the original languages in order to learn this.

No every English Bible translation does NOT teach salvation of all.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

= = =​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement Day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28​

 

[drewcosten]

No every English Bible translation does NOT teach salvation of all.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

= = =​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement Day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28​

And when one learns how to interpret those passages correctly, they discover that they don’t contradict the doctrine of the salvation of all at all, as I proved in that article. That’s all I’m going to say for now, though, since I already did all the heavy lifting in the article.

 

[Der Alte]

And when one learns how to interpret those passages correctly, they discover that they don’t contradict the doctrine of the salvation of all at all, as I proved in that article. That’s all I’m going to say for now, though, since I already did all the heavy lifting in the article.

Cop out! Yes, please do tell me how to "correctly" interpret the vss. I quoted. I can read them in more than one language. Can you? I doubt that you know a hithpael from a hatpin or an aorist from an apple.

 

[actionsub]

I don't know why Bell became such a big deal. Maybe it's because of whatever status/reputation he had beforehand. But in the world of Christian universalism, which I've become pretty familiar with, I virtually never hear his name brought up among the group of pastors, priests and theologians who are known to universalists. I think perhaps he went off on his own tangent or something. So he might not be the best source.

Bell was a golden boy in the "emergent church" sector, by virtue of being the pastor of the OTHER "Mars Hill" church. He grew that congregation to a large size through his preaching. Around the mid 00s is when he started going off on his own tangent, with the flap over "Love Wins" in 2012 leading him to resign the church in hopes of going to LA in hopes of starting a "spiritual talk show".
The reason he's not mentioned among the universalist community is for one, he never really affirmed universalism, instead positing it as a "what if it were true?" The other reason is he's more of a pop author than a serious theologian, having left the pastorate at the height of the "Love Wins" controversy.

 

[Andrewn]

The reason he's not mentioned among the universalist community is for one, he never really affirmed universalism, instead positing it as a "what if it were true?" The other reason is he's more of a pop author than a serious theologian, having left the pastorate at the height of the "Love Wins" controversy.

I'm sure there are a lot more hopeful universalists than those who preach universalism as a fact.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'm sure there are a lot more hopeful universalists than those who preach universalism as a fact.

I could see putting myself in that category. I think it's possible. And the possibility has scriptural backing. But I certainly don't know for sure.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I could see putting myself in that category. I think it's possible. And the possibility has scriptural backing. But I certainly don't know for sure.

I wonder if that is how the Jews felt about Jesus not being the King who would overthrow the Romans, but was the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The idea that they were Gods chosen and they would run the world only to find out that Jesus’s kingdom was a spiritual kingdom for the whole world , must have been a hard pill to swallow.

 

[Andrewn]

I wonder if that is how the Jews felt about Jesus not being the King who would overthrow the Romans, but was the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The idea that they were Gods chosen and they would run the world only to find out that Jesus’s kingdom was a spiritual kingdom for the whole world , must have been a hard pill to swallow.

This is not a good comparison because deciding to follow Jesus was essential for the Jews while deciding about universal salvation is none of our business. Jesus said to Peter:

Joh 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!”

 

[Jeff Saunders]

This is not a good comparison because deciding to follow Jesus was essential for the Jews while deciding about universal salvation is none of our business. Jesus said to Peter:

Joh 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!”

How is it none of our business to try to follow Jesus as He really is , the savior of the world not a potential savior? Are we not supposed to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and search out what the scripture really say?

 

[Andrewn]

How is it none of our business to try to follow Jesus as He really is , the savior of the world not a potential savior? Are we not supposed to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and search out what the scripture really say?

It is sufficient to trust in God's love and mercy. I do see, however, where you're coming from.

A picture of God who is wrathful and subjects people to unending torments for having incorrect beliefs is not exactly compatible with a healthy faith. This picture did lead some Christians in past centuries to atrocious behavior against perceived heretics. Ultimately, we aspire to become like the God we believe in.

I think God blessed me at a very young age by believing that He wills that all people be saved (1Ti 2:4) and that He is able to accomplish his will. This was a long time before hearing about universalism.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It is sufficient to trust in God's love and mercy. I do see, however, where you're coming from.

A picture of God who is wrathful and subjects people to unending torments for having incorrect beliefs is not exactly compatible with a healthy faith. This picture did lead some Christians in past centuries to atrocious behavior against perceived heretics. Ultimately, we aspire to become like the God we believe in.

I think God blessed me at a very young age by believing that He wills that all people be saved (1Ti 2:4) and that He is able to accomplish his will. This was a long time before hearing about universalism.

You are blessed It took 50+ years for me.

 

[Der Alte]

@Jeff Saunders It is sufficient to trust in God's love and mercy. I do see, however, where you're coming from.
A picture of God who is wrathful and subjects people to unending torments for having incorrect beliefs is not exactly compatible with a healthy faith. This picture did lead some Christians in past centuries to atrocious behavior against perceived heretics. Ultimately, we aspire to become like the God we believe in.
I think God blessed me at a very young age by believing that He wills that all people be saved (1Ti 2:4) and that He is able to accomplish his will. This was a long time before hearing about universalism.

The ONLY way to get there is to concentrate on out-of-context proof texts and ignore vss. which irrefutable show universal reconciliation to be unscriptural. See e.g.
Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[Andrewn]

The ONLY way to get there is to concentrate on out-of-context proof texts and ignore vss. which irrefutable show universal reconciliation to be unscriptural.

You expect a reply to the verses you quote even though you were unable to address posts #111 and #134 (above) or post #120 in the other thread:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-a-successful-good-creation-for-god.8268812/page-6

But in order to show that there is no contradiction in the Bible, here are my comments:

Jeremiah 13:11-14,

This passage is about the destruction of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar. Nothing there about eternal destiny.

Matthew 7:21-23,

Addressed in post #103 of the other thread.

I'll get back to the rest when I have time. Meanwhile, others may address these verses.

 

[Der Alte]

You expect a reply to the verses you quote even though you were unable to address posts #111 and #134 (above) or post #120 in the other thread:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-a-successful-good-creation-for-god.8268812/page-6
But in order to show that there is no contradiction in the Bible, here are my comments:
This passage is about the destruction of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar. Nothing there about eternal destiny.
Addressed in post #103 of the other thread.
I'll get back to the rest when I have time. Meanwhile, others may address these verses.

Evasive smokescreen I find no mention of Nebuchadnezzar in Jer 13. You need to find another reason Nothing you have said negates the words that God, Himself, spoke against the whole house of Judah and the whole house Israel which I quote again..

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

 

[Andrewn]

Evasive smokescreen I find no mention of Nebuchadnezzar in Jer 13. You need to find another reason Nothing you have said negates the words that God, Himself, spoke against the whole house of Judah and the whole house Israel which I quote again..
Jeremiah 13:11-14

If you can't even see that the passage is about physical destruction, I will not waste my time explaining the other verses.

 

[Der Alte]

If you can't even see that the passage is about physical destruction, I will not waste my time explaining the other verses.

I call this a cop-out. Thank you for this unsupported opinion. There is nothing, that I know of, in the entire passage, which limits God punishment of disobedient Israel and Judah to this world. When God says "I will not have pity, or mercy but destroy them" I believe He means what He says and says what He means. Unless you can show me one vs, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, says He changed His mind and will have mercy and pity on those He destroyed. I studied both Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago so you would need to bring some very, very good scholarship to the table.
I think Revelation 22:11 pretty much destroys any post death salvation narrative.