How to understand the Trinity?

[RileyG]

It's a mystery. We can never truly comprehend a mystery.

 

[Erose]

The Trinity is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean we should not meditate on the great mystery and try to learn as much about our God as He is willing to teach us.

The best way to look at this beautiful revelation is two questions: “What is God?” And “Who is God?”.

If you keep these two questions separate and not in the same sentence, i.e. “What and Who is God?” It makes this mystery much more understandable.

When we ask “What is God?” The answer is One Divine Being. “Who is God?” The answer is three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Of course there are other sub-questions below these two primary questions, such as the relationship and ministries, Agape, etc. But these two questions are the foundational questions to begin. These two questions have been answered, especially in the Ecumenical Councils and in the teachings of the great Doctors of our Faith.

The question “Who and what is God?”, ie. How One Being can be Three Persons, this is the ultimate mystery, that the greatest minds of our faith have been unable to answer. That being said, there is nothing wrong with meditating on this mystery and all mysteries of our Faith, as long as you stay within the parameters of our Deposit of Faith.

 

[Clare73]

It's a mystery. We can never truly comprehend a mystery.

The NT doesn't use the word "mystery" for the incomprehensible.
It uses the word "mystery" for new revelation not given before; e.g.,
the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16),
the death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:7),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51), etc.

 

[concretecamper]

The NT doesn't use the word "mystery" for the incomprehensible.
It uses the word "mystery" for new revelation not given before; e.g.,

I don't think @RileyG was attempting to use the NT meaning of mystery. It seems to me he was just saying it's a plain 'ol mystery. Ugh.

 

[Clare73]

I don't think @RileyG was attempting to use the NT meaning of mystery. It seems to me he was just saying it's a plain 'ol mystery.

Good for you!

 

[concretecamper]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

I would encourage that you read the Early Church Fathers and see how they came to understand the Trinity. The Bible does not explain the Doctrine of the Trinity most who call themselves Christians believe. The Athanasius Creed is a great place to start. Good Bless and good luck with your search.

 

[Clare73]

Signature:
No Mary, no Jesus.

No Mahalalel, no Jesus.
No Arphaxad, no Jesus.
No Amminadah, no Jesus.
No Elmadam, no Jesus.
No Joda, no Jesus, etc.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

Neither.

The Trinity is a Mystery of faith that can only be confessed, and is arguably best articulated in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

In addition to what my friend @ViaCrucis said, I would also suggest you read the Athanasian Creed, which provides a very good definition of the Trinity.

Basically, the Trinity is one God in three persons, with three hypostases, and one common divine essence, but the second Person of the Trinity, the Incarnate Word of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is also consubstantial with humanity. It is also helpful to consider the meaning of the Greek word we translate as “person”, prosopon.

I suggest the book The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, for its reflections on the doctrine of the Trinity; this book is also extremely popular among Eastern Catholics, such as the Ukrainian Catholics.

 

[Dennis_Hogg]

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
As we look at God's creation, we are observing a creation that is intended by God to reveal attributes about Himself
Rom 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
If we are going to describe the universe, we must describe it in aspects of space, matter and time (three). If we want to describe space, we again need descriptions height, width, and depth (three). If we want to describe matter, we need to describe a substance in its solid, liquid, and gas phases in order to fully describe it (three). Time must be described in past, present, and future (three).
As the universe is God's handiwork, why would we expect anything else? God Himself must be described in three.

 

[concretecamper]

If we want to describe matter, we need to describe a substance in its solid, liquid, and gas phases in order to fully describe it (three)

Um, plasma makes 4

 

[Dennis_Hogg]

Um, plasma makes 4

If I ask you to describe water, you would describe it in each of three phases. In plasma, it is still matter, but is not any longer water. In plasma. it is indistinguishable from plasma hydrogen and plasma oxygen. Plasma as a state of matter is sort of like "is Pluto a planet?".

 

[concretecamper]

If I ask you to describe water, you would describe it in each of three phases. In plasma, it is still matter, but is not any longer water. In plasma. it is indistinguishable from plasma hydrogen and plasma oxygen. Plasma as a state of matter is sort of like "is Pluto a planet?".

plasma is a 4th state, that's all.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If I ask you to describe water, you would describe it in each of three phases. In plasma, it is still matter, but is not any longer water. In plasma. it is indistinguishable from plasma hydrogen and plasma oxygen. Plasma as a state of matter is sort of like "is Pluto a planet?".

The Trinity cannot be compared to water, or to states of matter. While under some very particular circumstances it is possible to have water simultaneously in the three standard phases of matter (very specific conditions that require a highly controlled lab equipment), in general water can only exist in a single state at a time.

It's why trying to use analogies for the Trinity either fall very short, or worse, lead to very wrong understandings of the Trinity. The three phases or states of matter analogy, rather than actually being helpful in teaching the Trinity, can actually lead to the heresy known as Modalism.

Early heretics like Sabellius, Noetus, and Praxeas, taught that God is a single Hypostasis who reveals Himself in three masks (Greek singular prosopon, plural prosopa, meaning "face" or "mask"), like an actor in a Greek drama who changes masks to play different roles. That is, God reveals Himself as "Father" by presenting Himself as "Father", but then can reveal Himself as "Son" in the Incarnation. Thus the Sabellians/Modalists taught that Jesus was God the Father in the flesh, and thus argued that the Father died on the cross (Patripassionism, "The Father suffered [on the cross]ism"; another name for Modalism/Sabellianism).

This was firmly rejected as heretical, because it denies the distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus isn't His own Father, Jesus is the Son of the Father; from all eternity begotten of the Father. It is because Jesus is the Son that He is God.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; each is Himself truly and entirely God, the same God.

Which is why, for example, the Nicene Creed clearly states that we believe and confess one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten, not created; begotten of the Father from all eternity, of the same Being/Substance as the Father, and therefore truly and really God even as the Father is truly and really God. And of the Holy Spirit we believe and confess that He is Lord and God, eternally proceeding from the Father, and is worshiped and glorified as God, just as we worship and glorify the Father and the Son.

One God, three Persons. Neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Being.

And thus God, in His infinite and incomprehensible Being--and the reality of His being Trinity--cannot be compared to anything in all of creation, whether visible or invisible. He cannot be compared to the angels, nor to anything in the physical creation either, Isaiah 40:25, Isaiah 46:5.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dennis_Hogg]

DearViaCrucis
You are implying something that I did not say nor intend to say:

The Trinity cannot be compared to water, or to states of matter. While under some very particular circumstances it is possible to have water simultaneously in the three standard phases of matter (very specific conditions that require a highly controlled lab equipment), in general water can only exist in a single state at a time.

It's why trying to use analogies for the Trinity either fall very short, or worse, lead to very wrong understandings of the Trinity. The three phases or states of matter analogy, rather than actually being helpful in teaching the Trinity, can actually lead to the heresy known as Modalism.

Early heretics like Sabellius, Noetus, and Praxeas, taught that God is a single Hypostasis who reveals Himself in three masks (Greek singular prosopon, plural prosopa, meaning "face" or "mask"), like an actor in a Greek drama who changes masks to play different roles. That is, God reveals Himself as "Father" by presenting Himself as "Father", but then can reveal Himself as "Son" in the Incarnation. Thus the Sabellians/Modalists taught that Jesus was God the Father in the flesh, and thus argued that the Father died on the cross (Patripassionism, "The Father suffered [on the cross]ism"; another name for Modalism/Sabellianism).

This was firmly rejected as heretical, because it denies the distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus isn't His own Father, Jesus is the Son of the Father; from all eternity begotten of the Father. It is because Jesus is the Son that He is God.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; each is Himself truly and entirely God, the same God.

Which is why, for example, the Nicene Creed clearly states that we believe and confess one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten, not created; begotten of the Father from all eternity, of the same Being/Substance as the Father, and therefore truly and really God even as the Father is truly and really God. And of the Holy Spirit we believe and confess that He is Lord and God, eternally proceeding from the Father, and is worshiped and glorified as God, just as we worship and glorify the Father and the Son.

One God, three Persons. Neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Being.

And thus God, in His infinite and incomprehensible Being--and the reality of His being Trinity--cannot be compared to anything in all of creation, whether visible or invisible. He cannot be compared to the angels, nor to anything in the physical creation either, Isaiah 40:25, Isaiah 46:5.

I am not saying that as water can be transformed into three phases of matter so also can God transform Himself into three distinct beings, nor did I imply that.

What I said was that if one is to describe the creation that God made, it takes three descriptions to describe it. Correspondingly, for each of those three components of creation, it takes three descriptions each to properly describe each of matter, space, and time. Why then should we expect anything else from the Creator that it takes three descriptions to explain His nature?

 

[The Liturgist]

Um, plasma makes 4

And Bose-Einstein condensates make five, and degenerate matter in the form of Neutronium makes six, and “quark-gluon soup” which the Large Hadron Collider generates and which may exist in the cores of quark stars makes seven, and there are even more peculiar phases.

For example, protons, neutrons, electrons, and their building blocks quarks and gluons can be considered on their own to be analogous to an element, with distinct boiling and melting points.

If we are going to describe the universe, we must describe it in aspects of space, matter and time (three)

Actually, you need spacetime (understood as being unified, a fact proven by the experimental validation of the speed of light, which in a sense is the speed at which events propagate through spacetime, and the practical observation of the predicted effect of time dilation), energy and matter (which are equivalent, as shown by the famous simplification of Einstein’s equation, E=mc^2 ). Then you need gravitation, which is the result of matter and energy interactimg with spacetime. Finally you need a sort of cosmological constant to reflect the vacuum energy of spacetime, which is needed to explain dark energy, which in turn is needed to account for the expansion of the universe.

 

[ViaCrucis]

DearViaCrucis
You are implying something that I did not say nor intend to say:


I am not saying that as water can be transformed into three phases of matter so also can God transform Himself into three distinct beings, nor did I imply that.

What I said was that if one is to describe the creation that God made, it takes three descriptions to describe it. Correspondingly, for each of those three components of creation, it takes three descriptions each to properly describe each of matter, space, and time. Why then should we expect anything else from the Creator that it takes three descriptions to explain His nature?

And I'm saying that the Trinity doesn't correspond to anything in creation. The Trinity cannot be described, compared, or analogized to anything about created reality; it can only be believed and confessed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Charles Emmanuel]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

The trinity is the chain of the work-ship from the Father to the Son and down to the Holy Spirit which we are enjoying. In the Old Testament was the reign of the father when only the prophet hear directly from God. In the beginning of the New Testament Jesus Christ came that he may grant us access, so everyone can hear and talk to God directly but this can only be possible with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[John Caldwell]

so mysterious

It's like an onion . . . well . . . maybe not an onion. It's like a clover, except it's not really like a clover. So let's forget the clover. You know how a book has a beginning, middle, and end? Well, it's not like that either.

The Father and Son are One. The Spirit is the Spirit of God. But the Father is not the Son, and neither are the Spirit. Guess that's enough for me. It is something we cannot truly understand (we are not God) but can accept insofar as what has been revealed.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's like an onion . . . well . . . maybe not an onion. It's like a clover, except it's not really like a clover. So let's forget the clover. You know how a book has a beginning, middle, and end? Well, it's not like that either.

The Father and Son are One. The Spirit is the Spirit of God. But the Father is not the Son, and neither are the Spirit. Guess that's enough for me. It is something we cannot truly understand (we are not God) but can accept insofar as what has been revealed.

Importantly, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are persons. Sometimes people confuse the Spirit with some kind of impersonal force, but this is not the case, for the Spirit is a distinct uncreated person that proceeds from the Father alone, contra the filioque, just as the Son is begotten by the Father before all ages, with a distinct hypostasis, and is of one divine essence with the Father and the Son.

The Spirit interestingly is the person in the Holy Trinity we interact with the most, yet paradoxically address in prayer the least. Occasionally the blessed have a Christophany, which can be life changing, and sometimes we pray to Jesus Christ, but usually we pray to Jesus Christ in the name of the Father, while realizing that God the Father is probably beyond our ability to perceive visually; the Ancient of Days is thought by most Orthodox historians to have been a Christophany, although this is disputed; however we can assert that God in His divine essence is totally incomprehensible, and only his uncreated energies can be discerned, according to the fathers of the early church (I used to think this was a Palamist doctrine, and then to my surprise found it in the fourth century writings of the Cappodacians).

Our Lord is of course fully perceptible according to his humanity, which is hypostatically united with his divinity, and indeed the Oriental Orthodox would say naturally united as well, albeit without change, confusion, division or separation, as my Coptic friends @dzheremi and @Pavel Mosko will be pleased to hear me affirm.