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fhansen

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Well, maybe you don't know what it means to know Him then, as John understood it- and Paul in 1 Cor 13-because that knowledge speaks of a much more intimate relationship than you're apparently aware of- a relationship that man is made for. It comes by knowing...Him. And to know Him in that way is to love Him, and to love Him as we should-and will-is the height of man's purpose and perfection-and therefore, incidentally, of his justice or righteousness.

But we may not be so far off on this particular matter -the bible has several ways of describing our relationship with God. I'll submit in any case that we must remain in Him-and that's still an option throughout our lives.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So people don’t even have to believe to be saved as long as they believed at one time in their life they are saved no matter what they do afterwards?
 
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fhansen

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Rom 4:3 might be the most compelling passage for your position, perhaps, but James jumped in there to provide some understanding and balance. As the Corinthians were already thinking their justification was unlinked from actual justice/righteousness, with antinomian tendencies now, they were influenced by the notion that one could behave however they wanted while still being just in God’s eyes- regardless of their actions IOW. So James tells us, speaking of Abraham:
You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. James 2 :22

So it was crucial for James, as I’m sure it was for Paul, that justification, the act of being made just, was not divorced from the possession of real, personal righteousness for the new creation in Christ-in being made just IOW. And this would explain why we’d bother to start behaving better afterwards: because real change had been made in us, even if only in “seedling” form, in need of being utilized and tested. With no change, with a strictly imputed righteousness, still fallen in actuality for all practical purposes, we’d still be doing as we did before. So the concept of imputed or declared righteousness works for understanding the forgiveness of sin, for this part of the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


But it doesn’t convey this part:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.”


With the New Covenant God offers Himself to us through the person of God the Son. If we say yes, if we turn to Him in faith, that act, itself, is the first right and just step for man. And it pleases God immensely because it means that man is now on the pathway towards his own perfection, towards that which he was created for, towards goodness over evil. We’re justified in and by that act, itself, and, intrinsic to it, is the life of grace, living by the Spirit, real righteousness now poured into our hearts. The choice to be and to remain in that state is a continuous one that we make as we pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus, or not. Sanctification is no more than a continuation of this same process begun at our conversion. At the end of the day God will be the judge of it all.
 
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Clare73

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Rom 4:3 might be the most compelling passage for your position,
To what position are you referring?
So it was crucial for James, as I’m sure it was for Paul, that justification, the act of being made just, was not divorced from the possession of real, personal righteousness
Did you read the post to which you are responding here?

That was presented there.

See my quote above.
 
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fhansen

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To what position are you referring?
Well, I was referring to that which was being discussed, imputed/declared vs given/infused/imparted righteousness.
Did you read the post to which you are responding here?
The post:
`
If by this you mean to say that sanctification is a necessary part of making man just-of his justification- and therefore of his salvation, then I agree:

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."
Rom 6:22
 
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ozso

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So people don’t even have to believe to be saved as long as they believed at one time in their life they are saved no matter what they do afterwards?

Yes.

Just as once you're born you stay born; once you're born-again, you stay born-again.

That's what the OP has been saying the entire time.

What can be said in a single sentence has been dragged out over 500 pages.
 
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fhansen

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Here's John MacArthur's brief explanation of how it works:

MacArthur doesn't quite fully get the gospel. From the decision to accept the gift of faith through to the end of our lives while we work out our salvation with He who works in us it's not either/or, but both/and. He first, we following, or not following, or following for awhile but not enduring to the end. God wants our wills involved, everyone's, but some don't come at all.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9

Following Christ is a series of daily choices- to pick up our cross. And, yes, if He doesn't sustain us we'll fail. But we can fail either way.
 
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ozso

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Funny thing is MacArthur also says a lot of what you've been saying and uses the same verses to back it up. This starts out with Matthew 7:21-27

 
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Ligurian

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Yep happens so often. People read a verse about a specific group of people and think it applies to everyone throughout all time. One prime example is 1 John 2:19.


What I never understand is Christians who don't worry at all about what Jesus said.

John.12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.
 
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Ligurian

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Its the "why did you do it", not what you did......that is what God sees, now, and at the Bema seat.

Matthew.7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew.21:19 And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
 
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Ligurian

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Jesus said..>>"you must be born again".

Born Again specifically to See The Kingdom of God

John.3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus teaches the Gospel of the Kingdom of God

Matthew.13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him,
Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it
is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven,
but to them it is not given.

John.4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew.24:14 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If you keep Jesus' commandments then the Holy Spirit abides with you

John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you
another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth
 
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Clare73

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I presented only the post's conclusion. The post was rather lengthy and included the exegesis of Romans 5:18-19 on the imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind.

Works of sanctification are a necessary part of justification, as works are a necessary part of faith, but the works neither save (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5) nor justify (Romans 4:5), only the faith does both.
 
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fhansen

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And yet sanctification is more than works, but holiness, inner change, most notably the virtue called love which happens to produce works by its nature. That righteousness should define the justice or righteousness of justification, and explain why a believer begins to sin less and help his neighbor more, such things as he must do to inherit eternal life. As we know from Heb 12:14 and elsewhere
"...without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Heck, God won't even forgive us our sins unless we forgive others (Matt 6:15), such is His demand that we follow Him in His love and mercy. And who would or should argue against such a righteous demand anyway? Again, as James tells us,
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

Faith is the doorway to righteousness; it doesn't define it. And all of this, whether faith or holiness and righteousness and love and the works they produce are all gifts of grace flowing from the one same Source anyway.
 
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ozso

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That's one of MacArthur's favorite verses, which he uses the same way. But haven't you said that holiness is given to us by God as the result of being born-again aka born of the spirit?


So if we are born-again, born of the spirit, aren't we automatically endowed with these attributes from the one same Source? If not, how can we manage acceptable levels of, faith, holiness, righteousness and love through our own ablity apart from the one same Source? In other words if it all comes from God, doesn't that mean we already have it? Or is it that even though it all comes from God, we still have to achieve on our own what God has already given us? I'm not playing around here, this is honestly how confusing it gets to me.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Funny thing is MacArthur also says a lot of what you've been saying and uses the same verses to back it up. This starts out with Matthew 7:21-27


McArthur is a Calvinist. So his teachings are far from being similar to our’s.
 
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fhansen

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Yes, it gets confusing, and there are different varieties of beliefs out there. Differences involve the nature of justification, and what if any, role the human will plays in it all. So Catholicism teaches this, which should be similar to Eastern Orthodox teachings in general:
1989 "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
"Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life."
Rom 6:22-23

So justification is taught to be a one-time event, as a new birth into God's family, but also one that must continue to be realized even more as we grow, as we grow nearer to God, which is our purpose, and therefore even greater in justice, holiness, righteousness. And that righteousness, that love- to truly flesh out the meaning of the term- will be challenged throughout our lives as were still attracted to sin, not yet fully sanctified and renewed IOW. We can always stray from the family values.

In Catholic teaching, going all the way back, man can do nothing to turn himself to God; man is lost.
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42


So in Catholic teaching the will of man is never completely uninvolved, in that he can say no. Another way to put this is to say that grace is resistible. Some Protestant denominations agree with this while others adamantly reject it. Justification is totally a free gift either way in response to our faith.

Some state that we can't possibly lose that state of justice once we receive it, due especially to the fact that they consider it to be imputed only and not given as a personal possession. In Catholicism however, righteousness is a gift and one which we can waste and squander or which we can invest in terms of the parable of the talents for example. Again, the will of man is never totally out of the picture so we must work out our salvation, we must grow in the sanctity which leads to eternal life, cooperating with grace and then let God decide at the end how well we've done with all that. Meanwhile, If we're honest with ourselves, we should have a pretty good idea.

"…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
.” Rom 5:21
 
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fhansen

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Paul is only saying, 'Look, people, removing a little piece of flesh from your body does not make you holy and neither does merely observing a set of rules externally which is nothing but a pretense of holiness unless motivated by the right reason. And we're giving you the right reason and motivation now, the right way; you must turn to God in faith, and let Him be the source of your holiness, relying on Him instead of yourself, which is the problem with man to begin with. To be "under the law" means to be self-reliant at fulfilling the law, an impossibility as the law and our failed attempts at keeping it should finally teach us.

Then once you receive this gift of righteousness you must live it, you must walk in it, and as you remain in Me I will sustain you in it, or lift you back up again if you slip and fall and then truly want to return to Me. I'm on your side, and want the very best for you-more than you can begin to imagine- and only want you to remain with Me. But I'll never force that upon you. Love is the goal, and it comes from Me. But just as sight is also a gift from Me, it does no good until we choose to open our eyes. Likewise love is both a gift and a choice, that we must make daily.
 
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