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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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SelfSim

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A scale error? You mean like how a difference of one part in a thousand can rapidly lead to very large changes?
Most common descriptions about the takeaways of what the "butterfly effect" is telling us, are themselves described in terms that automatically assume that determinism is true, and that this then breaks down in practice, solely because of the impossibility of specifying the initial data accurately enough. This claim is everywhere.

What we do not see however, is a recognition that no real-world application deals in, or even attributes meaning to, the concept of 'complete information' of the initial state. As soon as one recognizes that information is by its nature, an interval of uncertainty, then one recognizes that real-world chaos applications are about what happens to intervals, not about what happens to points (or initial datapoints). And what happens to intervals is that they map into statistical tendencies. In the presence of chaos, those statististical tendencies evolve through three temporal domains:

i) an early domain where the entire (initially small) interval behaves the same way and is essentially the same behavior;
ii) an intermediate domain where the interval breaks up into regions of clearly different statistical behavior, which one might attempt to manipulate to increase the chances of a desired outcome, by making small controlled perturbations within that initial interval which can be resolved into these statistically different behaviors;
iii) a long-term domain where the entire interval results in essentially identical behavior, which can only be modeled as completely random over that interval.

Making the initial interval smaller (reducing the "uncertainty" in the initial data), only changes the durations of these intervals, not their basic nature, and even their durations is only changed a small amount, even with huge reductions in initial uncertainty. In particular, if phase (ii) evolves into phase (iii) before the scale of some initial perturbation can grow, (via its Lyapunov exponent), into the large-scale difference of interest (like tornadoes), then language like the perturbation 'changing the outcome', is nonsense.

Many descriptions of 'the butterfly effect' are clearly completely missing the point of this effect. The problem is not that the initial data is 'insufficiently precise', because even if you improve it a millionfold, the long-term behavior is still random, with identical tendencies, and thus unaffected by small perturbations within that interval.

So exactly when did the powerlessness of a butterfly to affect long-term weather patterns turn into the powerfulness of butterflies to affect long-term weather patterns? (This is the scale error I'm referring to). It happened when a mistake was made, and now that mistake is so widespread it is almost impossible to correct it.
 
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Michael

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However, it seems that what you are referring to by "science" is the scientific community, or scientists, or something other than mere science. True scientific pursuit (which none of has since we are all biased and presumptive in spite of our best efforts) is only mere science. It doesn't care about consensus nor opinion.

In theory science itself isn't concerned with consensus or opinion, but in real world applications involving actual human beings, "scientists" used consensus of "opinion" to decide what is considered to be "good science", vs. "bad science" all the time. There's certainly a political process involved in "scientific communities".
 
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Mark Quayle

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In theory science itself isn't concerned with consensus or opinion, but in real world applications involving actual human beings, "scientists" used consensus of "opinion" to decide what is considered to be "good science", vs. "bad science" all the time. There's certainly a political process involved in "scientific communities".
Agreed. Thank you.
 
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Lazarus Long

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Nobody is arguing for predestination. The point is, if God knows our future, that knowledge does not dispel our freewill
Of course it does because I cannot choose a path that this all knowing god (ruler of all that is) says I can't.
 
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Kylie

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The butterfly motion is only one of billions of motions leading to the hurricane. You would be at a loss to show that the lack of the strokes of its wings would make a large difference in the hurricane's actions or effects.

Quite possibly. But the point remains that a single small change can lead to drastic differences at a later time. That small change being the flapping of butterfly wings is a perfectly plausible example of such a small change.
 
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Kylie

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Nobody is arguing for predestination. The point is, if God knows our future, that knowledge does not dispel our freewill

*sigh*

Once again, if God knows our future, we do not have the ability to do something different. We are predestined to do what God knows we will do. Therefore, predestination, and no free will.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you to understand.
 
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Ken-1122

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*sigh*

Once again, if God knows our future, we do not have the ability to do something different. We are predestined to do what God knows we will do. Therefore, predestination, and no free will.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you to understand.
If God simply knows our future and doesn't do anything to cause the Butterfly effect, to simply have knowledge does not dispel freewill.
 
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Kylie

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If God simply knows our future and doesn't do anything to cause the Butterfly effect, to simply have knowledge does not dispel freewill.

Yes it does if his knowledge can't be wrong. As soon as he knows what we will do, we are utterly incapable of doing anything else. Our actions are set in stone.
 
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Ken-1122

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Yes it does if his knowledge can't be wrong. As soon as he knows what we will do, we are utterly incapable of doing anything else. Our actions are set in stone.
I disagree; it just means he knows what our free will choice will be. Just like with my friend and the ice cream.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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I disagree; it just means he knows what our free will choice will be. Just like with my friend and the ice cream.
Your inability to understand probability does not make your icecream story a good argument. Was there a possibility, no matter how small, of your friend choosing something other than vanilla? Yes. Your claim of absolute knowledge of the outcome is, as I already explained, erroneous. With the example @Kylie is using there is no possibility of any other choice. They are 2 very different situations - one leaves room for choice and the future is uncertain, the other leaves no room for choice and the future is set in stone.
 
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Kylie

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I disagree; it just means he knows what our free will choice will be. Just like with my friend and the ice cream.

No, not just like your friend with the ice cream.

You've admitted you could have been wrong with your friend's ice cream choice.

God is completely incapable of being wrong.

You don't know for a fact, you are not 100% certain. God is. Big difference.
 
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Ken-1122

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No, not just like your friend with the ice cream.

You've admitted you could have been wrong with your friend's ice cream choice.

God is completely incapable of being wrong.

You don't know for a fact, you are not 100% certain. God is. Big difference.
God is incapable of being wrong? Okay; in order for God to be incapable of being wrong, I think he would have to take away our freewill and have us live by a script of his design; which would mean as you said we wouldn't have free will
 
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Kylie

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God is incapable of being wrong? Okay; in order for God to be incapable of being wrong, I think he would have to take away our freewill and have us live by a script of his design; which would mean as you said we wouldn't have free will

Glad we agree on that.

You seem surprised by the concept. Most god concepts include all-knowing, as far as I am aware. Certainly the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god concepts do. All knowing would tend to include not being wrong, since all-knowing would include knowing about the future.
 
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Ken-1122

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Glad we agree on that.

You seem surprised by the concept. Most god concepts include all-knowing, as far as I am aware. Certainly the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god concepts do. All knowing would tend to include not being wrong, since all-knowing would include knowing about the future.
Back in my Christian days, I was under the impression that God could do anything; even sin, or wrong, but he just chose not to.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Back in my Christian days, I was under the impression that God could do anything; even sin, or wrong, but he just chose not to.
There's another word with more than one meaning - wrong. As used by Kylie (in conjunction with the verb to be) it means "mistaken, incorrect". As used by you (in conjunction with the verb to do) it means "immoral".
 
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Ken-1122

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There's another word with more than one meaning - wrong. As used by Kylie (in conjunction with the verb to be) it means "mistaken, incorrect". As used by you (in conjunction with the verb to do) it means "immoral".
True! And if you look up that word in the dictionary, you will see it includes both of those ways it is used.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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True! And if you look up that word in the dictionary, you will see it includes both of those ways it is used.
That's pretty much what I said, so no idea what point you're trying to make. Is it just a way to avoid acknowledging that your equivocation is another complete failure of an argument?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Quite possibly. But the point remains that a single small change can lead to drastic differences at a later time. That small change being the flapping of butterfly wings is a perfectly plausible example of such a small change.
I think it is more useful to employ less poetic language to describe the effect. The small change of the flapping of butterfly wings plays its small part in the causing of drastic differences at a later time.

I suppose there is a place, just like with looking at the action of a formula from a different aspect, for example, going from algebra to calculus, for employing the math to say the butterfly's motion has drastic results, there you are describing the "cone" of effect in which the butterfly's diminishing application of energy in any one radiant still has an effect.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Back in my Christian days, I was under the impression that God could do anything; even sin, or wrong, but he just chose not to.
Kylie seemed to me to be referring more to "being mistaken" rather than "doing wrong"; however I guess you could have too.

But if not, I wanted to point out what I think is a logically necessary thing about First Cause. If God (First Cause, or he is not God) does something, for example love, he does not do it because it is a good thing to love --no; love is what it is because God is love.

God is the definition of all virtues, I think, as a logical result of his being the cause of everything. (I have not fully developed this line yet, but I don't see the negative of this claim (i.e. that God is not the definition of anti-virtues, or "sin") as being a problem --I'm just not sure how to present it.)
 
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