How Universalism, ‘the Opiate of the Theologians,’ Went Mainstream

Jeff Saunders

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This discussion is a non-discussion about a totally deadly false gospel that is accursed by Jesus and by the Father. Anathema. Forever.
Would you please tell me what you find false and why and I will tell you why I think it’s not , I will tell you what and why I believe UR to be a scriptural way to understand God , can you please do the same . Just yelling it’s false and not giving any reason why it’s false is not a discussion. My God is really big you can’t hurt him if you’re God is to fragile and weak to be under the microscope then maybe you need to get a new God.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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What Jesus call anathema, accursed, remains anathema, remains today accursed, and forever.
you still have not given me one example of why you think its anathema ! let me give you a word picture of how I see your view , then will you please use scriptue or examples of why I am wrong ,tear my thinking to pieces I have big shoulders I can handle it and I promise that I wont go running for the powers that be to censure you . It seems to me you see God as a fragile glass ball that you must protect with everything you can and I have come in with a hammer and am chipping away at the ball and its going to crumble and take out a bunch of people with it . I see God as a rock that is so stong nothing can harm it ,not even satan, you can throw anything you want and it will still be standing at the end of the day without a scratch . I worship and follow a really big God nothing can thwart is plan not even satan. ( satan is just a tool that God is using for his ultimate goal Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth and in heaven by Jesus.
 
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Der Alte

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as for john 3:15-16 and the Matt 25:46 you know what I believe its not eternal ( and please dont copy and paste the list I have seen it many times) as for Matt 7:21-23 I agree that is going to happen at the end of this age but its not the end of the story . as for Jeremiah I have no idea what that has to do with this discussion. same with Rom 1:24 and 26 . Romans 1:28 I would say you need to look into the mirror when you read that but I do not believe it has anything to do with this discussion.
Oh yes, please do confront me because I cited 7 or so vs. without stating what they actually say after you did the same. What you "believe" about any of the vss. I cited is not really relevant if you cannot conclusively show what I said is incorrect. My conclusion is, you did not because you can't. None of the vss. including Rom 1:24, 26, 28 were directed specifically at you, they are additional vss. which refute UR.
Let's try this again. Two vss. spoken by Jesus, Himself,
John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios]life.​
In these 2 vss. Jesus parallels "aionios zoe"/"eternal life." with "shall not perish, not once but twice. By definition "aionios" means "eternal"/"everlasting." No if, ands or buts. And to forestall any frivolous objections, "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.
 
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Der Alte

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you still have not given me one example of why you think its anathema ! let me give you a word picture of how I see your view , then will you please use scriptue or examples of why I am wrong ,tear my thinking to pieces I have big shoulders I can handle it and I promise that I wont go running for the powers that be to censure you . It seems to me you see God as a fragile glass ball that you must protect with everything you can and I have come in with a hammer and am chipping away at the ball and its going to crumble and take out a bunch of people with it . I see God as a rock that is so stong nothing can harm it ,not even satan, you can throw anything you want and it will still be standing at the end of the day without a scratch . I worship and follow a really big God nothing can thwart is plan not even satan. ( satan is just a tool that God is using for his ultimate goal Col 1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth and in heaven by Jesus.
The words of the Father, Himself, and Jesus, Himself, refute the UR conclusion that all mankind will be saved, even after death.
Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD:[YHWH] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
= = =

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​
Jesus, never said that all mankind will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said, "Many will say to me in that day, [Judgement Day] Lord, Lord, have we not in thy name done many wonderful works? then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by.
 
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Andrewn

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I tried to read your second link but stopped when I got to this, "Placed in this context, we can see that the word aionion in Matthew 25:46 means “age” in the sense of “the age to come”. Existence in that age to come will be qualitatively different than existence in this present age,""aionios" is an adjective, "age" is a noun.
It looks like you misunderstood. Of course, αἰῶνιος does not mean "age." Αἰῶνιος is an adjective, and "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. Rather "ζωὴν αἰώνιον" means "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." Αἰῶνιος means eternal / existing outside time / belonging to the age to come.

 
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Der Alte

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It looks like you misunderstood. Of course, αἰῶνος does not mean "age." Αἰῶνος is an adjective, and "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun. Rather "ζωὴν αἰώνιον" means "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." Αἰῶνος means "eternal" / "of the age to come."
But for a couple of things. There is no Greek grammar or lexicon that I am aware of which gives the definition of "aionios" as "of the age to come." I posted the complete definition of "aionios" from BDAG Greek lexicon at this link.
To be translated ""ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος."/zoen tou mellontos aionios" would require that the adjective "aionios" be in the "genitive" case. Only nouns take the genitive case.
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. and I am not aware of any vs. where it is translated "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος."
FYI I started learning to speak Greek in Germany the year that Elvis and I were stationed there and studied it formally at the graduate level about 2 decades later.
 
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Andrewn

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There is no Greek grammar or lexicon that I am aware of which gives the definition of "aionios" as "of the age to come." I posted the complete definition of "aionios" from BDAG Greek lexicon at this link.
One of the definitions in your source is "in the reign of God" and also "of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses":


"in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]"

To be translated ""ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος."/zoen tou mellontos aionios" would require that the adjective "aionios" be in the "genitive" case. Only nouns take the genitive case.
It is not translated "zoen tou mellontos aionios" but rather "zoen tou mellontos aionos." Aionos is a noun, not an adjective.

I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. and I am not aware of any vs. where it is translated "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος." FYI I started learning to speak Greek in Germany the year that Elvis and I were stationed there and studied it formally at the graduate level about 2 decades later.
I respect your knowledge. The expression "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος" is in the Nicene Creed.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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But for a couple of things. There is no Greek grammar or lexicon that I am aware of which gives the definition of "aionios" as "of the age to come." I posted the complete definition of "aionios" from BDAG Greek lexicon at this link.
To be translated ""ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος."/zoen tou mellontos aionios" would require that the adjective "aionios" be in the "genitive" case. Only nouns take the genitive case.
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. and I am not aware of any vs. where it is translated "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος."
FYI I started learning to speak Greek in Germany the year that Elvis and I were stationed there and studied it formally at the graduate level about 2 decades later.
I have a question for you is this statement true ? No adjective can have a greater force than the noun from which it is derived. I have spent some time on my computer and can find no case which that statement is not true. can you point me to the reference that you use that says otherwise.
 
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Der Alte

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One of the definitions in your source is "in the reign of God" and also "of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses":
"in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]"
It is not translated "zoen tou mellontos aionios" but rather "zoen tou mellontos aionos." Aionos is a noun, not an adjective.
I respect your knowledge. The expression "ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος" is in the Nicene Creed.
You are correct "aion" is a noun. As you said "zoen tou mellontos aionos." is in the creed, thus NOT scripture. "Aion" occurs 102 times in the N.T. and is translated "age" only 2 times.
Here are a few vss. which conclusively show that "aion" means "eternity." And while "aion" does refer to things that are not eternal, it is never described or defined as a period less than eternity, as in these verses.
John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal αἰώνιον life; and they shall never perish ,εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​
In this vs. "aion" is contrasted with "they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 6:58
(58) This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.]​
In this vs. "live to the aion" is contrasted with "death."
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, αἰώνων immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων· Amen.​
In this vs. "aion" is paralleled with "immortal."
Hebrews 7:21
(21) (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα after the order of Melchisedec:)
In this vs. "aion" is paralleled with "Lord sware and will not repent."
Hebrews 7:24
(24) But this man, because he continueth ever, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα hath an unchangeable priesthood.​
In this vs. "this man continues eis ton aion" is paralleled with "unchangeable priesthood."

.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I have a question for you is this statement true ? No adjective can have a greater force than the noun from which it is derived. I have spent some time on my computer and can find no case which that statement is not true. can you point me to the reference that you use that says otherwise.
i am still waiting
 
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Andrewn

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Here are a few vss. which conclusively show that "aion" means "eternity." And while "aion" does refer to things that are not eternal, it is never described or defined as a period less than eternity, as in these verses.
You and I agree that "anon" means "eternity" and "aionios" means "eternal." The question then is what is "eternity"?

"Western theists agree that God is eternal; the task is to formulate and assess conceptions of what this eternality might amount to. Broadly speaking, there have been two rival views of what God’s eternality consists in. On the first, God is timeless (divine timelessness); on the second, God is in time (divine temporality). Sometimes the term “eternity” is used to denote timelessness, but as mentioned, we will here use it as neutral between the timeless and temporal views. The term “everlasting” (or “sempiternal”) on the other hand, is mostly associated with the temporal view. On the temporal view, God is in time and thus exists at every time; there is no time at which God doesn’t exist."


So far, I've taken "eternal" to mean "existing outside time" (the 1st view), and you've taken it to mean "everlasting or unending" (the 2nd view).

Although "timeless eternity" used to be the norm in Christian theology, the idea has faded out to the extent that many modern English dictionaries define eternity as "infinite or unending time" or "a period of time that seems very long."

As the article quoted above indicates, "In recent times, there has been a notable shift away from divine timelessness." It then goes on to discuss arguments for and against timelessness.

Given these different views, it seems unlikely that we can agree on a definition of "eternal life." The Lord said:

Joh 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

I think we agree about this.
 
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drewcosten

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The only way to conclude that the Bible teaches never-ending punishment, at least that I can see, is to read it completely out of context. When context is taken into consideration, not to mention when the rest of Scripture as a whole is taken into consideration as well, it seems pretty clear to me that the Bible says everyone will experience salvation by the end of the ages. The only way anyone could ever convince me that the Bible actually does teach never-ending punishment would be if they were able to refute all of the arguments and scriptural interpretations in this article: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Still waiting!
I am sure you are getting this so why are you ignoring me? Have I finally found something that you can’t explain? Or if you do respond you are afraid that the whole house of cards will come crumbling down. I understand that an eternal hell is the bedrock of what you believe so if you have no explanation that’s ok
 
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drewcosten

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You’ll be waiting for a long time. I’ve submitted the article I linked to above to hundreds of Christians who believe in never-ending torment for review and refutation, and so far none of them have been willing to do so (although a number of other Christians have read it and told me it convinced them to become Universalists, so I have to believe the only reason it hasn’t been refuted yet is because it simply can’t be).
I am sure you are getting this so why are you ignoring me? Have I finally found something that you can’t explain? Or if you do respond you are afraid that the whole house of cards will come crumbling down. I understand that an eternal hell is the bedrock of what you believe so if you have no explanation that’s ok
 
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Jeff Saunders

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You’ll be waiting for a long time. I’ve submitted the article I linked to above to hundreds of Christians who believe in never-ending torment for review and refutation, and so far none of them have been willing to do so (although a number of other Christians have read it and told me it convinced them to become Universalists, so I have to believe the only reason it hasn’t been refuted yet is because it simply can’t be).
I think the whole God will torture people forever idea is a house of cards and when you see God as a loving Father and not a angry God who has to be appeased the whole house of cards falls apart. And for one to admit that takes humility and that is not easy.
 
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Der Alte

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The only way to conclude that the Bible teaches never-ending punishment, at least that I can see, is to read it completely out of context. When context is taken into consideration, not to mention when the rest of Scripture as a whole is taken into consideration as well, it seems pretty clear to me that the Bible says everyone will experience salvation by the end of the ages. The only way anyone could ever convince me that the Bible actually does teach never-ending punishment would be if they were able to refute all of the arguments and scriptural interpretations in this article: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation
Evidently you have been reading the wrong stuff on the internet. You can copy/paste stuff off the internet until your keyboard wears out but the only way anyone could ever convince me that the Bible actually does teach universal reconciliation would be if they were able to refute all of the arguments and scriptural interpretations I have posted see e.g. my posts #103 and 109 directly above. Good luck.
 
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Der Alte

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I have a question for you is this statement true ? No adjective can have a greater force than the noun from which it is derived. I have spent some time on my computer and can find no case which that statement is not true. can you point me to the reference that you use that says otherwise.
I don't spend 24 hours a day on here if you think there is something I missed link me to it and I will be more than glad to refute it. Point me to that rule in any credible, Greek grammar. While you are scouring the internet looking for potshots to throw at me look up the "etymological fallacy." You might be surprised. Don't confuse "usually" with "always."
If you are talking about "aion" you have to show me conclusively where the primary meaning is "age." To help you out here is a link to my post quoting the full definition of "aion" from the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon which represents about 120-160 years of combined scholarship. And don take note of the 80+ historical sources the scholars consulted to determine the correct definition. Unlike UR quasi-scholars the real deal don't sit around making up definitions.
 
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Der Alte

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I think the whole God will torture people forever idea is a house of cards and when you see God as a loving Father and not a angry God who has to be appeased the whole house of cards falls apart. And for one to admit that takes humility and that is not easy.
Then maybe you need to talk to the "Big Guy." And if you are so inclined, please do try to impress me with random quotes from UR-"experts," online.
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he [Jesus] will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]
…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT, 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I don't spend 24 hours a day on here if you think there is something I missed link me to it and I will be more than glad to refute it. Point me to that rule in any credible, Greek grammar. While you are scouring the internet looking for potshots to throw at me look up the "etymological fallacy." You might be surprised. Don't confuse "usually" with "always."
If you are talking about "aion" you have to show me conclusively where the primary meaning is "age." To help you out here is a link to my post quoting the full definition of "aion" from the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon which represents about 120-160 years of combined scholarship. And don take note of the 80+ historical sources the scholars consulted to determine the correct definition. Unlike UR quasi-scholars the real deal don't sit around making up definitions.
so you disagree with the statement that an adjective that is derived from a noun can 't have a greater force than the noun that it is derived from ? that is my question. I understand that you believe that Aion is eternal that is not the question . I know you have much more formal education than I do I don't question that all i want to know is that statement correct as far as you are concerned.
 
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