How to walk in the Spirit.

[BNR32FAN]

No, this involves OSAS beginning with the concept that man cannot possibly be saved apart from God, which I also insist on, while maintaining that man's will is involved from beginning to end, even after being justified/born again. Which means that man is not OSAS. We can stray. As the bible makes clear.

Amen hence “if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭
Paul’s message to Timothy, both saved men who are capable of losing their salvation depending on what they choose to do in their life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are just too many verses warning, admonishing, encouraging, etc, with eternal life at stake. And Scripture also lists sins that will alienate us from God all over again, and the church, for its part, has distinguished between the kind of acts that demonstrate a grossly depraved heart that crucifies Christ and love vs lighter acts that are still sinful-outside the will of God- yet don't cause harm to neighbor in such a way or to such a degree that love is completely mocked and trampled on by the act.

To sum up, obedience isn't guaranteed for a believer, nor is obedience overlooked or disregarded for a believer. We're empowered to overcome. Our sins are forgiven and we're expected to 'go, and sin no more'. We can do it, with His help, and only with His help. That's what it means to 'remain in Him, apart from whom we can do nothing' -John 15. Would we think that the uglier varieties of sin, especially, should be excused, as long as we believe that we're not sinners in God's eyes, as if faith would somehow place a rift or distinction between the need to be righteous and actually being personally righteous?

Amen I couldn’t think of a better way to say it my friend. God has always had expectations of His children since creation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The waters get a bit muddy regarding this because it seems to variate from loss of salvation through outright rejection by way of apostacy to simply straying away. Like we have to keep working hard to keep our justification, because if we accidently stray away some, we'll lose it. The way one person on CF teaches it, it's like we have one foot in hell and the other foot is on a banana peel. Another describes it as being like walking a tightrope over the lake of fire.

I haven’t seen anyone on this thread advocating condemnation for stumbling in sin. Perhaps I missed that post, what number was it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't recall him saying anything about the doctrine of predestination.

It definitely sounds like predestination to me. If it’s up to God and not us then what else can that mean?

 

[ozso]

Its really amazing how so many people reject what the church taught from the very beginning and believe a theology that didn’t exist until the 16th century and has been rejected by every single church established by the apostles.

In other words there was a reformation around the time that people finally got access to scripture to see for themselves what was written, which from I've heard, the Roman Catholic Church tried to prevent to the point of burning people at the stake.

 

[ozso]

I haven’t seen anyone on this thread advocating condemnation for stumbling in sin. Perhaps I missed that post, what number was it?

I meant the overall worldview. One CF member who pushes it so hard isn't in this thread. But the doctrine seems to be all over the place from my perspective. I still haven't pinned it down completely. The more it gets explained the more complicated it seems to get. While I've seen a lot of verses used to back it up, when I've read the entire passage those verses are in, I've found that some don't seem to fit. So there seems to be fudging involved to some degree.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I meant the overall worldview. One CF member who pushes it so hard isn't in this thread. But the doctrine seems to be all over the place from my perspective. I still haven't pinned it down completely. The more it gets explained the more complicated it seems to get. While I've seen a lot of verses used to back it up, when I've read the entire passage those verses are in, I've found that some don't seem to fit. So there seems to be fudging involved to some degree.

Oh I’m sorry I thought you were referring to someone in this thread.

 

[ozso]

It definitely sounds like predestination to me. If it’s up to God and not us then what else can that mean?

I haven't seen the OP saying that God predestines an elect few to irresistibly believe. As in they are "forced" to believe. In this case it seems what's being said is they are only "forced" to stay born-again once they have made that decision freely of their own will.

 

[ozso]

Oh I’m sorry I thought you were referring to someone in this thread.

Nah, those presenting it in this thread have been reasonable. Adamant, but reasonable. This is pretty much the first time I've gotten the Catholic view of it, which seems to mirror the Protestant doctrine known as Lordship Salvation. Although when it comes to those who teach LS, some believe in OSAS while others don't.

 

[ozso]

I haven’t seen anyone on this thread advocating condemnation for stumbling in sin. Perhaps I missed that post, what number was it?

A second reply to this is, I'm not entirely sure how stumbling is defined (in the overall worldview). That's the problem many have with it. Because it seems to have unclear parameters and for some tends to lead to them always doubting their salvation. And I don't mean the "carnal christians" who "live like the devil" because I doubt they worry about it. It's the sensitive ones who care, who develop anxiety over it and question every little thing feeling like they don't measure up. I'm sure the enemy has a great time playing head games on such Christians causing them to despair.

 

[Sidon]

Revelation says Jesus is judging your "works".

If you are born again, then you will meet Jesus, and your deeds "done in His body", will be revealed as... 1 Corinthians 3:12.
Exactly what happens is this.....God, who is Jesus, will examine not your works, but your motive and intent for every "good deed" you ever did, regarding your Christianity.
God looks upon the HEART, as the HEART, the MOTIVE, the INTENT is what is judged and not the work itself.
Its the "why did you do it", not what you did......that is what God sees, now, and at the Bema seat.

 

[Sidon]

You can lose your salvation if you've tasted of the heavenly gift and rejected it later.

Jesus said you have "eternal life" and you will "never Perish"., if you are born again.
So, that isn't a lie.
Dont try to make it one, fhansen.

Jesus told you that "no man can take the born again, out of His hand", and that also mean the person themselves......
See it?

Also..... "tasted the heavenly gift" and "crucified Christ afresh", and "trodden under foot the blood of Jesus", as your FATHER's DID, is what Paul said, to the unsaved Hebrews.

So, let me explain this for you.

1.) Signs of an Apostle, + the 9 spiritual gifts.....are the "heavenly gifts".
So, when Paul was preaching the Gospel to unsaved Hebrews, in Chapter 10, and again, in Acts 28, he was performing the "signs following them that believe", which in this case, is the "sign of an Apostle".
This is 2nd Corinthians 12:12.
Paul the Apostle is providing these Hateful Christ rejecting Jews, with these heaven gifts, right before their eyes, SIGNS, as "jews require a sign".... as PROOF of the Truth of the Gospel.
They are tasting this heavenly gift, they are WITNESSING IT< and they still reject Christ, same as their "fathers did", even AFTER seeing Paul's miraculous "signs of an Apostle".

Every Miracle of Jesus was a SIGN to the Jew, as "jews require a sign".
They saw them, and Crucified Christ anyway.
These Jews in Paul's epistle to the "Hebrews", unsaved jews, are doing the same thing, as when you reject Christ, you have "crucified Him afresh" as Christ Rejection is driving the nails into Him again, reader.

 

[Sidon]

Perhaps if you'd read my posts more carefully you'd understand the gospel a little better by now.

If you understood the Gospel, you would not believe that you can lose your salvation.
You would understand that the Blood of Jesus, can't fail.
You teach that it can, and does.

When you no longer believe that, if that day ever comes, then you have understood what it means to be "made righteous", as "born again".

 

[Sidon]

You've ripped this prayer out of context and applied it to those who have not passed the criteria of the verses themselves.

.

The blood of God, is the only Salvation God accepts on behalf of a person to redeem them and give them eternal life.
There is no "self effort" that can cause God to accept you or keep you.
God receives a person as a "SON", only because the person received Christ as their Savior.
This is to be "born again".
Jesus said..>>"you must be born again".

 

[Sidon]

I don't recall him saying anything about the doctrine of predestination.

You are correct.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said you have "eternal life" and you will "never Perish"., if you are born again.

No He didn’t. Where do you think He said that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus told you that "no man can take the born again, out of His hand", and that also mean the person themselves......

Oh now wait a minute that’s a “symbolic verse”, remember? You can’t take it literally and formulate a doctrine based on that verse. John 10:29 does not teach that a person can never leave God’s hand. If I’m holding a rabbit in my hand and I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand, does that mean that I said the rabbit cannot leap from my hand or that I cannot throw the rabbit away? No it doesn’t, it simply means that no one can cause us to lose our salvation. It doesn’t mean that we can’t cause ourselves to lose our salvation. Hence “He cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit” and “anyone who does not abide/remain in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Also..... "tasted the heavenly gift" and "crucified Christ afresh", and "trodden under foot the blood of Jesus", as your FATHER's DID, is what Paul said, to the unsaved Hebrews.


So, let me explain this for you.

1.) Signs of an Apostle, + the 9 spiritual gifts.....are the "heavenly gifts".
So, when Paul was preaching the Gospel to unsaved Hebrews, in Chapter 10, and again, in Acts 28, he was performing the "signs following them that believe", which in this case, is the "sign of an Apostle".
This is 2nd Corinthians 12:12.
Paul the Apostle is providing these Hateful Christ rejecting Jews, with these heaven gifts, right before their eyes, SIGNS, as "jews require a sign".... as PROOF of the Truth of the Gospel.
They are tasting this heavenly gift, they are WITNESSING IT< and they still reject Christ, same as their "fathers did", even AFTER seeing Paul's miraculous "signs of an Apostle".

Every Miracle of Jesus was a SIGN to the Jew, as "jews require a sign".
They saw them, and Crucified Christ anyway.
These Jews in Paul's epistle to the "Hebrews", unsaved jews, are doing the same thing, as when you reject Christ, you have "crucified Him afresh" as Christ Rejection is driving the nails into Him again, reader.

He said they “have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit”. He didn’t say they had merely witnessed the Holy Spirit.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Sidon]

No He didn’t. Where do you think He said that?

Were did i find out that Jesus said this to me?
In the New Testament.
In John 6:47
Jesus Speaking.

""Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"""

Bnr32fan.... notice this carefully....."HATH everlasting life".

"hate", means has or have.
it means to POSSESS IT, currently, and the context is Life as "ETERNAL">

Let me try it again.
Jesus says.>>"He that Believes in me, HAS, eternal Life".

The born again are not waiting for it.
The born again HAVE IT.
Jesus said so.
Believe it.

 

[Sidon]

Oh now wait a minute that’s a “symbolic verse”,

No its not symbolic.
Its literal.
To be in Jesus's hand is to be born again.
Being born again is eternal life.
All of this is literal.

vs, "abiding in the vine".

See, Jesus is not a plant.
He's God.
A "vine" is a plant.
That's symbolic.
Whereas the HAND of the LIVING CHRIST< is real, and all the born again are in his Hand.
All the born again are "the BODY of Christ" and that is not symbolic.
This is the same as all the born again being the "bride' of Christ.
This is true, literally.

The idea of "hand", is found in Colossians 1:16, and John 1:10, where God, who is JESUS< is shown to be the Creator, who is the pre-incarnate "Word".