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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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YahuahSaves

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But why would God not want unbelievers to 'see the light of the gospel' if that might make them believers?
It's not God not wanting to. It's human  choice that determines if we believe the Gospel or not.

Try reading Matthew 13 the parable of the farmer scattering seed. What you hear and understand of the Gospel determines what you believe, and how much faith can grow from whatever seed is planted.
 
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Lost Witness

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You're advocating exclusion/rejection on the basis of suspected heresy are you not?
Be honest and call a spade a spade, eh?
No, what I'm saying is the "house is burning down",
Best to correct someone whos in err than to let them remain in it
 
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SelfSim

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Can you put that in a short sentence and actually tell me what the difference is between belief in God and perceived gender identity that opposes the gender a person was born?
Choice.
Do you understand a believer has their identity in Christ? That means the individual perceptual identity that was moulded and shaped by the world is replaced by our true identity given by God.
.. by choice .. (but one has to first distinguish the belief there, before one can realise the choice).
How is gender orientation not relevant to self-identity?
It is .. (and that's not what I said there).
 
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YahuahSaves

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If you had bothered to quote the entire sentence instead of deceptively quoting mining what I said, you would have seen that I said, "You could have easily changed my mind by providing evidence to back up your claim."
I didn't "deceptively" do anything. I pointed out the fact that I obviously can not easily change your mind as this entire conversation has proven.

Hence, why I said this:
Do my recent posts get you to question your ideologies on gender theory?

I was pointing out how contradictory your own ideologies actually are, considering the conversation thus far. You can believe a person's gender identity that's contrary to what they were born as believable based on one study of 30 people, that notes evidence may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain. So I refer you to my post #3,398 to point you to a possible reason for the anomaly: How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

You completely ignore that, and consider the testimony video of real ex-transgender people to be irrelevant, even though you aren't yourself a transgender person. Do you see your own biases? You tell me early on my revelation from God was just a "feeling" and therefore a "belief", but you take a transgenders "feeling" of knowing within themselves what gender they are is not just a belief?

I asked you what do we humans do to address sin (sin= putting our human will before God's will) and heal people on a level no one can and your response was to "let people be themselves". The problem with people making up their own "truth" instead of looking to Gods truth (talking of morality and righteousness here, not creationism), is we have the breakdown of our society and everyone deciding for themselves what is good for them and not what is good for society as a whole.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Choice.

.. by choice .. (but one has to first distinguish the belief there, before one can realise the choice).

It is .. (and that's not what I said there).
OK still not clear. You're being evasive.
Do you agree or disagree that gender identity stems from belief that results in a choice? If not, why not?
 
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SelfSim

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OK still not clear. You're being evasive.
Do you agree or disagree that gender identity stems from belief that results in a choice? If not, why not?
I would say that there are several ideas about formation of gender identity, somewhere during very early childhood, which do not suggest that it forms by way of belief. (There is some weak evidence supporting such notions).

I don't see how the formation of gender identity during that early stage of development, fits (for the purposes of practical usefulness), with an operational definition of a belief, (followed by a choice).

Belief in God, however, is demonstrably a choice, based on that same workable definition of a belief.
Such a definition is: 'A belief is any notion held as being true out of preference, that does not follow from objective tests, and is not beholden to the rules of logic' (both conditions are necessary).
 
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YahuahSaves

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I would say that there are several ideas about formation of gender identity, somewhere during very early childhood, which do not suggest that it forms by way of belief. (There is some weak evidence supporting such notions).
Really? Refer back to #3,130 (my post you missed). Watch parts 1 and 2 and then come back and tell me that.

Plenty of evidence in psychology that confirms beliefs formed in childhood around identity come from the direct interaction of the environment (Caregivers/siblings/peers) and perceptual ideas in relation to how someone sees themselves as a result (which creates a belief-system).

I don't see how the formation of gender identity during that early stage of development, fits (for the purposes of practical usefulness), with an operational definition of a belief, (followed by a choice).
So a child who has it impressed on them at a young age that they would be more preferable or loved as the opposite gender, can not grow up holding that belief themselves and therefore that belief dictating the choices they make later in life?

Such a definition is: 'A belief is any notion held as being true out of preference, that does not follow from objective tests, and is not beholden to the rules of logic' (both conditions are necessary).
How is a belief that you're the opposite gender of what you actually are (or non-binary for that matter), "beholden to the rules of logic"? Your comments are contradictory, and are contrary to objective reality and so by the scientific method that you yourself want used in "proving God", you yourself use your subjective reality to prove gender identity. Completely biased and unscientific approach. Forget logic, what ever happened to  reason?
 
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Hans Blaster

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ever known anyone to get themselves out of a blazing fire who wasn't a firefighter?

People get themselves out of big fires all the time. But that has nothing to do with scientific proof for god.
 
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SelfSim

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Really? Refer back to #3,130 (my post you missed). Watch parts 1 and 2 and then come back and tell me that.
I will watch as much as I have time for and can stomach! (Ie: why is the discussion announced as being unsuitable for children?)

I notice one of the interviewees initially distinguishes different phases of life .. which is important in order to communicate more clearly on the matter. You'll notice in my last response I was distinguishing ideas about what might be happening in the very early stages of life. That stage would be around the time a child starts to communicate. I think this corresponds with Gender Dysphoria and not so much with the Transgender phase. So in my last post, I was focusing on human formation of 'Gender Identity', (because you referred to 'Gender Identity'), and so I was answering your question from the Dysphoria perspective.
Plenty of evidence in psychology that confirms beliefs formed in childhood around identity come from the direct interaction of the environment (Caregivers/siblings/peers) and perceptual ideas in relation to how someone sees themselves as a result (which creates a belief-system).
Evidence doesn't 'confirm' anything in science .. let's get that straight, eh?
Child sexual abuse and a child's reactionary response to that, is discussed in your video there.
That isn't what I was talking about, thus far.
So a child who has it impressed on them at a young age that they would be more preferable or loved as the opposite gender, can not grow up holding that belief themselves and therefore that belief dictating the choices they make later in life?
A bit like the belief in God then, yes? (I'd concur with that).
Ie: its likely someone else's belief .. which clearly is transmissable via language/emotional abuse/actions etc.
'God' is concept that I would not have had even a clue about until I had conversations about it, as I grew up.
How is a belief that you're the opposite gender of what you actually are (or non-binary for that matter), "beholden to the rules of logic"?
Formation of Gender Dysphoria has nothing to do with logic.
Later in life, beliefs like believing in godly miracles etc, certainly arise.
The operational definition I gave, works well for distinguishing beliefs during those more mature phases (ie: covering the bulk of our lives).
Your comments are contradictory, and are contrary to objective reality and so by the scientific method that you yourself want used in "proving God", you yourself use your subjective reality to prove gender identity. Completely biased and unscientific approach. Forget logic, what ever happened to  reason?
I would point out that you have not clearly articulated what you mean by 'objective reality'. I thus don't have any basis for relating with your perception of 'contradiction' or 'contrary' there.
I most certainly, do not 'want to use the scientific method to prove God', for goodness sake! :rolleyes:
I made no attempts to 'prove' gender identity. :rolleyes:
The last two statements you make above, demonstrate your premature judgement about concepts you don't yet understand.
Those concepts are primarily focused around a workable, highly consistent, philosophy of science.
 
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YahuahSaves

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(Ie: why is the discussion announced as being unsuitable for children?)
Because it talks about abuse. Why? Are you a child? If not, then it's not a concern unless you don't like hearing about the sad realities of life.

I think this corresponds with Gender Dysphoria and not so much with the Transgender phase.
How're they different? Because the movement has pushed for a different definition to be applied to them doesn't mean that it is.

So in my last post, I was focusing on human formation of 'Gender Identity', (because you referred to 'Gender Identity'),
I was talking about the "gender identity" issue in the transgender movement.

Evidence doesn't 'confirm' anything in science .. let's get that straight, eh?
I know that and is why this thread title is counter-productive.

I would point out that you have not clearly articulated what you mean by 'objective reality'. I thus don't have any basis for relating with your perception of 'contradiction' or 'contrary' there.
Well everyone keeps saying on this thread the evidence that something is "real" has to be "objective". Everyone agreeing that it's real right? You are trying to deflect from what you've previously said.

I most certainly, do not 'want to use the scientific method to prove God', for goodness sake!
Then why are you on this thread?
 
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SelfSim

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I was talking about the "gender identity" issue in the transgender movement.
Ok. thanks for the clarification
Well everyone keeps saying on this thread the evidence that something is "real" has to be "objective". Everyone agreeing that it's real right? You are trying to deflect from what you've previously said.
No I'm not. Objective is defined by the method used by scientifically thinking minds .. Many other people don't use the term that way and it leads to inconsistencies.
Then why are you on this thread?
At the moment, I am conversing with yourself but I have been involved in this thread, on and off, from the outset.
You've raised some challenging questions which provide an opportunity for exploring issues confronting science.

Why are you on it?
 
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YahuahSaves

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You've raised some challenging questions which provide an opportunity for exploring issues confronting science.
Glad I challenged someone to think about the issues confronting science, because there are a few.. particularly when proving the existence of God objectively (which is theoretically impossible btw).

Why are you on it?
Because my response to the OP apparently wasn't "good enough" and was challenged. But, considering the question involved in the context of her post "how to witness to non-believers who need proof" - I felt I had a right to respond to her as a fellow believer.

How about you? Can you answer the OP's question? (How to witness to a non-believer who needs evidence for God)? That's certainly a challenging question to answer isn't it?
 
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AV1611VET

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Well, Kylie, however much I'd like to have a solid, more sensible, more academic level conversation with you, I just get the sense that you're not interested.
Some people run things into the ground and don't know when to quit.

They ask good questions, get good answers, and still don't give up.

Eventually everything gets reduced to a train wreck.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why would that be? Wouldn't the Isrealites still need an origin myth after exile?
Why would the Israelites need a myth?

It's believing in myths that got them exiled in the first place.
 
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Astrid

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It takes time to "back things up." And I didn't say your post was subterfuge. I said that there were other forms of subjective opinions and the ones I listed were illegitimate forms. There are legitimate forms too

As to the point you were making about subjective opinion on the whole, the only thing I said about your progression of thought in that post is that it fails as a deduction. That's all I meant by that. I wasn't trying to allude that subterfuge or sabotage was what you were doing, or are doing.

I'm assuming that your presence on CF is to challenge various Christians because you're actually wanting to know if Christianity has any chance of being true. I have to give you this benefit of the doubt and assume you're being transparent to some extent about this because I couldn't imagine it being otherwise.
Some things in Christianity are true.
Opinion and evidence vary on how much of what.

Trying to work it out is difficult.

t
 
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2PhiloVoid

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the bible is 100% truth,
Anything else and it's calling GOD a Liar,
Such a Person doesn't know GOD.

Being a Christian and making such a statement is done in err and should be repented of and turned away from

Was this directed at me, J Mick? Since you didn't use the quote function to specify to whom you're intending your response, I can't tell. It just looks like a post and unless I had been reviewing this page and accidentally come across it, I would have never seen it.

TWO THINGS FOR YOU TO PONDER:

1) You don't get to tell ME "how" I have to do "Christianity." Not unless you have some MIGHTY, MIGHTY Hermeneutical and Historical wisdom and knowledge you're going to throw at me. And most Christians don't have that!

2) The academic world has moved on and fundamentalist Christians are floundering in the dark, unable to address the issues that are now here and have been already presented by the world for some time in opposition to the Bible. Simply taking the stance of "The Bible says it, and I believe it!" is not only naive, it shows a lack of sensibility and awareness for the world we're actually in today.

And, what's more, however much Christians may protest----and by golly they love to protest---- we don't actually get to "do Christianity" in a bubble. We can pretend like we do, though...

TIME TO WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER, FELLOW CHRISTIANS!
 
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Astrid

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the bible is 100% truth,
Anything else and it's calling GOD a Liar,
Such a Person doesn't know GOD.

Being a Christian and making such a statement is done in err and should be repented of and turned away from
So Pi really is 3.0
 
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