I do! That one paragraph is all there is to it. There is no credible, verifiable historical evidence listed which supports the claim. Nothing! Just the unsupported opinions of the authors.Saint Steven said:
And mine was only the gentlest encouragement towards the Fathers.And 3 isn't going anywhere either. That's not a challenge, though, Chevy. Just an admission.
One thing missing. The identification of the source. So, you found this somewhere online. Below is a link to a prior post of mine where I posted the complete definition of "aionios" from Bauer Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. One of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available. For the readers benefit I highlighted in blue the 80+ historical sources the scholars consulted in determining the correct meaning. Credible scholars don't sit around making up definitions for words, if they intend to remain scholars.
www.christianforums.com
The definition of "eternal" that I posted is from Mirriam-Webster's dictionary:
www.merriam-webster.com
One of the definitions in your source is "in the reign of God" and also "of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses":
look man if you are offended by idea I am sorry but I am just calling it as I see it, shoot I have been called a heretic and I am going to hell , and you dont see me crying about it. I am a big boy I can handle it , besides if your going to dish it out you have to be able to take it. Put your bigboy pants on and have a debate like grown adults . I understand that when tradition and your paradigm is challenged it can be uncomfortable.
I agree. Why are most Christians so intolerant of different ideas? "It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist."
www.jewfaq.org
I agree. Why are most Christians so intolerant of different ideas? "It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist."
Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)
Learn about Jewish beliefs regarding the afterlife, the World to Come, resurrection and reincarnation.
I tried to read your second link but stopped when I got to this,The definition of "eternal" that I posted is from Mirriam-Webster's dictionary:
Definition of ETERNAL
having infinite duration : everlasting; of or relating to eternity; characterized by abiding fellowship with God… See the full definition
One of the definitions in your source is "in the reign of God" and also "of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses":
"in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]"
The Greek "aionios" and English "eternal" are quite equivalent, but they need to be understood properly. Eternity is what is timeless or exists outside time. Here is a Greek Orthodox analysis:
What Does "Aionion" Mean? – No Other Foundation
In the debate about the theological validity of Christian universalism one sometimes finds discussion about the meaning of the word “eternal” in Matthew 25:46. Christ there says plainly that the unrighteous “will go away into eternal punishment”, and the word here rendered “eternal” is the Greek...blogs.ancientfaith.com
isn't that the same thing that the pharisees told Jesus and his disciples ? and the catholic church said of the reformers during what we call the reformation. I personally think its time for a new reformation one in which Jesus is King and Savior and He gets all that He paid for! Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord Phil 2:10-11
thats what your tradition teaches you , I follow the tradition of the early church fathers and they did not all think that the tradition that you hold to was the best way to understand God and the scriptures.
can you back up your claims with examples ? I am on several UR sights and I have not once seen where anyone has rejected Jesus because we believe he is a loving God and His will is that none parish but that all come to life, Just the opposite is what I have seen , there are many testimonies of people who walked away from God because they could not love a God who would create people He knew were going to reject him and he was going to torcher them forever, and he creates them anyway , but when they find out that God will eventually redeem his whole creation ( Acts 3:21) they come back to Jesus and they follow him as he asked us to do. What you are doing is adding to the gospel by saying its Jesus plus a belief in a eternal torcher chamber, and if you dont believe God is going to torcher alot or even some of his creation forever you are not saved. Do you really believe that? This way of understanding God and scripture is very much the same as most people who call themselves Christian only we dont see the lake of fire as a eternal state only a refinery . Will God send someone to hell for believing he is more loving and more powerful than a tradition says he is?
so you have no examples its just your opinion then ? Its ok to have an opinion but by what evidence did you make it on? You said UR destroys multitudes of souls daily but you give no examples.
How is it destructive to read all these scriptures believing what they say with out having to add or subtract words or make things up so they dont say what they say? JOHN 4:42/JOHN 17:2/ROM 11:32/ 1 COR 15:21-28/2COR5:14-19/JOHN12:47/ROM5:8/1TIM2:3-6/1JOHN2:2/1TIM4:9-11/PHIL2:10-11/ACTS3:21-25/COL1:19-22/MATT17:11/JOHN12:32/2PET 3:19/JOHN3:35/JOHN6:37-39 AND MATT11:32 All these verses we believe to be true as written if this is anathema I dont think that word means what you think it means.
so believing God can save all his creation can keep you from being saved? Thats strange maybe my Bible is in error because my Bible says that to be saved you have to believe, place your trust in Jesus, that he died and rose again and is now at Home with the father, believe with your mouth and confess with your lips Jesus is Lord . My Bible is missing the part that said and believe that God will torcher those who dont understand.
John 3:15-16
as for john 3:15-16 and the Matt 25:46 you know what I believe its not eternal ( and please dont copy and paste the list I have seen it many times) as for Matt 7:21-23 I agree that is going to happen at the end of this age but its not the end of the story . as for Jeremiah I have no idea what that has to do with this discussion. same with Rom 1:24 and 26 . Romans 1:28 I would say you need to look into the mirror when you read that but I do not believe it has anything to do with this discussion.
