How to understand the Trinity?

[SimonPeter111]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

 

[trophy33]

Neither.

Its a unique nature of God to be threefold and how it exactly works is a mystery. Therefore we cannot "understand it", we can only accept it.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @SimonPeter111, the church formulated the doctrine of the Trinity to circumscribe and safeguard the truth that the Bible teaches us concerning the nature of the Godhead, not to explain it to us, because that is simply beyond any of us.

Therefore, the nature of the Godhead is considered to be a Biblical "mystery" (meaning that while we cannot fully grasp/understand it, at least not on this side of the grave anyway, we know that it is true nevertheless because the Bible tells us that it is).

The Trinity teaches us that there is one Divine Being, God, who exists both from and to everlasting as three Divine Persons, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit .. e.g. Matthew 28:19.

These two creeds may help:

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen

The Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
​

--David
p.s. - here's a short, funny video on what the Trinity is NOT, as well as why analogies about the Trinity never work. From our friends at Lutheran Satire.

Enjoy

​

 

[Andrewn]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?

No, this is tritheism, even though some Christians may incorrectly understand the Trinity this way.

Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

This is a very interesting question. Avatars are a concept within Hinduism that signifies the material appearance of a powerful deity, goddess or spirit on Earth to perform a particular task, which in most of the times is bringing dharma back. Theologically, the term is most often associated with the Hindu god Vishnu. The most known and celebrated avatars of Vishnu, within the Vaishnavism traditions of Hinduism, are Krishna, Rama, Narayana and Vasudeva.

This is quite different from the incarnation of Jesus Christ who was born of a virgin and took an actual human body, soul, and spirit. The following is a recent discussion about the Holy Trinity in which some unorthodox views, including the view of a Super Council, were addressed:

One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity

 

[Andrewn]

p.s. - here's a short, funny video on what the Trinity is NOT, as well as why analogies about the Trinity never work. From our friends at Lutheran Satire.

Every time someone asks about the Trinity, this cute video is posted. It ends with the bottomline being that "The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but is understood only through faith
and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian creed."

This basically means, "Shut up and parrot the Athanasian Creed without trying to understand it." Is this really what Christianity in the view of the video-maker is about: becoming like parrots?

 

[Joined2krist]

Gen 1 and 2, John 1:1-2 The natural human mind cannot understand spiritual truth

 

[Joined2krist]

.

 

[Petros2015]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

It's kind of like that facebook relationship status: It's Complicated

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

This is important insight given by Jesus Christ of Nazareth:

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

They make their home in the beliver through the Holy Spirit. Three work as one from the beginning.

Blessings

 

[HTacianas]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

The Trinity is neither a council nor an avatar. You'll find those beliefs among some heretical groups that exist nowadays.

Probably the best description of the Trinity is found in the writings of Philo of Alexandria. Philo's writing use the same language to describe God as is found in the writings of the apostles John and Paul, though there is no known connection between Philo and any of the apostles. Philo has it that God exists as God the Father and His two powers. Through one power He creates and sustains, and through the other power He reigns. Philo goes on the say that to the uninitiated mind God appears to be three, but to the initiated mind He is one. The icon of God is the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant. The cherubim of either side are God's two powers, and when God rests on the mercy seat the three are seen. Even though it appears as three, those three are in fact one.

It's sometimes hard to describe without using the term parts. We don't say parts because it reduces God to the sum of His parts and is considered improper. It's sometimes easier to imagine a man with two arms. At what point do the arms end and at what point does the man begin. Looking at a man with two arms we describe him as a man. Looking at God the Father and His two powers we describe Him as God.

 

[DamianWarS]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

I can't explain the Trinity but I can explain the necessity of the Trinity.

God has no limits and is lacking in nothing (otherwise he wouldn't be God) he did not create creation because he was lonely which means before creation God would need the ability to have contrasted relationship and love. The minimal amount of relationships for that to happen is 3. If it's just 1in1 no relationship can happen. 2in1 relation can happen but it's not contrasted so love is imperfect since Person A may have a corrupt form of love to Person B but how is person B supposed to know because there is nothing else to contrast the relationship to know any better. So in order for perfect love to happen 3in1 is needed. A to B, A to C and a completely contrasted relationship of B to C plus a joint relationship of A, B and C. Only in 3 is love perfectly contrasted which is why 3 is needed.

 

[eleos1954]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

None of them are avatars

Definition of avatar
1 : an electronic image that represents and may be manipulated by a computer user

The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an impersonal force. ... The Father, Son, and Spirit are equally self-existent. They are in complete harmony and in perfect agreement with one another.

 

[SimonPeter111]

so mysterious

 

[Joined2krist]

.

 

[trophy33]

.

 

[St_Worm2]

Every time someone asks about the Trinity, this cute video is posted. It ends with the bottomline being that "The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but is understood only through faith and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian creed."
This basically means, "Shut up and parrot the Athanasian Creed without trying to understand it." Is this really what Christianity in the view of the video-maker is about: becoming like parrots?

Hi Andrewn, it was very helpful to me when I finally began to understand that the Trinity/Godhead is a Biblical "mystery", IOW, something that is true (on the one hand, and that we hold as being true because of the Source of the teaching) but that cannot be fully comprehended by us (on the other hand, at least not for now anyway).

Further, while Trinity "analogies" can be useful for those who are first looking into the doctrine of the Trinity/trying to make heads or tails of the nature of the Godhead, I believe that it is also important to tell people that, while various analogies can be helpful, all of them fall short/have their limitations, because all of them teach heresy, to one degree or another, about the Godhead (I also thought the video might be a fun/useful thing to add into the mix because of the questions that were asked in the OP).

I understand what you are saying about the abrupt ending of the video, IOW, to forget the analogies altogether and to remember the words of the creed instead, but what it is really saying is to forget the analogies altogether and to remember the words of the Bible instead (our historic creeds, as you know, lay out what the Bible teaches for us, but in a very organized/concise/summary manner, so that we don't have to spend hours, days, weeks or months studying it just to end up coming to the same conclusions ).

The other advantage here is that the ENTIRETY of the churches that fall within the pale of Christian orthodoxy have confirmed/continue to confirm what the creeds teach us as ONE, be they RCC, EOC, OOC, Protestant, Baptist, etc., so we can have confidence that these summaries of "what we believe" can be counted on as teaching us the very same thing that the Bible does

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - question, do you have a problem with some part(s)/something that is said in the video quote that you posited for us, "The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but is understood only through faith and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian creed"? If so, which part/parts are they? Or is it just an uneasiness with the statement as a whole because it makes it seem like we shouldn't even bother trying to comprehend the nature of the Godhead? Thanks

 

[Andrewn]

p.s. - question, do you have a problem with some part(s)/something that is said in the video quote that you posited for us, "The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but is understood only through faith and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian creed"? If so, which part/parts are they? Or is it just an uneasiness with the statement as a whole because it makes it seem like we shouldn't even bother trying to comprehend the nature of the Godhead? Thanks

It is the second choice, "uneasiness with the statement as a whole because it makes it seem like we shouldn't even bother trying to comprehend the nature of the Godhead." I do not have a problem with the pseudo-Athanasian Creed, although I prefer the Nicene Creed.

God is indeed a mystery. But He has revealed certain aspects about himself. Otherwise we would not even know that He is a Trinity. We would not even know that He is a person. Without revelation/communication/information from God, we might as well worship the atom that started the Big Bang or the Brahman who encompasses the universe.

But, praise God for choosing to reveal aspects about himself. Our Church Fathers did a great job summarizing these in Creeds. I suspect they wanted us to understand the Creeds rather than recite them absent-mindedly.

I agree with the first part of the video, which shows that analogies cannot represent the real thing. But I wish the ending encouraged further study rather than a "mind your own business" attitude.

I know many Christians who would not discuss any subject, let alone the Trinity. They are mostly old people. Perhaps the current ending is suitable for them. But is it really suitable for a scientific inquisitive mind? Or would it just turn away any skeptical?

 

[The Liturgist]

Is Trinity a Super Council of the father, Holy Spirit and Jesus?Or is it the Holy Spirit, that Jesus and the Father are both avatars of God?

I think regarding avatars our new friend @eleos1954 provided a very nice answer:

None of them are avatars

Definition of avatar
1 : an electronic image that represents and may be manipulated by a computer user

The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an impersonal force. ... The Father, Son, and Spirit are equally self-existent. They are in complete harmony and in perfect agreement with one another.

This is correct, and I really love how you are engaging in the theology of the early Church.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Trinity is neither a council nor an avatar. You'll find those beliefs among some heretical groups that exist nowadays.

Probably the best description of the Trinity is found in the writings of Philo of Alexandria. Philo's writing use the same language to describe God as is found in the writings of the apostles John and Paul, though there is no known connection between Philo and any of the apostles. Philo has it that God exists as God the Father and His two powers. Through one power He creates and sustains, and through the other power He reigns. Philo goes on the say that to the uninitiated mind God appears to be three, but to the initiated mind He is one. The icon of God is the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant. The cherubim of either side are God's two powers, and when God rests on the mercy seat the three are seen. Even though it appears as three, those three are in fact one.

It's sometimes hard to describe without using the term parts. We don't say parts because it reduces God to the sum of His parts and is considered improper. It's sometimes easier to imagine a man with two arms. At what point do the arms end and at what point does the man begin. Looking at a man with two arms we describe him as a man. Looking at God the Father and His two powers we describe Him as God.

Indeed, I agree entirely with this perspective, literally every word. Everyone in this thread should read this post by @HTacianas carefully, as it represents the apex of understanding of Patristic theology.

 

[The Liturgist]

Every time someone asks about the Trinity, this cute video is posted. It ends with the bottomline being that "The Trinity is a mystery which cannot be comprehended by human reason but is understood only through faith
and is best confessed in the words of the Athanasian creed."

This basically means, "Shut up and parrot the Athanasian Creed without trying to understand it." Is this really what Christianity in the view of the video-maker is about: becoming like parrots?

I agree. That video was funny a few years ago, but the doctrines of the psuedo-Athanasian creed Quincunque Vult, which as you doubtless know was not the creed of St. Athanasius the Great, who dedicated his life to defend the doctrine of the Council of Nicaea as expressed in the Nicene Creed, actually exists in two versions, by the way, the version we commonly find, for example, in many editions of the Book of Common Prayer, and another version which the Eastern Orthodox include as an appendix in their Psalters and some liturgical books (even though it is not used liturgically).