How Unequal Can America Get Before We Snap?

[OldWiseGuy]

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[OldWiseGuy]

Makes me a little sad that you think compassion is EVER a waste. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Age and experience often result in cynicism.

 

[whatbogsends]

Expect, functioning under the premise of the lecture, everyone is getting rich, your neighbor is just getting even more richer, faster.

So it's not that you get a pay cut, or you get run out of business,
It's that you get a 1 dollar raise, while your neighbor gets a 10 dollar raise.
It's not that you get run out of business, it's that your business grows at 2% while your neighbor grows at 20%.

Cry me a river.

Except that what we're seeing is that relative to inflation, the wealthy are getting a 20% pay raise, and the bottom 80% of society is getting a 2% pay cut.

Wages have been stagnant, coupled with inflation, yields a net pay decrease relative to buying power.

We had a significant recovery after the crash, but that recovery only benefitted the top 1%, while the bottom 99% either had no benefit from the recovery, or had their economic woes deepen.

 

[Audacious]

Age and experience often result in cynicism.

It sucks that your heart has been hardened by age and experience.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It sucks that your heart has been hardened by age and experience.

Cynicism (not hardening of the heart) is the ability to look reality in the face and not blink.

 

[rambot]

Age and experience often result in cynicism.

Only if you let it, my friend.
For what it's worth, despite my younger age (I assume), due to my job, I feel pretty confident that my experience with the poor is probably FAAAAAAR more vast than yours (though, that is an assumption).

 

[rambot]

Except that what we're seeing is that relative to inflation, the wealthy are getting a 20% pay raise, and the bottom 80% of society is getting a 2% pay cut.

Wages have been stagnant, coupled with inflation, yields a net pay decrease relative to buying power.

We had a significant recovery after the crash, but that recovery only benefitted the top 1%, while the bottom 99% either had no benefit from the recovery, or had their economic woes deepen.

"Well the crash most severely affected those poor top 1%ers anyways. They lost the most. For sure they should be the first to benefit after the crash". -Some fool somewhere, probably

 

[Albion]

When Liberals have to make up their own quotes because they don't have real ones to present, the reader doesn't have to wonder which side has the more convincing arguments.

 

[amanuensis63]

When Liberals have to make up their own quotes because they don't have real ones to present, the reader doesn't have to wonder which side has the more convincing arguments.

Liberals don't get to make up history. And history says extreme levels of inequality of wealth result in very bad things. And most of the time the smaller the group who controls the money is, the worse it works out for them.

If rich people "earn" their great wealth it must mean they are somehow superior to the rest of us. And if they are so superior then surely they will understand that this is unsustainable and they will be hurt by it as well.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Only if you let it, my friend.
For what it's worth, despite my younger age (I assume), due to my job, I feel pretty confident that my experience with the poor is probably FAAAAAAR more vast than yours (though, that is an assumption).

Perhaps you do, but perhaps I have more experience solving problems than you (also perhaps an assumption). Part of my cynicism results from having real solutions to problems but being unable to implement them. At a certain point I shake the dust off and leave.

 

[rambot]

Perhaps you do, but perhaps I have more experience solving problems than you (also perhaps an assumption). Part of my cynicism results from having real solutions to problems but being unable to implement them. At a certain point I shake the dust off and leave.

Well first off, as someone with as much experience with solving problems as you claim to have, certainly you know that before you solve a problem one must have a very deep and thorough understanding of the problem and what are the causes of the problem. There are VERY few people on this planet who have that knowledge in regards to poverty; there are a lot of people who trumpet obvious solutions but, more often than not, it is simplified down to one factor. In fact, I would argue that Jesus was one of these people; and he accepted that they will simply exist.

God does NOT call on us to solve the problem of poverty. He calls on us to help the poor. There is a world of difference. One presumes that there is a solution to poverty (something that Jesus Himself said does not exist) and if they only "x" they'd be alright. The other shows love and compassion to someone who needs it. THAT is what God wants us to do.

And I don't think Jesus says "The poor you will always have" as some kind of throwaway line. You will always have the poor because poverty is the result of things beyond everyone's control. This is a point that is sooooooooo often lost.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well first off, as someone with as much experience with solving problems as you claim to have, certainly you know that before you solve a problem one must have a very deep and thorough understanding of the problem and what are the causes of the problem. There are VERY few people on this planet who have that knowledge in regards to poverty; there are a lot of people who trumpet obvious solutions but, more often than not, it is simplified down to one factor. In fact, I would argue that Jesus was one of these people; and he accepted that they will simply exist.

God does NOT call on us to solve the problem of poverty. He calls on us to help the poor. There is a world of difference. One presumes that there is a solution to poverty (something that Jesus Himself said does not exist) and if they only "x" they'd be alright. The other shows love and compassion to someone who needs it. THAT is what God wants us to do.

And I don't think Jesus says "The poor you will always have" as some kind of throwaway line. You will always have the poor because poverty is the result of things beyond everyone's control. This is a point that is sooooooooo often lost.

There in no 'unified theory of poverty'. Each case is different as each person is different, although the solutions might be very unified. The general rules for success are actually pretty straight forward whereas failure has many paths.

Those who have authority over the poor problem believe that they can 'solve' the problem. So they tax the hell out of us, build a huge apparatus of social programs that eventually fail miserably. The solution is simple. Just feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, care for the sick, and let it go at that. There's no need to make an industry or political career out of it.

I think the 'county farm' programs should be restored. Those involved loved them. Sadly the liberals sued for the residents to be paid for the work they did on these farms, and the liberal courts agreed. No more county farms.

 

[rambot]

There in no 'unified theory of poverty'. Each case is different as each person is different, although the solutions might be very unified. The general rules for success are actually pretty straight forward whereas failure has many paths.

Those who have authority over the poor problem believe that they can 'solve' the problem. So they tax the hell out of us, build a huge apparatus of social programs that eventually fail miserably. The solution is simple. Just feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, care for the sick, and let it go at that. There's no need to make an industry or political career out of it.

I think the 'county farm' programs should be restored. Those involved loved them. Sadly the liberals sued for the residents to be paid for the work they did on these farms, and the liberal courts agreed. No more county farms.

Wait. You've been saying you've become cynical and you believe the poor wouldn't accept your help anyways so you no longer help them. NOW you're blaming the problem on the government. I understand that.
But why take your anger at the government out on the poor? All they want is help.
What constitutes feeding? What constitutes housing and what constitutes "Care" for the sick? Is there a reason why poor people would deserve any less than members of your family when it comes to meeting those obligations?

 

[Aldebaran]

Wait. You've been saying you've become cynical and you believe the poor wouldn't accept your help anyways so you no longer help them. NOW you're blaming the problem on the government. I understand that.
But why take your anger at the government out on the poor? All they want is help.
What constitutes feeding? What constitutes housing and what constitutes "Care" for the sick? Is there a reason why poor people would deserve any less than members of your family when it comes to meeting those obligations?

Many of the poor I've encountered live a cycle that they're not willing to break. It might be due to cigarettes, beer, drugs, gambling--you name it. It's not that the help isn't there, but rather the willingness to use that help in a constructive way.

 

[rambot]

Many of the poor I've encountered live a cycle that they're not willing to break. It might be due to cigarettes, beer, drugs, gambling--you name it. It's not that the help isn't there, but rather the willingness to use that help in a constructive way.

Rarely is addiction the only issue. Addiction is ALWAYS a symptom of a bigger problem (usually trauma). Read up on Gabor Mate's work on addiction.

 

[FanthatSpark]

A lot of them are mentally ill. Some go to libraries to post on the internet.

Say it aint soo! Then again they got nice bathrooms too. One stop shop for free TP .

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Say it aint soo! Then again they got nice bathrooms too. One stop shop for free TP .

If the bathrooms are closed they just poop in a corner somewhere.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Wait. You've been saying you've become cynical and you believe the poor wouldn't accept your help anyways so you no longer help them.

I don't help them directly. My taxes do however.

NOW you're blaming the problem on the government. I understand that.

Good, because that's where the buck stops.

But why take your anger at the government out on the poor?

I'm not doing either. Neither the poor or the government want my help, so why should I do anything other than pay my taxes.

All they want is help.

They want help getting drugs and alcohol.

What constitutes feeding? What constitutes housing and what constitutes "Care" for the sick? Is there a reason why poor people would deserve any less than members of your family when it comes to meeting those obligations?

Whatever I provide for food and housing is what constitutes that help (I'll leave the medical care for the free clinics or the 'uncompensated medical services' provided by most hospitals.

The poor don't deserve the same as I provide for my family, and they don't expect it.

 

[rambot]

I don't help them directly.

really? The simplest directive given by Jesus Himself and it isn't worth your time?

My taxes do however.

Yes, apparently with great apprehension on your part.

I'm not doing either. Neither the poor or the government want my help, so why should I do anything other than pay my taxes.

So what you've done is gone FAR past cynicism and gone into crotchety old man disattached from the suffering of others (but still convinced he knows the solutions). You think they don't want your help, you are wrong.

They want help getting drugs and alcohol.

Ok, so clearly you know very little about the poor. As I thought. So this idea that you have more experience thinking about solutions is irrelevant since you clearly don't even understand the problem.

Whatever I provide for food and housing is what constitutes that help (I'll leave the medical care for the free clinics or the 'uncompensated medical services' provided by most hospitals.

Let's be clear you do NOT provide that. You grudgingly allow some of the money you are LEGALLY OBLIGATED to pay to go towards them. Geez
2 Corinthians 9:7 is a completely abandoned verse here isn't it?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

really? The simplest directive given by Jesus Himself and it isn't worth your time?

The poor were more visible in his day. I don't know who they are today.

Yes, apparently with great apprehension on your part.

I don't even think about money that I don't have in my possession.

So what you've done is gone FAR past cynicism and gone into crotchety old man disattached from the suffering of others (but still convinced he knows the solutions). You think they don't want your help, you are wrong.

The solutions are well known. It's the problems that are the mystery.

I know what I would do, and the poor wouldn't like it. As I said it's my way or the highway. The way it is now I give my money to someone, who spends it in ways I don't like. That's nonsense. Like the man said, "I no maka da rules, I no playa da game." However, I'm quite generous if I can make the rules.

Ok, so clearly you know very little about the poor. As I thought. So this idea that you have more experience thinking about solutions is irrelevant since you clearly don't even understand the problem.

Who is responsible for educating us about the poor problem? I haven't received a detailed report from a single caseworker.

Let's be clear you do NOT provide that. You grudgingly allow some of the money you are LEGALLY OBLIGATED to pay to go towards them. Geez

I have no problem with how my taxes are spent. If I don't like something the government is doing I just pretend that my taxes went to something they're doing that I like.