How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

[Kylie]

I have no doubt it seems plain to you. Yet you only restate your view, not the facts.

"Open to me" is another vague phrase. The fact you only ever make the one choice each time shows that only it was "open to you", if I want to say so, vague as it is. Or I could say the opposite, since you obviously did have choice. You are saying nothing.

I expect that you would deny that you depend on mere chance since you would claim "open to you" does not mean that all choices were equal --that is, that all choices held equal attraction to you. You have admitted to cause, so how could a different choice have ever happened?

You want it more specific? Okay then.

For me to choose, the number of options must be greater than 1. Each of these options must have a non-zero probability.

So, if I am in a room with three doors, a true choice would look something like this:

Door A - 25%
Door B - 5%
Door C - 70%

In this case, I have a choice. I am more likely to pick some options over others, but each door does have a chance of being picked. When I make the choice, the probability of one door becomes 100% and the others drop to 0%.

If, when I enter the room, God knows what door I will pick, then the probability of me picking that door is at 100% already. Since the probability of the other doors has now fallen to 0%, then it is no longer a choice on my part. The number of options I have is no longer greater than 1, since they no longer have a non-zero probability.

Thus I am not making a choice.

Is that better?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So now he's not influencing, he's planning!

God plans for me to do X, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it! There goes my choice, huh?

If First Cause plans, First Cause causes. You will not be able to undo his plans, you cannot alter his causes (unless he causes you to, lol). (Lolol, even Satan is unable, and he has a lot more power than you do.)

What difference does it actually make, if all you see is options, and all you feel is influences, whether they are the result of him causing or not, you still choose. If you don't know which one is the only one that will happen, you get to choose which one!

 

[Kylie]

It certainly limits their "choices" and "guides" their decision making process.

But it doesn't lock them into one specific course of action, so it's not predestination, is it?

In *this* day and age, all that would be required to find out about an exchange student opportunity is to "hear" about the existence of exchange students in general (we had several them in our high school), and simply initiate a Google search. The impetus might be a relative that lives overseas, an opportunity and circumstance that could be "predetermined" in the first place.

Do you understand the concept of "analogy" at all?

 

[Kylie]

If First Cause plans, First Cause causes. You will not be able to undo his plans, you cannot alter his causes (unless he causes you to, lol). (Lolol, even Satan is unable, and he has a lot more power than you do.)

If it causes, then I'm not the one deciding, am I?

What difference does it actually make, if all you see is options, and all you feel is influences, whether they are the result of him causing or not, you still choose. If you don't know which one is the only one that will happen, you get to choose which one!

I may think I am making a choice, but I'm not actually making a choice.

There's a huge difference between a thing and the illusion of the thing. I am still being forced even if I don't realise it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You want it more specific? Okay then.

For me to choose, the number of options must be greater than 1. Each of these options must have a non-zero probability.

So, if I am in a room with three doors, a true choice would look something like this:

Door A - 25%
Door B - 5%
Door C - 70%

In this case, I have a choice. I am more likely to pick some options over others, but each door does have a chance of being picked. When I make the choice, the probability of one door becomes 100% and the others drop to 0%.

If, when I enter the room, God knows what door I will pick, then the probability of me picking that door is at 100% already. Since the probability of the other doors has now fallen to 0%, then it is no longer a choice on my part. The number of options I have is no longer greater than 1, since they no longer have a non-zero probability.

Thus I am not making a choice.

Is that better?

No. Sorry. No better. Well, you have better explained your thinking, yes, so at least that is something.

Ok, so your example: If God knows you will pick door B, you are right, it is a 100% probability you will choose that door. In fact, I say, since he has planned for you to pick door B, you will indeed choose that door. But since you didn't know that one of the other doors was the determined path, or whether door B was, you chose what you thought for the moment to be the best choice, for whatever reasons --door B. Ergo, you chose. The probability of choosing one of the other doors is irrelevant. YOU THOUGHT you could. (And indeed, if you had chosen one of the other doors, IT would have been the door God determined you would choose.) How things seem to you is how you have the choice.

If Mommy told me not to eat the chocolate in the pantry, and I chose to do it anyway, God knew I would --in fact, planned that I would-- and put in place all the influences that drove me to chose to do so; and so I chose. You may say that God chose for me to choose to do so, and that is true. Yet I still chose to do so, in total opposition to what my conscience told me not to do, in fact; I chose to rebel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If it causes, then I'm not the one deciding, am I?



I may think I am making a choice, but I'm not actually making a choice.

There's a huge difference between a thing and the illusion of the thing. I am still being forced even if I don't realise it.

Yes, you most definitely are deciding. If you think you are making a choice, you are making a choice. You choose between the options, whether you are operating ignorantly or under illusion. They are therefore options to you to choose from. Since you don't know which one God has set in place to happen, you choose, and you always choose the one he predetermined would happen.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why do I have to demonstrate something I have not claimed? You really are a long way out of your depth, aren't you? We are talking about your claims, so let's deal with those.


And now it appears that you do not grasp the difference between possibility and actuality. You're presenting nothing more than an argument for 100% predestination, but pretending it includes free will. Yet at every turn, you contradict yourself by claiming there is no free will but you do not understand that is what you are saying. It's amazing to watch such mental gymnastics.

You seem to have a closed mind. 100% predestination does not negate your choice. How is this not obvious? If First Cause determines that you would, by multiple influences or "causes", choose Door B, even though you consider Doors A and C, not only B, as options, you choose between them! Even if First Cause is inanimate this is true!

 

[Mark Quayle]

The fact you cannot see there is no difference between Henry Ford's "choice" of a single colour and God's "choice" of a single option says a lot about your grasp of a very simple concept.

Which of these is the odd one out:
1. Any colour you want as long as it's black.
2. Any fruit you want as long as it's apple.
3. Any number you want as long as it's 7.
4. Any decision you want as long as it's the decision I already made.

Let me answer that for you - it's number 4. They're all examples of exactly the same lack of choice, but you claim 4 is special because... well, I cannot explain why it is any different, and neither can you.

You say, "Which of these is the odd one out:
1. Any colour you want as long as it's black. *If you offer me more than black, I choose.*
2. Any fruit you want as long as it's apple. *If you offer me more than the apple, I choose.*
3. Any number you want as long as it's 7. *If I have more than #7 to choose from, I choose.*
4. Any decision you want as long as it's the decision I already made. *If you offer me more than the decision you arranged for me to make, I choose.*

As for any of these (none is the odd man out) if there are no other options offered, they are not choices. But, at least with #4, there are other options offered. And indeed, if I had chosen one of the other options, it would be the one that I was driven to choose.

This is true, again, even if it was inanimate First Cause that began the whole chain of events. No less so if First Cause is With Intent.

 

[Kylie]

Ok, so your example: If God knows you will pick door B, you are right, it is a 100% probability you will choose that door. In fact, I say, since he has planned for you to pick door B, you will indeed choose that door.

Nope!

If God has planned for me to choose that door, then I am NOT choosing it.

The instant God plans it, the probability of that door rises to 100% and the probability of all other doors falls to 0%. Since I no longer have multiple options, it ceases to be a choice. Remember, choices require several options, each with a non-zero probability. That condition is no longer being met, therefore it is no longer a choice on my part.

But since you didn't know that one of the other doors was the determined path, or whether door B was, you chose what you thought for the moment to be the best choice, for whatever reasons --door B. Ergo, you chose. The probability of choosing one of the other doors is irrelevant. YOU THOUGHT you could. (And indeed, if you had chosen one of the other doors, IT would have been the door God determined you would choose.) How things seem to you is how you have the choice.

No. Me thinking that it is a choice does not make it a choice.

If Mommy told me not to eat the chocolate in the pantry, and I chose to do it anyway, God knew I would --in fact, planned that I would-- and put in place all the influences that drove me to chose to do so; and so I chose. You may say that God chose for me to choose to do so, and that is true. Yet I still chose to do so, in total opposition to what my conscience told me not to do, in fact; I chose to rebel.

No, you did not choose. Your course of action was locked into place as soon as God made the plan. You had zero say in the matter.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why are you asking me to explain an impossibility that I do not claim? You're the one making impossible claims (that a "choice" of one option is actually a choice).


And there's you just asserting complete predestination again. Free will says that where a choice must be made we may end up following one path, but a different choice would lead down a different path. If only one option is available, there is no choice and there is no free will. Read that 100 times and see if you can understand what it means, because so far you have shown a complete lack of understanding.

"Free Will"! Almost you convince me to abandon the term, by which I mean mere CHOICE! Real and actual choice. You do indeed have responsible choice.

I do not claim you only have one choice. I do claim you will choose only one choice.

But even Free Will, that, as you claim, says you "may" end up following one path, can be demonstrated to result in indeed only that one path; that is, that you "will" end up following that one path, that you chose. No nebulous "may" about it.

Where do you get that one option only is available to you? Can you show me where I said that? (I may have misspoken, but I don't think I said you have only one option --you will choose as you wish.) Kylie has a way of saying "outcome" when she should have said "choice" and vice-versa. Yes, there will be only one RESULT, but you had options from which to choose, and choose you did, demonstrating which RESULT was predestined. Therefore, which choice you made, was also predestined.

You no doubt at this point will throw up your hands, saying, "THERE! Did you not just now say my choices were predestined? THAT contradicts the claim that there were options available to me --they were not actual options!" Well, no, you thought they were, and so you chose from among them.

And again, even if you deny First Cause is God, but only some inanimate fact --If that is where cause and effect begins, it irrevocably causes all things that result, including your choices from options available to you.

 

[Kylie]

Yes, you most definitely are deciding. If you think you are making a choice, you are making a choice. You choose between the options, whether you are operating ignorantly or under illusion. They are therefore options to you to choose from. Since you don't know which one God has set in place to happen, you choose, and you always choose the one he predetermined would happen.

No, it is possible for me to think I am making a choice even if I have no choice.

If I jump out of a plan, I will fall. Does that mean I am choosing to go downwards? No. The fact I am falling does not mean I chose to go down, since I have no choice at all in the matter. I am going to go down no matter what I choose.

 

[Ken-1122]

If, when I enter the room, God knows what door I will pick, then the probability of me picking that door is at 100% already. Since the probability of the other doors has now fallen to 0%, then it is no longer a choice on my part. The number of options I have is no longer greater than 1, since they no longer have a non-zero probability.

Thus I am not making a choice.

Is that better?

I remember a friend and I went to a restaurant to get Ice Cream. The only flavors the Restaurant had that day was chocolate and vanilla. I knew my friend hated Chocolate Ice Cream but liked vanilla so I knew without a doubt which flavor my friend would choose. In your view, did she have a choice?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You seem to have a closed mind. 100% predestination does not negate your choice. How is this not obvious? If First Cause determines that you would, by multiple influences or "causes", choose Door B, even though you consider Doors A and C, not only B, as options, you choose between them! Even if First Cause is inanimate this is true!

Please, define predestination for us. Let's see how it allows for choice.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You say, "Which of these is the odd one out:
1. Any colour you want as long as it's black. *If you offer me more than black, I choose.*

I am not offering you more than black. That's the whole point.

2. Any fruit you want as long as it's apple. *If you offer me more than the apple, I choose.*
3. Any number you want as long as it's 7. *If I have more than #7 to choose from, I choose.*
4. Any decision you want as long as it's the decision I already made. *If you offer me more than the decision you arranged for me to make, I choose.*

In all instances there is a single option being offered. That's a really obvious fact and you refuse to accept it.

And indeed, if I had chosen one of the other options, it would be the one that I was driven to choose.

So now you're driven to a choice, but not forced? For goodness sake, you can't help but trip yourself up because you're talking nonsense!

 

[Kylie]

I remember a friend and I went to a restaurant to get Ice Cream. The only flavors the Restaurant had that day was chocolate and vanilla. I knew my friend hated Chocolate Ice Cream but liked vanilla so I knew without a doubt which flavor my friend would choose. In your view, did she have a choice?

Yes, since anything that prevented her from choosing chocolate came from HER and not someone else.

Let me spell it out simply for you.

If you eliminate options until one is left, then you are making the choice.

If someone else eliminates options until one is left, then you are not making the choice.

How many different ways do I need to explain this concept to you before you understand it?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I remember a friend and I went to a restaurant to get Ice Cream. The only flavors the Restaurant had that day was chocolate and vanilla. I knew my friend hated Chocolate Ice Cream but liked vanilla so I knew without a doubt which flavor my friend would choose.

Really? Perhaps you don't understand probability, but if there was even a vanishingly small possibility she would choose chocolate you didn't know "without a doubt".

In your view, did she have a choice?

Yes. The potential options would include things like "no ice cream", "chocolate (and I'll give it to somebody else)", "chocolate (and I'll taste to see if I have changed my likes/dislikes)", "chocolate (because I want to surprise Ken-1122)" etc

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, since anything that prevented her from choosing chocolate came from HER and not someone else.

Let me spell it out simply for you.

If you eliminate options until one is left, then you are making the choice.

If someone else eliminates options until one is left, then you are not making the choice.

How many different ways do I need to explain this concept to you before you understand it?

So just because God know which room we will choose, does not mean any of our options have been eliminated, thus we still have free will

 

[Ken-1122]

Really? Perhaps you don't understand probability, but if there was even a vanishingly small possibility she would choose chocolate you didn't know "without a doubt".

Actually I did know without a doubt. However; just because I know something without any doubt does not exclude the possibility that I could be wrong.

Yes. The potential options would include things like "no ice cream", "chocolate (and I'll give it to somebody else)", "chocolate (and I'll taste to see if I have changed my likes/dislikes)", "chocolate (because I want to surprise Ken-1122)" etc

No, the probability of her choice being anything other than choosing vanilla Ice Cream, was the same probably of Kylie choosing a different door than the one God knew she would choose.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

No, the probability of her choice being anything other than choosing vanilla Ice Cream, was the same probably of Kylie choosing a different door than the one God knew she would choose.

If that is the case you have not shared all relevant information, so your scenario setting was misleading. I gave you a number of possible options, you have not explained why they were not options.

You also appear to be confusing the restaurant offering multiple flavours with your friend not wanting to accept the flavours on offer.

 

[Kylie]

So just because God know which room we will choose, does not mean any of our options have been eliminated, thus we still have free will

Yes it does.

If God knows which room we will choose, all other options have been eliminated!

If God knows we will choose Room 1, then Room 2 is no longer an option!