How to tell if a parish is canonical?

[AMM]

So I'm aware of the assemblyofbishops.org website which has a list of canonical parishes, monasteries, etc. But where I go to school (Fairfax, VA, zip code 22030) there is a ROCA church, Holy Ascension (Holy Ascension Orthodox Church, ROCA). However, this is not listed on the Assembly of Bishops website. Does that mean this church is "illegitimate" or something like that? It's definitely my closest parish so if I convert it'd be the easiest and closest to attend. (And I've heard somewhere before that Orthodox are encouraged to go to their closest parish rather than "church shopping" for a parish you enjoy.)

 

[AMM]

Additionally, if I just do a google search for ROCOR, I'm taken to synod.com, but the Holy Ascension Church links me to Синод РПЦЗ

The lists of bishops and parishes don't align between these two sources. So I guess that makes me wonder as part of this question, are ROCOR and ROCA different? Is ROCOR/ROCA uncanonical?

Should I just visit the closest parish listed on assemplyofbishops.org or is this church fine too?

Consider me confused.

 

[Glaucus]

Excellent question. I'm considering exploring Orthodoxy. The closest parish to me (still a whopping 45-50 minutes away ) has an odd description. It says it was assembled from a small community of believers and is a mission parish. So I've wondered if it's legitimate.

 

[archer75]

If I'm not mistaken, the people currently known as ROCA are in schism.

edit: ROCOR is in communion with canonical Orthodoxy.

Yes?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hopefully someone who knows for sure will chime in.

"Newly formed ROCA" sounds concerning. ROCOR I know (and they are canonical). ROCA I've heard of, but not from within the Church. And not being found on the Assembly of Bishops site is a HUGE red flag - you're right. I've seen them slow to remove defunct missions, but even newly established ones seem to be there.

I think it's almost certainly schismatic. But it's best for you to hear it from someone who does know for sure.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with choosing a parish based on some thing that help you fit in and function well there. I think it all depends on what factors you are looking for when deciding to go a bit further. Many reasons are perfectly legitimate - a welcoming community, language issues, whether the parish schedules things conveniently for you (we have two local parishes - one schedules almost everything in the morning for the sake of many elderly parishioners who don't drive at night, while the other schedules more in the evenings for the sake of working parishioners). These are all reasonable things to consider. I'm sure there are some things that would represent poorer reasons? But I am guessing that overall the idea might have been to discourage "Church shopping" as is popular among many Protestants.

 

[gzt]

Yeah, that's not a canonical parish. The discrepancy between official actually Orthodox sources and what they align with makes it clear. Go for the closest parish on the assemblyofbishops site.

Even not knowing the history of ROCA (which I do), the narrative on the parish site strongly suggests that the parish was formed as a breakaway from ROCOR in response to their reunion with Moscow in 2007. This is who they are: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad - Provisional Supreme Church Authority - OrthodoxWiki

 

[Platina]

Holy Ascension Church is non-canonical. It can be confusing, because the canonical Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, is also sometimes known as the Russian Church Abroad, but then there are also schismatic groups using these names too. But the website that Holy Ascension links to you is definitely not the canonical ROCOR.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I believe ROCA is the portion of ROCOR that did not re-unite with the Russian Orthodox Church/MP and so are now separated. I’m not sure how that affects their canonicity. Wasn’t ROCOR considered canonical even while separated from the ROC?

 

[Glaucus]

Side note to the thread: The parish I was unsure about is an official OCA parish according to the Assembly of Bishops website.

 

[gzt]

I believe ROCA is the portion of ROCOR that did not re-unite with the Russian Orthodox Church/MP and so are now separated. I’m not sure how that affects their canonicity. Wasn’t ROCOR considered canonical even while separated from the ROC?

Their status was kind of complicated before reunion. However, here's the deal once reunion happened: the ones who didn't reunite with the MP weren't like left behind and just standing still while everybody else moved over to MP, they had to break with their synod to do it, ie, commit schism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Excellent question. I'm considering exploring Orthodoxy. The closest parish to me (still a whopping 45-50 minutes away ) has an odd description. It says it was assembled from a small community of believers and is a mission parish. So I've wondered if it's legitimate.

Side note to the thread: The parish I was unsure about is an official OCA parish according to the Assembly of Bishops website.

Glad to hear it.

A mission parish assembled from a small community of believers is something that happens, and no need to be worried if they are in communion otherwise.

The only thing I would caution is that if they are all converts - especially recent converts (recent probably being anything less than 10 years at least) ... just make sure you're not all insulated from more experienced voices. But hopefully just by virtue of having a priest visit regularly things will stay steady.


(Forgive me, but the zeal of new converts is always best tempered by more experienced among the faithful.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Side note to the thread: The parish I was unsure about is an official OCA parish according to the Assembly of Bishops website.

good! as a general rule of thumb, aside from what is listed on the Assembly of Bishops page, if the jurisdiction is an alphabet soup, it's in schism (aside from ROCOR or the OCA).

 

[archer75]

Adding to the confusion is that some older sources call what is now ROCOR "ROCA".

I had brief contact with a ROCA priest at rhe veeerry beginning of my interest in the OC. He was perfectly nice without being too nice. Still, to my knowledge, it's best to stick with a canonical parish, for a host of reasons.

 

[AMM]

By the way, there's nothing wrong with choosing a parish based on some thing that help you fit in and function well there. I think it all depends on what factors you are looking for when deciding to go a bit further. Many reasons are perfectly legitimate - a welcoming community, language issues, whether the parish schedules things conveniently for you (we have two local parishes - one schedules almost everything in the morning for the sake of many elderly parishioners who don't drive at night, while the other schedules more in the evenings for the sake of working parishioners). These are all reasonable things to consider. I'm sure there are some things that would represent poorer reasons? But I am guessing that overall the idea might have been to discourage "Church shopping" as is popular among many Protestants.

Ah okay, thanks! This does help. The closest to me are each about 20-30 minutes away (in opposite directions). One is Antiochian, the other is OCA (I think). Language might push me to OCA, but we'll see. Checking service schedules is also smart!

Yeah, that's not a canonical parish. The discrepancy between official actually Orthodox sources and what they align with makes it clear. Go for the closest parish on the assemblyofbishops site.

Even not knowing the history of ROCA (which I do), the narrative on the parish site strongly suggests that the parish was formed as a breakaway from ROCOR in response to their reunion with Moscow in 2007. This is who they are: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad - Provisional Supreme Church Authority - OrthodoxWiki

Thanks for the help, that's interesting.

Holy Ascension Church is non-canonical. It can be confusing, because the canonical Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, is also sometimes known as the Russian Church Abroad, but then there are also schismatic groups using these names too. But the website that Holy Ascension links to you is definitely not the canonical ROCOR.

Yeah, that's what really threw me off -- wikipedia said ROCA and ROCOR were the same. Thanks for clarifying though.

good! as a general rule of thumb, aside from what is listed on the Assembly of Bishops page, if the jurisdiction is an alphabet soup, it's in schism (aside from ROCOR or the OCA).

Thanks, so the Assembly of Bishops page should in theory have all the canonical parishes listed?

Adding to the confusion is that some older sources call what is now ROCOR "ROCA".

I had brief contact with a ROCA priest at rhe veeerry beginning of my interest in the OC. He was perfectly nice without being too nice. Still, to my knowledge, it's best to stick with a canonical parish, for a host of reasons.

Going off of this (and anyone can answer, ofc), what exactly does it mean to be canonical? I.e., why does it matter? What happens if a parish is noncanonical? From my background as a Lutheran, we teach to look for the church in the local parish -- i.e. it's less important which overarching governing structure the congregation is a member of, and more important that "the sacraments are rightly administered and the gospel is rightly preached" (of course, that's not to say our synods are unimportant, or what synod says doesn't matter, I'm not saying that. I'm also not trying to say "ah ha Lutherans are correct, show me where you stand relative to us or you're a heretic!")

Just unsure what exactly it means or why it matters; ecclesiology is probably my weakest area of theology

 

[gzt]

The term canonical gets thrown around a bit much and it kind of obscures what it really means - you can roughly think of it like this: they are either in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy or they are not. You want to be in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy! And it's not like we're talking about a 50-50 split or a 75-25 split or even a 90=10 split here, it's more like a 99-1 split (at least in terms of Orthodox around the world). When a group is not in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, the reason for that is important! It's a big deal to break off. And because it's a big deal, that usually means they've got something weird going on.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, the Assembly page should have all parishes.

 

[buzuxi02]

ROCA or ROCOR wont tell you much. Plenty of parishes that never went with ROCOR in the MP unuon still officially are called ROCOR. They usually will have a letter next to ROCOR to identify the bishop they are under. Rocor-A for example.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I haven't met very many schismatics, but a few. What I have found most commonly is an uncharitable spirit that seems to have led to the "I'm Orthodox and almost no one else is" mindset. As you might imagine, many discussions will devolve into unkindness and criticism quickly. I think there is often a certain kind of spirit or mindset that goes with it, and it becomes recognizeable when any of the issues are brought up.

But my experience is really fairly limited.

 

[Principal Moo]

So I'm aware of the assemblyofbishops.org website which has a list of canonical parishes, monasteries, etc. But where I go to school (Fairfax, VA, zip code 22030) there is a ROCA church, Holy Ascension (Holy Ascension Orthodox Church, ROCA). However, this is not listed on the Assembly of Bishops website. Does that mean this church is "illegitimate" or something like that? It's definitely my closest parish so if I convert it'd be the easiest and closest to attend. (And I've heard somewhere before that Orthodox are encouraged to go to their closest parish rather than "church shopping" for a parish you enjoy.)

It seems like you have received some good answers, but in the future, you could ask any parish if you have any questions. I think that any parish would either quickly say "Yes, we are officially in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople" or "Well, here's the thing..."

Also, are you going to George Mason? If so, have you tried talking to people in the university's religious department? I lived near Fairfax and when I was still Roman Catholic, I would often visit the priest there for confession (if it was during the day). I remember the university had several clergy from different religions there. I'm sure they could help you as well.

 

[AMM]

It seems like you have received some good answers, but in the future, you could ask any parish if you have any questions. I think that any parish would either quickly say "Yes, we are officially in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople" or "Well, here's the thing..."

Also, are you going to George Mason? If so, have you tried talking to people in the university's religious department? I lived near Fairfax and when I was still Roman Catholic, I would often visit the priest there for confession (if it was during the day). I remember the university had several clergy from different religions there. I'm sure they could help you as well.

Yeah, but as an introvert, talking to people on the internet is way easier than meeting with a priest in person

I do go to George Mason! I'm a religious studies minor, so I probably should go swing by the religion department sometime and talk to them. I've spoken with the Roman Catholic priest on a number of occasions (Fr Peter Nassetta is super friendly and got to know me really well, even though I never expressed interest in converting to RCC ); I know there's a lot of clergy associated with them and I believe that there is an Orthodox Christian Fellowship group on campus that they have listed on their website. Perhaps a visit is in order for this coming semester...